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  • The Gospel of Jesus Christ

    Heard of "The Gospel"? Want to know more?

    There is salvation in no other, for there is not another name under heaven having been given among men, by which it behooves us to be saved."

This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world...

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Amen! and you bet... I fully enjoy the topic i do not find it unto salvation....

When i struggle i like to read John. The words of Lord in the Word are very comforting....


That's it,'I'm more interested in central theology and what pertains tom the destination of the soul. All these other things have their place but I'll leave it to some other time. And yes, John is one of my favourite books also.:thumbsup
 
What matters is how the Christians immediately following understood Jesus' words (and John's).


And those who immediately followed Christ wrote this:

the times, indeed, therefore, of the ignorance God having overlooked, doth now command all men everywhere to reform, because He did set a day in which He is about to judge the worldin righteousness, by a man whom He did ordain, having given assurance to all, having raised him out of the dead.' Acts 17:30-31 (YLT)

having hope toward God, which they themselves also wait for, that there is about to be a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous; Acts 24:15 (YLT)

so that you [Corinthians!] are not lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 1:7-8 (NASB)

But this I say, brethren, the time has been shortened, so that from now on those who have wives should be as though they had none; and those who weep, as though they did not weep; and those who rejoice, as though they did not rejoice; and those who buy, as though they did not possess; and those who use the world, as though they did not make full use of it; for the form of this world is passing away. 1 Corinthians 7:29-31 (NASB)

Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, rejoice! Let your gentle spirit be known to all men. The Lord is near. Philippians 4:4-5 (NASB)

For they themselves report about us what kind of a reception we had with you, and how you [Thessalonians] turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God, and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come. 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10 (NASB)

For who is our hope or joy or crown of exultation? Is it not even you [Thessalonians], in the presence of our Lord Jesus at His coming? For you are our glory and joy. 1 Thessalonians 2:19-20 (NASB)

I do fully testify, then, before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, whois about to judge living and deadat his manifestation and his reign-- 2 Timothy 4:1 (YLT)

When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. Hebrews 8:13 (NASB)

so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him. Hebrews 9:28 (NASB)

Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. The farmer waits for the precious produce of the soil, being patient about it, until it gets the early and late rains. You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near. James 5:7-8 (NASB)

Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. 1 Peter 1:13 (NASB)

The end of all things is near; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer. 1 Peter 4:7 (NASB)

For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 1 Peter 4:17 (ESV)

Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. 1 John 2:18 (NASB)

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, Revelation 1:1 (NASB)

Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near. Revelation 1:3 (NASB)

~'Therefore repent; or else I am coming to you quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of My mouth. Revelation 2:16 (NASB)

~'Nevertheless what you [Thyatira] have, hold fast until I come. Revelation 2:25 (NASB)

~'Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. ~'I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one will take your crown. Revelation 3:10-11 (NASB)

And he said to me, "These words are faithful and true"; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place. "And behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is he who heeds the words of the prophecy of this book." Revelation 22:6-7 (NASB)

And he *said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. Revelation 22:10 (NASB)

"Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. Revelation 22:12 (NASB)

He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming quickly." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus. Revelation 22:20 (NASB)

Jesus said He would return while some of them still lived and they passed on that belief in the letters they wrote. Their belief in His imminent return was pervasive and overwhelming. If Jesus Christ did not come as He promised them, then He lied to them and they - in turn - have lied to us.

If Futurism is true, Jesus Christ and His apostles lied.
 
If what happened to the apostle Paul is multiplied by 144000 I would have no problem with it.

Doesn't it say about the 2 witnesses in chapter 13 of revelation that the whole world will see it.

How many people around the world watched the Olympics? Who knows what the methods will be, if that is, the pre trib positions correct, which I'm not saying is the case as I haven't made my mind up where I stand.
paul had the Holy Spirit big difference
 
Well this s where for me it gets grey. But if the holy spirit is withdrawn and his influence in the world, that is not to say that he cannot still empower these people. I mean, if the 2 witnesses are to perform during this time, what empowers them?
 
Well this s where for me it gets grey. But if the holy spirit is withdrawn and his influence in the world, that is not to say that he cannot still empower these people. I mean, if the 2 witnesses are to perform during this time, what empowers them?

