To do or not to do? BIG TIME QUESTION

[sehad]

I am recently engaged and to be married in about a year. I'm male by the way. I'm 24 years old and it may seem a bit young, but I'm 100% sure that I'm ready and that she is the one. But most of my guy friends all 'jokingly' tell me that they were happy until marriage and yadda yadda. There are a few that will have a serious conversation about it with me, but not many have the time. My question, is it worth it? My mother(GOD bless her) seems to want to point out all of the bad points of marriage to make sure that 'I'm ready for it'. I keep telling her(my mother) that I really don't know, and will not until I get into it but isn't one of the beauties of marriage encountering the problems and working through them as a team? And I keep telling her that you can't explain something to someone that has no idea about it, i.e..How do you explain to someone that has never been cold before what it is like to be cold? Same question, how do you tell someone that has never been married about the struggles of marriage? So, all of that to ask this....is marriage worth it?

 

[Featherbop]

I'm 24 years old and it may seem a bit young, but I'm 100% sure that I'm ready and that she is the one.

Why?

But most of my guy friends all 'jokingly' tell me that they were happy until marriage and yadda yadda.

I dought it was joking....

My question, is it worth it?

In my view, no. I see very little value in marriage. What little value I do see is negated quickly by the numerous negative aspects of marriage. If you want to determine if marriage is "worth it," then ask yourself what does marriage offer that you value? Are the possible benefits worth the risk? Essentially, you need to determine what you want and what marriage offers.

I keep telling her(my mother) that I really don't know, and will not until I get into it but isn't one of the beauties of marriage encountering the problems and working through them as a team?

This is a problem....you assume that encountering problems is good(why?), and that the spouse will be a partner/ally. Females, before marriage, sometimes will appear to be on board with you and your ideas, yet only to accomplish the marriage. That is, a facade of being your ally is created to lull you into a false sense of security. After the marriage is accomplished, she can then drop the facade and reveal her authentic self. Men can and do this as well, but I tend to observe females doing this more often and for longer durations.

And I keep telling her that you can't explain something to someone that has no idea about it, i.e..How do you explain to someone that has never been cold before what it is like to be cold?

One can convey a solid idea of what something is like. By explaining certain familiar aspects of various things, one can connect those aspects to form an image, an idea of what the unknown thing is like. For example, you haven't seen Television show A, but I can tell you about aspects of Television shows B, C and D that are in common with show A, and you have seen shows B, C and D. A has a little comedy that B has, some drama that C has, and many thrills that D has. Now you have an idea of what Television show A is like.

Same question, how do you tell someone that has never been married about the struggles of marriage? So, all of that to ask this....is marriage worth it?

Have conversations with a variety of married people. Talk to couples, and also to married men alone(the men can talk with increased honesty without the wife's presence). Research. Perhaps most importantly, be realistic. You won't fare well if you entertain romantic notions of marriage-those ideas do not ring true.

If you do those things, you should be able to make a wise decision.

 

[sehad]

Thanks for your reply. It seems that you are set against marriage? Hopefully this is not because a marriage you have been in has failed. Well, I let GOD pick this one. I was ready to ask another to marry me, and it didn't work out. I can see now that if it would have I would have been miserablel, so I prayed and prayed about this one and as I said earlier I'm 100% sure she's the one for me. I mean, marriage is an institution set forth by GOD and his word says he that finds a wife finds a good thing. Just wondering if being happy in marriage is a rare thing and why.

 

[Nikki]

Featherbop has had issues with marriage since he/she first came to this board.

I got married at 18. That was young! I will tell you that it was no picnic at first. In fact, our first year was horrible. I did not adjust well to marriage at first. I was still a child maturity-wise and had a lot of growing up to do. I had to grow up real quick! I was also pretty spoiled as a kid (never had to learn to cook, do laundry, etc), so it was a shock when I realized that I had to do my own laundry and cook!
:

We have now been married for almost 11 years and I can't imagine life any other way. We're best friends. It just seems weird to think of life without my hubby. We still have our disagreements, but doesn't everyone? You don't have to be married to have disagreements or arguments. I think a lot of people these days get married for the wrong reasons. It sounds like you know what you're doing and you're not rushing into marriage.

Follow your heart. Don't listen to what others say.

I would strongly recommend pre-marital counseling though before you get married. While we didn't think it was worth it in the beginning of our marriage, we soon realized that it was totally worth it.

 

[sehad]

Thanks for your reply Nikki. This is what I'm getting from my friends also. Women tend to LOVE marriage while most of their husbands don't. Is this the general consensus of all men? Is there any guys that like marriage and wouldn't do it over if they had the chance to?

 

[thessalonian]

Thanks for your reply Nikki. This is what I'm getting from my friends also. Women tend to LOVE marriage while most of their husbands don't. Is this the general consensus of all men? Is there any guys that like marriage and wouldn't do it over if they had the chance to?

Marriage is not easy. I do love my marriage however and would do it all over again if I had the chance. From a growth perspective looking back at my single days I can see the hand of God in bringing about our sanctificatino through married life. I've grown in love for my wife but the growth is more logical, knowing the kind of woman she is.

blessings

 

[Featherbop]

It seems that you are set against marriage?

I do have many critisisms of marriage, and I see relatively few positive aspects. I am not so set against marriage itself as I am against the foolish choices I see the vast majority of married people making.

Hopefully this is not because a marriage you have been in has failed.

No. None of my views of marriage are derived from my personal experiences.

Well, I let GOD pick this one.

Which doesn't mean anything unless God materialized to you and verbally or otherwise tangibly conveyed his wishes regarding your spouse to you.

I was ready to ask another to marry me, and it didn't work out.

So this new one you want to marry is essentially a rebound?

I can see now that if it would have I would have been miserablel, so I prayed and prayed about this one and as I said earlier I'm 100% sure she's the one for me.

Why?

I mean, marriage is an institution set forth by GOD and his word says he that finds a wife finds a good thing.

Marriage has evolved since then. The result of marriage evolving throughout human civilization is essentially that we have a counterfeit of the "real" institution(assuming that is the one set forth by God). At very least, modern marriage is nothing more than a shadow of a vastly different and ancient institution.

Just wondering if being happy in marriage is a rare thing and why.

Exceedingly rare, at least in the U.S.

The divorce rate is half the marriage rate. It should be safe to assume that divorces are not the result of happiness in a marriage. Of the marriages that do not end in divorce, that does not indicate what percent of those marriages are happy, and to what extent. I tend to observe nine of ten marriages as being unhappy for those involved. The one left even then is not something I see as desirable. That is just my perception however; my ideal for happiness may be wildly different from your own.

Why? I won't begin a lengthy detailed list of reasons, but suffice it to say for now that marriage suffers from a few but lethal difficulties:

1. Marriage in the U.S. and presumably most or all Western nations is still under the attack of feminism. Feministic attack is more indirect now than it was-it's influences, ideals, and the like continue in the minds of many females today. Feminism and traditional marriage are entirely opposed on all accounts, and since feminism is a social, political and religious movement, it seeps into society more and more. Therefore, marriage is not equipped to handle such an attack.

2. Marriage now carries greatly increased burden and pressure. Marriage is now a 50+ year commitment, compared to 20 or so years give or take in earlier times. Traditional roles have been altered(due mainly to feminism) and this in turn causes stress on those involved. Two parents have to work to sustain the family, children are cared for in large part by non-family, and the like. Essentially, married people are in more difficult marriages for longer durations.

3. Needs that were traditionally only met by marriage can now be very easily met without marriage. There is easy access to sex, women can support themselves without a husband, social acceptability is now much greater for those who remain single....to name a few.

That is just the beggining. With all these difficulties of marriage, I don't see any point in getting on or staying on a sinking ship.

You don't seem to be too intent on answering the hard questions and objections of mine. Ignoring objections, questions and difficulties will not make them disappear. If you do marry, you will face great difficulties, you do have a high chance of failure, and you do not appear to be equipped for that.

 

[CatholicXian]

The divorce rate is half the marriage rate.

Regarding this, it's interesting to note that divorce is extremely rare (well under 5%) in couples who do not use artificial birth control, but practice a natural form of spacing births like NFP.

Why do so many marriages fail today? Because most people today have no idea what marriage really is (as evidenced by those who promote gay unions, etc.).

Marriage is a good thing, but many, many couples put God and faith on the backburner and this is not good for marriage.

 

[Nikki]

It seems that you are set against marriage?

I do have many critisisms of marriage, and I see relatively few positive aspects. I am not so set against marriage itself as I am against the foolish choices I see the vast majority of married people making.

[quote0ac1]Hopefully this is not because a marriage you have been in has failed.

No. None of my views of marriage are derived from my personal experiences.

Well, I let GOD pick this one.

Which doesn't mean anything unless God materialized to you and verbally or otherwise tangibly conveyed his wishes regarding your spouse to you.

I was ready to ask another to marry me, and it didn't work out.

So this new one you want to marry is essentially a rebound?

I can see now that if it would have I would have been miserablel, so I prayed and prayed about this one and as I said earlier I'm 100% sure she's the one for me.

Why?

I mean, marriage is an institution set forth by GOD and his word says he that finds a wife finds a good thing.

Marriage has evolved since then. The result of marriage evolving throughout human civilization is essentially that we have a counterfeit of the "real" institution(assuming that is the one set forth by God). At very least, modern marriage is nothing more than a shadow of a vastly different and ancient institution.

Just wondering if being happy in marriage is a rare thing and why.

Exceedingly rare, at least in the U.S.

The divorce rate is half the marriage rate. It should be safe to assume that divorces are not the result of happiness in a marriage. Of the marriages that do not end in divorce, that does not indicate what percent of those marriages are happy, and to what extent. I tend to observe nine of ten marriages as being unhappy for those involved. The one left even then is not something I see as desirable. That is just my perception however; my ideal for happiness may be wildly different from your own.

Why? I won't begin a lengthy detailed list of reasons, but suffice it to say for now that marriage suffers from a few but lethal difficulties:

1. Marriage in the U.S. and presumably most or all Western nations is still under the attack of feminism. Feministic attack is more indirect now than it was-it's influences, ideals, and the like continue in the minds of many females today. Feminism and traditional marriage are entirely opposed on all accounts, and since feminism is a social, political and religious movement, it seeps into society more and more. Therefore, marriage is not equipped to handle such an attack.

2. Marriage now carries greatly increased burden and pressure. Marriage is now a 50+ year commitment, compared to 20 or so years give or take in earlier times. Traditional roles have been altered(due mainly to feminism) and this in turn causes stress on those involved. Two parents have to work to sustain the family, children are cared for in large part by non-family, and the like. Essentially, married people are in more difficult marriages for longer durations.