A fast jump from 144000 down to 2 :)
 
And those who immediately followed Christ wrote this:

the times, indeed, therefore, of the ignorance God having overlooked, doth now command all men everywhere to reform, because He did set a day in which He is about to judge the worldin righteousness, by a man whom He did ordain, having given assurance to all, having raised him out of the dead.' Acts 17:30-31 (YLT)

having hope toward God, which they themselves also wait for, that there is about to be a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous; Acts 24:15 (YLT)

so that you [Corinthians!] are not lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 1:7-8 (NASB)

But this I say, brethren, the time has been shortened, so that from now on those who have wives should be as though they had none; and those who weep, as though they did not weep; and those who rejoice, as though they did not rejoice; and those who buy, as though they did not possess; and those who use the world, as though they did not make full use of it; for the form of this world is passing away. 1 Corinthians 7:29-31 (NASB)

Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, rejoice! Let your gentle spirit be known to all men. The Lord is near. Philippians 4:4-5 (NASB)

For they themselves report about us what kind of a reception we had with you, and how you [Thessalonians] turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God, and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come. 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10 (NASB)

For who is our hope or joy or crown of exultation? Is it not even you [Thessalonians], in the presence of our Lord Jesus at His coming? For you are our glory and joy. 1 Thessalonians 2:19-20 (NASB)

I do fully testify, then, before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, whois about to judge living and deadat his manifestation and his reign-- 2 Timothy 4:1 (YLT)

When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. Hebrews 8:13 (NASB)

so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him. Hebrews 9:28 (NASB)

Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. The farmer waits for the precious produce of the soil, being patient about it, until it gets the early and late rains. You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near. James 5:7-8 (NASB)

Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. 1 Peter 1:13 (NASB)

The end of all things is near; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer. 1 Peter 4:7 (NASB)

For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 1 Peter 4:17 (ESV)

Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. 1 John 2:18 (NASB)

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, Revelation 1:1 (NASB)

Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near. Revelation 1:3 (NASB)

~'Therefore repent; or else I am coming to you quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of My mouth. Revelation 2:16 (NASB)

~'Nevertheless what you [Thyatira] have, hold fast until I come. Revelation 2:25 (NASB)

~'Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. ~'I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one will take your crown. Revelation 3:10-11 (NASB)

And he said to me, "These words are faithful and true"; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place. "And behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is he who heeds the words of the prophecy of this book." Revelation 22:6-7 (NASB)

And he *said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. Revelation 22:10 (NASB)

"Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. Revelation 22:12 (NASB)

He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming quickly." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus. Revelation 22:20 (NASB)

Jesus said He would return while some of them still lived and they passed on that belief in the letters they wrote. Their belief in His imminent return was pervasive and overwhelming. If Jesus Christ did not come as He promised them, then He lied to them and they - in turn - have lied to us.

If Futurism is true, Jesus Christ and His apostles lied.


Or, you just misunderstood...!

Quickly or soon, to The Lord obviously means something more that what is means to you. I wouldn't call Jesus a liar, because you don't have the same capacity for understanding as The Lord.

For a day to The Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years is as a day!

Can you at least understand that!

If you still have flesh and bones, Jesus has not returned.

JLB
 
A fast jump from 144000 down to 2 :)

A fast jump from an answer to none. You know as well as I do that we are not agreeing on the role or identity of the 144000.

What I'm asking you is where will the 2 witnesses in rev 11 ( I said 13 earlier, my mistake ) will get their power?
 
Posted by cupid dave
1) Gen 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.
10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?



2) Rev. 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman, (Judaism), clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars (of the Jewish Tribes now that Benjamin had been born since the days of Joseph's dream):
Rev. 12:2 And she, (Judaism), being with child, (Christianity), cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.


///


Benjamin was born before Joseph's dream. Benjamin is one of the eleven brothers(stars) that bow down to the 12th brother (11th chronologically), who is Joseph.

All twelve brothers are symbolic of Israel, which is why Rev 12 mentions twelve stars.


Hmmm...

Well Rachel died in the child birth of Benjamin, and she was still alive atthe time of the dream...


Although the record of Benjamin's birth is found in Genesis chapter 35, his birth took place at around the time of Joseph's dream.
Notice here that Joseph's mother is mentioned as though she were alive (and therefore had not yet died in childbirth) and that his dream mentioned 11 stars.


Joseph could not have known he was to have a brother instead of a sister.
 
I intepret signs differently.

Woman - Israel
Child - Jesus Christ
Dragon - Satan
Horns, heads etc - Roman Empire with imperial provinces ruled by 7 client kings and 10 senatorial provinces ruled by governers as one have kingdom and other doesnt as in prophecy.

As I said, the identity of Christ is so important for this prophecy. Without that fooundation everything fails.


I believe you ought review the child symbolism and consider that it represents the church...

Rev. 12:2 And she, (Judaism), being with child, (Christianity), cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

The heads are the seven heads of Civilization and the ten horns are the rotating leadership of the European nations that once composed the Roman Empire which crumbled into a more genral Western Culture:


seven_headed_beast_2.jpg



This compare well with Rev 17:3.