3. Needs that were traditionally only met by marriage can now be very easily met without marriage. There is easy access to sex, women can support themselves without a husband, social acceptability is now much greater for those who remain single....to name a few.

That is just the beggining. With all these difficulties of marriage, I don't see any point in getting on or staying on a sinking ship.

You don't seem to be too intent on answering the hard questions and objections of mine. Ignoring objections, questions and difficulties will not make them disappear. If you do marry, you will face great difficulties, you do have a high chance of failure, and you do not appear to be equipped for that.[/quote0ac1]

WHO are YOU to determine whether someone has a high chance of a failed marriage? Have you sought that counseling yet? I have never in my life met someone that bashes marriage the way you do, and truthfully, I'm sick of it! I get mad at you, but at the same time, I feel sorry for you.

Marriage can be a beautiful thing. Put God first and one should have a blessed marriage.

 

[Featherbop]

WHO are YOU to determine whether someone has a high chance of a failed marriage?

I've determined that by statistics and by what he has revealed of himself. Thus far, he has not shown himself well equipped and prepared for marriage. He appears to be no different than those who go into marriage with his mindset and come out divorced.

Have you sought that counseling yet?

So you just assume my views are incorrect and that I need a proffesional to influence me to change them?

I have never in my life met someone that bashes marriage the way you do, and truthfully, I'm sick of it!

I'm not bashing marriage. I'm giving fair and honest critisisms of marriage.
However, I might as well bash, because no one really answers my critisisms.



CatholicXian,

Why do so many marriages fail today? Because most people today have no idea what marriage really is (as evidenced by those who promote gay unions, etc.).

Essentially, the vast majority of marriage difficulties can be directly related to feminism. I tend to see the problem not as people don't know what marriage is, but rather, that people don't like what marriage is(due to feminism) and thus they attempt to change it into a system that does not function well(but one that is supposedly better in some way). Gay marriage is an excellent example. It is harmful to society, does not function well, and further attacks the traditional marriage by it's mere existence. It would not be an issue today were it not for feminism.

 

[thessalonian]

Godly marriage has not changed. God's grace for marriage for those who love him has not changed. Most marriages are not Godly marriage but licensed fornication. Statistics show that those families that go to Church weekly have a 15% divorce rate as compared to 50% for society. Those that go to Church weekly and pray daily have a less than 1% divorce rate.
The grace of God is what holds marriages together.

blessings

 

[sehad]

I'm 24 years old and it may seem a bit young, but I'm 100% sure that I'm ready and that she is the one.

Why?

As I stated before, I let this decision up to GOD.

[quote:94e54]But most of my guy friends all 'jokingly' tell me that they were happy until marriage and yadda yadda.

I dought it was joking....

Your opinion over mine. I'm sure it was not jokingly with some. But guys, when they discover you're about to get married, will usually get about 3 or 4 other guys around you and tell you about the "mistake" you are about to make. This is usually accompanied by laughter and other things. While the problems may and I'm sure are real, they seem to make light of them in terms of the big picture.

My question, is it worth it?

In my view, no. I see very little value in marriage. What little value I do see is negated quickly by the numerous negative aspects of marriage. If you want to determine if marriage is "worth it," then ask yourself what does marriage offer that you value? Are the possible benefits worth the risk? Essentially, you need to determine what you want and what marriage offers.

Very well said. You are correct that if you do not feel what you want in life is a marriage, you shouldn't get married. Even though marriage is ordained by GOD, I do not feel like it is for or intended for everyone. But just because it's not for you, does not mean that it's not a good thing for some.

I keep telling her(my mother) that I really don't know, and will not until I get into it but isn't one of the beauties of marriage encountering the problems and working through them as a team?

This is a problem....you assume that encountering problems is good(why?), and that the spouse will be a partner/ally. Females, before marriage, sometimes will appear to be on board with you and your ideas, yet only to accomplish the marriage. That is, a facade of being your ally is created to lull you into a false sense of security. After the marriage is accomplished, she can then drop the facade and reveal her authentic self. Men can and do this as well, but I tend to observe females doing this more often and for longer durations. .

Which is why you should get to know them really really well before you enter into a marriage. I have known this girl all my life, and even after that we have been seeing each other for over 2 years. And re-read my comment, my intent was that not encountering problems was rewarding(which you will encounter problems if you're married or not), but working through them together is the rewarding experience.

And I keep telling her that you can't explain something to someone that has no idea about it, i.e..How do you explain to someone that has never been cold before what it is like to be cold?

One can convey a solid idea of what something is like. By explaining certain familiar aspects of various things, one can connect those aspects to form an image, an idea of what the unknown thing is like. For example, you haven't seen Television show A, but I can tell you about aspects of Television shows B, C and D that are in common with show A, and you have seen shows B, C and D. A has a little comedy that B has, some drama that C has, and many thrills that D has. Now you have an idea of what Television show A is like.

I see your point, but explain this one to me. There is a man that has no feelings in is body whatsoever(for some unknown reason). He asks you to explain to him what it is like to be hot and cold. How do you do this? I understand about the television show explanation, but afterall...marriage is an experience. If you are trying to get married, and sit back to watch if it will fail...you should be taking bets on HOW LONG it will take it to fail, not if it will.

Same question, how do you tell someone that has never been married about the struggles of marriage? So, all of that to ask this....is marriage worth it?

Have conversations with a variety of married people. Talk to couples, and also to married men alone(the men can talk with increased honesty without the wife's presence). Research. Perhaps most importantly, be realistic. You won't fare well if you entertain romantic notions of marriage-those ideas do not ring true.

I couldn't agree more with you on this. My brother is currently in his second marriage and I have talked to him in detail. His first marriage failed miserably. He is all for marriage if it is done in the right context and frame of mind.

If you do those things, you should be able to make a wise decision.

Agreed

[/quote:94e54]

I do have many critisisms of marriage, and I see relatively few positive aspects. I am not so set against marriage itself as I am against the foolish choices I see the vast majority of married people making.

This is the people's fault that are married, not the marriage itself.

Which doesn't mean anything unless God materialized to you and verbally or otherwise tangibly conveyed his wishes regarding your spouse to you.

Are you suggesting that the only way GOD can communicate is to physically come down verbally talk to you?

So this new one you want to marry is essentially a rebound?

No, it has been over 4 years since my last "friend" and I have parted ways. I will say this, I am still friends with her now and I can see where I would have had plenty of problems if her and I did get married.

Marriage has evolved since then. The result of marriage evolving throughout human civilization is essentially that we have a counterfeit of the "real" institution(assuming that is the one set forth by God). At very least, modern marriage is nothing more than a shadow of a vastly different and ancient institution.

It's biblical that marriage is set for by GOD, not really an assumption. It was also changed somewhat is the New Testimate by Jesus. I think that marriage has not changed, but our views of it have. The bible refers to someone that is divorced(except for certain reasons) commits adultery. The view today is that we'll try it out and IF I CAN'T DEAL WITH IT, well divorce. Why would you enter into something that was instituted by GOD without asking his blessing and involving him in it? The biggest problem with marriage that I see today is that 2 people try it and (even though not from personal experience) it should be much easier with 3

That is just the beggining. With all these difficulties of marriage, I don't see any point in getting on or staying on a sinking ship.

All of these reasons that you've stated do make sense. But most go against biblical teachings. The MAN is to be the head of the household and the WOMAN the weaker vessel. They should be together in ever decision, but face it........men and women DO NOT think alike. The man should have the ULTIMATE decision and the woman accept it. But, the man is to love the woman and christ loves the church. GOD lets us "have our way" from time to time if it will not be harmful to us or our walk with him. The man should be the same way. GOD has his perfect will and his permissible will. Meaning that may not be what he really wants, but he is willing to give a little because there is really no harm in it.

I'm not going to even start on the gay marriage thing. This is DEFINITELY, POSITIVELY, WITHOUT A DOUBT against GOD and the biblical teachings. I do not see this as a feminist thing though. Men want to marry other men because they are attracted to men. Women want marry other women because they are attraced to women. What does this have to do with equal rights and all that?

If you do marry, you will face great difficulties, you do have a high chance of failure, and you do not appear to be equipped for that.

I agree with we will face great difficulties. Chance of failure? I'm thinking this has to do with the frame of mind you go into it with. If you go in expecting to fail, then there ya go. If you go in willing to devote 100% to your spouse and her the same, seems easy to me. Again, can't talk from experience cause I haven't been married. And you not being married yourself, how can you tell from 3 posts on here whether or not I'm equipped for it?

 

[Featherbop]

As I stated before, I let this decision up to GOD.

Reductionistic explanations attempt to explain everything but explain nothing. That answer does not tell me why she is "the one."

Your opinion over mine. I'm sure it was not jokingly with some. But guys, when they discover you're about to get married, will usually get about 3 or 4 other guys around you and tell you about the "mistake" you are about to make. This is usually accompanied by laughter and other things. While the problems may and I'm sure are real, they seem to make light of them in terms of the big picture.

I'm really not sure what to make of it. You'll best be able to determine if your friends were joking or serious(or both, perhaps?) because you were there and it was directed at you.

Very well said. You are correct that if you do not feel what you want in life is a marriage, you shouldn't get married. Even though marriage is ordained by GOD, I do not feel like it is for or intended for everyone. But just because it's not for you, does not mean that it's not a good thing for some.

True enough.

Which is why you should get to know them really really well before you enter into a marriage. I have known this girl all my life, and even after that we have been seeing each other for over 2 years.

Known all your life as in you have been around her that long or you just knew her early on but did not always keep in touch and be around her? Because if you have been around her frequently and consistently for your entire life(or most of it) then that shifts this scenario into your favor greatly.

And re-read my comment, my intent was that not encountering problems was rewarding(which you will encounter problems if you're married or not), but working through them together is the rewarding experience.

I don't agree. However, assume working through problems with a spouse is rerwarding. Have you ever considered that there are problems and trials that you may not be able to work through? Have you considered what adverse effects the failure to pass trials and solve problems together may have for your marriage?

I see your point, but explain this one to me. There is a man that has no feelings in is body whatsoever(for some unknown reason). He asks you to explain to him what it is like to be hot and cold. How do you do this? I understand about the television show explanation, but afterall...marriage is an experience. If you are trying to get married, and sit back to watch if it will fail...you should be taking bets on HOW LONG it will take it to fail, not if it will.