Rev. 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in (the) heaven, (i.e.; in John’s mind, the kingdom within); and behold a great red (satanic sexually permissive cultural) dragon, (the mythological based paganism, that system of sexual exploitation and theft: [Zech 5]) having seven (political and economic) heads (i.e.; systems of western world empire):

1) Egypt,
(2) Assyria,
(3) Babylon,
(4) Persia/Mede
(5) Greece,
(6) Rome, and the whole of the…
(7) Western Culture to follow)

…and ten horns (of sequential national leadership upon that last head:

1. Undivided Empire: Diocletian:capital Rome: [305 AD],
2. Western Roman Empire: (Romulus Augustus): [to 476 AD],
3. Eastern Roman: Byzantine Empire, [1453 AD]
4. Charlemagne,
5. Holy Roman Empire,
6. Italy,
7. Spain,
8. France,
9. Britain,
10. Nazi Germany.

…and seven crowns (of Empire) upon his heads.

Rev. 12:4 And his tail drew (behind him, his ancient legacy of Astrology), the third part of the (ten) stars of heaven, (Uranus, 1781 AD, Neptune, 1845 AD, and Pluto, 1930 AD), and did cast them (to mark the time of these prophecies by this Sidereal Clock), to all (those upon) the earth: and the dragon, (Satan and the Devil, i.e.; Paganism, that SYSTEM OF LOOSE SEXUAL MORES) stood (during the short reign, 360-63 AD, of Julian the Apostate), before the woman (of the Judeo-Christian Church) which was ready to be delivered (by the coming mandate of Theo I) for to devour her child, (The Church), as soon as it was born.

Rev. 12:5 And she, (Judeo-Christianity), brought forth (in resurrected spirit), a man child, (the Christian Church), who was to rule (a mandatory Christianized Rome beginning in 380AD) with an iron rod, (the Bible): and her child, (the Universal Christian Church), was CAUGHT UP unto God (taken by force: [Hebrew: harpazo]i.e., into The Roman Catholic Church by mandate of Theo I) and to His throne, (The Bible).
 
A fast jump from an answer to none. You know as well as I do that we are not agreeing on the role or identity of the 144000.

What I'm asking you is where will the 2 witnesses in rev 11 ( I said 13 earlier, my mistake ) will get their power?

Sorry i skipped .... I will go do some reading before i give an answer.... My thoughts on the 2 may be way off yours....
 
What I'm asking you is where will the 2 witnesses in rev 11 will get their power?



Power?
The two witnesses are still with unless Iran gets its way:


Rev. 11:7 And when they, (the House of Jacob and the house of Judah, the two witnesses), shall have finished their testimony (against their own suffering messiah), the (seven headed) beast (of Western civilization) that (had) ascendeth out of the bottomless pit (in The Renaissance) shall make (secular) war against them, (these Jews of the diaspora), and shall overcome them (in 1942), and kill them (with gas and starvation and brutalities).

Rev. 11:8 And, (the House of Jacob and the house of Judah), their dead bodies shall lie in the street (of Nazi Paganism) of the great city (which is the tenth horn of Western Civilization), which spiritually (in its philosophical outlook) is called Sodom, (i.e.; a place practicing pagan sexual license and libidinal excess) and (that ancient place of Jew trust in the shadow of) Egypt, (the time of their confusion: [Isa. 30:2-3]: Egypt, the land of both their beloved Joseph and also, their slavery), where, (in their blindness of scriptural truth) also our Lord was crucified (among them in 32 AD).

Rev. 11:9 And they of the (the gentile) people and kindreds and tongues (in the lands of the Jewish dispersion, from the time of the beginning of the construction of the abomination of the Dome of the Rock in 688AD until 1948, i.e., 1260 years) among them, (during the Diaspora), and nations (both) shall see their dead bodies (in Concentration Camps) three days (of years, i.e.; 1260) and an half, (1942-1945), and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves (but disposed of in the Crematoriums).

 
If the 2 witnesses are a future event, and if the 144,000 are a future event, then are the seals also future? Are the seven churches also future? Is everything to be considered future, or are some things historical?
 
If the 2 witnesses are a future event, and if the 144,000 are a future event, then are the seals also future? Are the seven churches also future? Is everything to be considered future, or are some things historical?


Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter

All three I think.
 
Viewing The Revelation Somewhat apart from 'end times" changes a lot of thoughts.

Down, i am not good with language i hope my thoughts get through my words...

Lots of things come in to play... the times mentioned... How long was the earthly ministery of Christ. about 42 months how long was He in the grave...Who was resurrected.
I dont have an answer as to say this IS THEE answer... .... but i will suggest it might be Jesus and His church...
 
If Preterist are true, then no 2nd century Christians understood the gospel. Your "unique" interpretation of these scriptures is not evidence.

The gospel itself is easy enough for a child to grasp. No one's salvation depends on understanding apostolic eschatology.

My interpretation is neither unique nor new.
 
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