Your example doesn't quite work. Marriage is not a feeling, and therefore can be observed. By observing and studying marriage, one can form an idea of what it is like. Although the ability to feel hot and cold is an experience as well as marriage is an experience, they are of different natures. Marriage is tangible, while feelings are much less so.

I couldn't agree more with you on this. My brother is currently in his second marriage and I have talked to him in detail. His first marriage failed miserably. He is all for marriage if it is done in the right context and frame of mind.

After giving this new information about yourself, you now appear to be much more equipped to prepare for marriage. I still think there should still be much more to go before actually marrying, however. I was only able to perceive you in a limited light, before you explained more. Merely responding to me and then not being offended and angry was, in itself, a great indicator of your wisdom.

This is the people's fault that are married, not the marriage itself.

I have relatively few critiques of marriage itself in comparison to the number of critiques I have to common foolishness in marriage decision making, beliefs and actions. However, that is not to say the critisisms of marriage I have are insignificant. They are quite large. Yet, the problems with marriage itself pale in comparison to many people's foolishness regarding marriage.

Are you suggesting that the only way GOD can communicate is to physically come down verbally talk to you?

No.

No, it has been over 4 years since my last "friend" and I have parted ways. I will say this, I am still friends with her now and I can see where I would have had plenty of problems if her and I did get married.

Did you see those problems then, or have you only seen them after you two split? See, this is a concern of mine with love and marriage: One may not see(or worse yet, ignore) problems while in love(infatuated). Difficulty will await you regardless of who you marry. Use foresight and determine the difficulties while in love with someone. The primary problem that I observe most people who are in love and moving towards marriage is that they will only see problems with people they have fallen out of love with. Be careful to avoid this lethal mistake.

It's biblical that marriage is set for by GOD, not really an assumption. It was also changed somewhat is the New Testimate by Jesus. I think that marriage has not changed, but our views of it have.

So Jesus changed marriage somewhat, but it hasn't changed? Either marriage was and is absolute or it is not....

I'll say this: marriage has changed tremendously from the begining of man up until now. In terms of duration, purpose, attitudes towards it, politics, types, and in many other aspects....marriage is radically changed from what it once was. It is...undeniable.

I'm thinking that perhaps you intend to argue that God's version of marriage is the best, or correct one as opposed to arguing that marriage has not changed.

Why would you enter into something that was instituted by GOD without asking his blessing and involving him in it?

Besides marriages often taking place in churches, marriage is almost completely removed from God and religion. Perhaps many do not involve God in marriage because God has little to do with modern marriage. It isn't God's same system, and it isn't very religious anymore(excluding the ceremonial aspect).

The biggest problem with marriage that I see today is that 2 people try it and (even though not from personal experience) it should be much easier with 3

I would think polygamy would add(with each additional partner) increased difficulties to the marriage. Although, I suppose that all depends on the setup.

I'm not going to even start on the gay marriage thing. This is DEFINITELY, POSITIVELY, WITHOUT A DOUBT against GOD and the biblical teachings. I do not see this as a feminist thing though. Men want to marry other men because they are attracted to men. Women want marry other women because they are attraced to women. What does this have to do with equal rights and all that?

Feminism has absolutely nothing to do with gender equality, equal rights and the like. Feminism rather, is a term for female supremacy. To make the story short, feminism promotes females as the superior sex, and as a social movement, it attempts to create a female dominated society(as opposed to the "patriarchy" of men controlling society). Human female dominated societies fail. Perhaps the greatest building block and foundation of a successful society is determined by it's marriages and family units. Feminism has attempted to pull traditional marriage out by the root(because traditional marriage is opposed to female domination), and therefore, the (negative)change in marriage is accouted for.

I agree with we will face great difficulties. Chance of failure? I'm thinking this has to do with the frame of mind you go into it with. If you go in expecting to fail, then there ya go. If you go in willing to devote 100% to your spouse and her the same, seems easy to me. Again, can't talk from experience cause I haven't been married. And you not being married yourself, how can you tell from 3 posts on here whether or not I'm equipped for it?

Frame of mind is but a small portion of creating marital success. A positve attidtude is by no means a solution to problems. At best, it is a good setup to begining to traverse difficulty.

I can only perceive you according to what you reveal of yourself. Notice that I used the word "appear" quite often. I have not been making absolute judgments, only perceiving you as you presented yourself.

 

[sehad]

Reductionistic explanations attempt to explain everything but explain nothing. That answer does not tell me why she is "the one."

Ok, I guess I'm going to have to explain this out. I was praying about this one night because I was in the middle of trying to make this decision. I told GOD that I was either going to break it off with her or marry her. I told him that I needed an answer. I opened my bible and read the first scripture I saw(Proverbs 4:13). Even though it is out of context, I believe and felt that this was GOD's answer. I am also an assistant youth pastor and this has been strengthened in my mind due to the way that she helps me plan things for the youth and always reminding me of things that I am forgetting for the youth. We work well together and we get alot more accomplished as a team rather than me or her trying them alone. This is why.

Known all your life as in you have been around her that long or you just knew her early on but did not always keep in touch and be around her? Because if you have been around her frequently and consistently for your entire life(or most of it) then that shifts this scenario into your favor greatly.

Saw her 3 times a week atleast ever since I can remember. She is about 5 years younger than I so I don't remember her ALL my life or all of hers, but ever since I can remember. I went to college and didn't see her as much, maybe about every other weekend. I moved back home and saw her probably 4 to 5 times a week due to me working with the youth. We started dating about 2 years after I moved home.

I don't agree. However, assume working through problems with a spouse is rerwarding. Have you ever considered that there are problems and trials that you may not be able to work through? Have you considered what adverse effects the failure to pass trials and solve problems together may have for your marriage?

Well, biblically with GOD all things are possible. So if we keep GOD in our marriage then it won't be a problem. Not to say that some things will not be hard but we can get through them with GOD. Now, if we don't keep GOD involved, yes there is the possibility that we will have problems that we cannot work through.

Your example doesn't quite work. Marriage is not a feeling, and therefore can be observed. By observing and studying marriage, one can form an idea of what it is like. Although the ability to feel hot and cold is an experience as well as marriage is an experience, they are of different natures. Marriage is tangible, while feelings are much less so.

Ok, I agree and withdraw somewhat on this one. Even though you can get an idea of what it is like, you will never know until you get into it. Now, you can take what you THINK it will be like from another description and see if you think you will like it. My problem with this is that most of the time you get an extreme from one side or another. You either get the really bad part or the really good part. I'm level headed on this and think that it will be between the two(unless I wind up marrying GOD or SATAN going off of some descriptions I've gotten).

After giving this new information about yourself, you now appear to be much more equipped to prepare for marriage. I still think there should still be much more to go before actually marrying, however. I was only able to perceive you in a limited light, before you explained more. Merely responding to me and then not being offended and angry was, in itself, a great indicator of your wisdom.

Thanks for the compliment and I'm sure that I'm not ready for everything but I know that I'm ready as I'm going to be without experiencing it.

Did you see those problems then, or have you only seen them after you two split? See, this is a concern of mine with love and marriage: One may not see(or worse yet, ignore) problems while in love(infatuated). Difficulty will await you regardless of who you marry. Use foresight and determine the difficulties while in love with someone. The primary problem that I observe most people who are in love and moving towards marriage is that they will only see problems with people they have fallen out of love with. Be careful to avoid this lethal mistake.

Very Very Very Very true. I see this as the main problem with most people that are married. The people DO NOT change after they get married, but after married they are stuck with them and begin to notice all of their flaws that they did not notice before. I can think of atleast 3 fights that me and my future wife will get into and we have already discussed some of these issues. The trick with what I've said above is to be able to tell the difference between love and infatuation, which I believe due to my past that I'm better equipped to do than some others.

So Jesus changed marriage somewhat, but it hasn't changed? Either marriage was and is absolute or it is not....

I'll say this: marriage has changed tremendously from the begining of man up until now. In terms of duration, purpose, attitudes towards it, politics, types, and in many other aspects....marriage is radically changed from what it once was. It is...undeniable.

I'm thinking that perhaps you intend to argue that God's version of marriage is the best, or correct one as opposed to arguing that marriage has not changed.

Jesus changed marriage from being a multiple partner marriage to a one partner marriage. That's pretty much it. Man has changed the rest to fit them(ie. they do not enter into marriage with GOD first, this is not my intention). So I guess you could say that I'm going to for the biblical marriage.

I would think polygamy would add(with each additional partner) increased difficulties to the marriage. Although, I suppose that all depends on the setup.

Ok, if I mentioned polygamy...fight #4 for the marriage. I meant the third to be GOD.

Feminism has absolutely nothing to do with gender equality, equal rights and the like. Feminism rather, is a term for female supremacy. To make the story short, feminism promotes females as the superior sex, and as a social movement, it attempts to create a female dominated society(as opposed to the "patriarchy" of men controlling society). Human female dominated societies fail. Perhaps the greatest building block and foundation of a successful society is determined by it's marriages and family units. Feminism has attempted to pull traditional marriage out by the root(because traditional marriage is opposed to female domination), and therefore, the (negative)change in marriage is accouted for.

Totally against biblical teachings and she understand that. I have already made decisions about this marriage that she is not happy with but she took them. I did consult her first, but I think they are best for us. I think you will agree that man and woman will never agree totally but the man should have the final say so. In this marriage she and I both understand that.

Frame of mind is but a small portion of creating marital success. A positve attidtude is by no means a solution to problems. At best, it is a good setup to begining to traverse difficulty.

I disagree. I think frame of mind has a lot to do with it. if you go into it with divorce NOT being an option to you, then you'll try harder to do what is necessary to make it work. If you have the fact that you can back out in the back of your mind, it's easier to throw in the towel.

I can only perceive you according to what you reveal of yourself. Notice that I used the word "appear" quite often. I have not been making absolute judgments, only perceiving you as you presented yourself.

My view of you has changed somewhat since the last few posts so I understand this totally. Sometimes something you don't want to hear is exactly how you are.

 

[paisley]

Is it worth it? Any good thing that God makes is worth it. The problem is not "is it worthy or not?", the problem is does a person select someone who is worthy or a proper match. My father has told me many times how much he appreciates my mother and how being married to her has enhanced his life. Would he consider it worthy? Yes times a thousand! My paternal grandfather adored my grandmother and demanded that everyone who entered her presence give her utmost respect because that is what he felt she deserved. Would he have considered marriage worthy? Yes! My maternal grandfather married a woman from a disfunctional family who could not trust so she could never quite become one with him and was quite argumenative. Their marriage was rough to say the least. Would he have considered marriage worthwhile? I doubt it. My uncle is close to 80 and still takes his wife to "Valentine dances". They are best of friends and lovers. Would he consider it worthwhile? Yes. My brother-in-law has encountered many hardships, but he openly declares his love for his wife and despite their advancement in age, he still wants another child with her. Would he consider marriage worthwhile? Yes! My advise to you is to find a happily married older couple to hang out with as a marriage encourager and mentor. Marriage is worth it if you find the right woman and truly commit yourselves to one another through thick and thin, and if you have realistic expectations of marriage.

 

[Featherbop]

Saw her 3 times a week atleast ever since I can remember. She is about 5 years younger than I so I don't remember her ALL my life or all of hers, but ever since I can remember. I went to college and didn't see her as much, maybe about every other weekend. I moved back home and saw her probably 4 to 5 times a week due to me working with the youth. We started dating about 2 years after I moved home.

Then you have had frequent and consistent interaction with her prior to any romantic establishment? Or did you have romantic feelings for her before?
That will likely affect this scenario greatly. Prior romantic notions put you at risk for fantastic notions that will not hold true. If you knew her for that long duration before romantic feelings developed then that risk is much diminished, and I would tend to think you are approaching the plan for marriage from a rational standpoint.

Well, biblically with GOD all things are possible. So if we keep GOD in our marriage then it won't be a problem. Not to say that some things will not be hard but we can get through them with GOD. Now, if we don't keep GOD involved, yes there is the possibility that we will have problems that we cannot work through.

There is quite a fatal flaw with this thinking:
You cannot rely on her to keep God in the marriage! Regardless of how resolved you are to make God an influencial force in your marriage, she can always decide against your desire for that. It takes two people to marry and one person to divorce.

Even though you can get an idea of what it is like, you will never know until you get into it.

One does not need to require a perfect or direct knowledge of marriage.
A perfect knowledge does not exist and direct knowledge is terribly risky.

Thanks for the compliment and I'm sure that I'm not ready for everything but I know that I'm ready as I'm going to be without experiencing it.

Are you sure you are absolutely positive that you cannot prepare more, get more and better answers to important questions, and that marriage and what it entails in its entirity is what you truly desire?

The people DO NOT change after they get married, but after married they are stuck with them and begin to notice all of their flaws that they did not notice before.

Actually, I dought this is right. I think that the truth of this is much more sinister.
When two people are in the infatuation stages of a relationship, flaws are covered and hidden from the others perception. Those flaws, however, still exist. Those flaws are uncovered after marriage takes place. I do think that the hiding of flaws is usually intentional. Essentially, infatuation is a time of facades, which are created with nefarious intentions.
Beware, this happens universally.

Ok, if I mentioned polygamy...fight #4 for the marriage. I meant the third to be GOD.

:

Totally against biblical teachings and she understand that. I have already made decisions about this marriage that she is not happy with but she took them. I did consult her first, but I think they are best for us. I think you will agree that man and woman will never agree totally but the man should have the final say so. In this marriage she and I both understand that.

I do think that men are much more able to make wise and important decisions than are women generally. That is not to say that I think man is a great and wise decision maker, just that he is better at it than females...
In addition, I do not know if the gap in decision making ability is natural or the result of rearing.

if you go into it with divorce NOT being an option to you, then you'll try harder to do what is necessary to make it work.

I disagree. I tend to think this would lead to an unpleasant obligation, and therefore resentment that will eventually explode. However, perhaps a duty based philosophy regarding marriage will work for some.

If you have the fact that you can back out in the back of your mind, it's easier to throw in the towel.

It seems to be working quite effectively in current U.S. society. There is easier access to divorce and there is an ever increasing number of divorces.
I think the correlation you draw is accurate.

 

[sehad]

Then you have had frequent and consistent interaction with her prior to any romantic establishment? Or did you have romantic feelings for her before?
That will likely affect this scenario greatly. Prior romantic notions put you at risk for fantastic notions that will not hold true. If you knew her for that long duration before romantic feelings developed then that risk is much diminished, and I would tend to think you are approaching the plan for marriage from a rational standpoint.

Was dating the other girl for like 3 years but still hung around her some. I did not have any romantic feelings that sufaced or that I even knew about, but I did keep a ring that she gave me once as a joke. I was dating the other girl and still kept it and I really don't konw why because at that time it never even entered my mind that I would ever date anyone else, let alone be engaged to her. So to answer your question, yes I had frequent and consisten interaction with her as her cousin was my roommate in college and I worked for her dad some on his farm and also went to church with her.


There is quite a fatal flaw with this thinking:
You cannot rely on her to keep God in the marriage! Regardless of how resolved you are to make God an influencial force in your marriage, she can always decide against your desire for that. It takes two people to marry and one person to divorce.

I don't see it as a fatal flaw, I see it as trust. You make it seem as if I will be the one that holds everything up and she will be the one that tries to tear it down. What if she keeps GOD in it and I don't? So far in your posts you have not mentioned me failing once or me changing anything or me hiding my flaws, it has always been her. Makes me wonder why you think that a marriage is destined to fail because the woman turns.

One does not need to require a perfect or direct knowledge of marriage.
A perfect knowledge does not exist and direct knowledge is terribly risky.

agreed

Are you sure you are absolutely positive that you cannot prepare more, get more and better answers to important questions, and that marriage and what it entails in its entirity is what you truly desire?

No. And as an engineer by trade, I feel that no matter how much you are prepared for something it is never enough. There is always SOMETHING that is left out or assumed. That is the nature of being human, nothing done is ever perfect.

Actually, I dought this is right. I think that the truth of this is much more sinister. When two people are in the infatuation stages of a relationship, flaws are covered and hidden from the others perception. Those flaws, however, still exist. Those flaws are uncovered after marriage takes place. I do think that the hiding of flaws is usually intentional. Essentially, infatuation is a time of facades, which are created with nefarious intentions.
Beware, this happens universally.

Thus the reason why you get to know the person past the infatuation stage. I say if you never have a "fight" before the marriage you are not in love at all and are only fooling yourself. No two people in the world have the same opinion about everything so eventually there will be a disagreement. If there never is, WATCH OUT! Only when you can truely be yourself around someone and are not scared of what they think about you is when you can open up and be honest with them. Sadly, some people wait till after marriage to start being honest with each other. I've learned enough from past relationships to know this is never good but does happen.

I do think that men are much more able to make wise and important decisions than are women generally. That is not to say that I think man is a great and wise decision maker, just that he is better at it than females...
In addition, I do not know if the gap in decision making ability is natural or the result of rearing.

I think most men are and this should be natural. My fiance is studying psychology now. They did a study and in that study they asked men and women alike if they would rather make the final decision on something in the relationship or have their significant other make the final decision on IMPORTANT and big decisions. 80% of men wanted to make the decision and 90% of the women interviewed wanted the men to do it. Seems natural to me and I think this is the way GOD intended. The woman is the WEAKER vessel but not necessarily an unequal or lesser person.

I disagree. I tend to think this would lead to an unpleasant obligation, and therefore resentment that will eventually explode. However, perhaps a duty based philosophy regarding marriage will work for some.

It is a duty to the other. You should live your life for GOD first and foremost, then your wife or husband, then yourself. When kids arrive: GOD - kids - spouse - yourself. This is natural, GOD intended, and the ONLY way it will work.

It seems to be working quite effectively in current U.S. society. There is easier access to divorce and there is an ever increasing number of divorces.
I think the correlation you draw is accurate.

The reason for all of this divorce is for 2 main reasons:

1. People are too immature for it when they get married and are not willing to sacrifice for the other's happiness.

2. They do not have any sort of understanding of what a marriage is when they get into it.

Therefore it is easy to bail ship. Marriage will not make you happy. You should not marry someone for them to make you happy, you should (once married) be willing to do whatever it takes to make the other happy as long as they are not walking all over you. Again, from your posts I get the assumption(maybe intentional by you or not) that it will be the woman's fault.

Talking to you through this has brought out some points that I've had to think over but nothing that has even come close to changing my mind. We may be on different extremes. You thinking marriage is almost always bad and me thinking that the right marriage is almost always good. The truth is somewhere in the middle I'm thinking.

 

[sehad]

Is it worth it? Any good thing that God makes is worth it. The problem is not "is it worthy or not?", the problem is does a person select someone who is worthy or a proper match. My father has told me many times how much he appreciates my mother and how being married to her has enhanced his life. Would he consider it worthy? Yes times a thousand! My paternal grandfather adored my grandmother and demanded that everyone who entered her presence give her utmost respect because that is what he felt she deserved. Would he have considered marriage worthy? Yes! My maternal grandfather married a woman from a disfunctional family who could not trust so she could never quite become one with him and was quite argumenative. Their marriage was rough to say the least. Would he have considered marriage worthwhile? I doubt it. My uncle is close to 80 and still takes his wife to "Valentine dances". They are best of friends and lovers. Would he consider it worthwhile? Yes. My brother-in-law has encountered many hardships, but he openly declares his love for his wife and despite their advancement in age, he still wants another child with her. Would he consider marriage worthwhile? Yes! My advise to you is to find a happily married older couple to hang out with as a marriage encourager and mentor. Marriage is worth it if you find the right woman and truly commit yourselves to one another through thick and thin, and if you have realistic expectations of marriage.

Thank you for your post paisley. You make some very good points here.

 

[paisley]

"Did you see those problems then, or have you only seen them after you two split? See, this is a concern of mine with love and marriage: One may not see(or worse yet, ignore) problems while in love(infatuated). Difficulty will await you regardless of who you marry. Use foresight and determine the difficulties while in love with someone. The primary problem that I observe most people who are in love and moving towards marriage is that they will only see problems with people they have fallen out of love with. Be careful to avoid this lethal mistake. "
"Actually, I dought this is right. I think that the truth of this is much more sinister.
When two people are in the infatuation stages of a relationship, flaws are covered and hidden from the others perception. Those flaws, however, still exist. Those flaws are uncovered after marriage takes place. I do think that the hiding of flaws is usually intentional. Essentially, infatuation is a time of facades, which are created with nefarious intentions.
Beware, this happens universally."

Although I don't agree with Featherbop's disqualification of marriage, I do think he has it right on these two points. However, I would not go so far as to say that hiding flaws is "usually intentional". I do believe that does take place, but I think the people intentionally hiding flaws are the people one should avoid because they are being dishonest. I can truly say that I was the same person before and after marriage, and I never would have wanted to present myself as something I was not lest I got married and my husband said, "you are not the woman I married". In fact, when my husband asked me to marry him, I then told him my family's medical history and my own short comings, and my desires for marriage for him to know any potential problems he may not have foreseen, and for him to decide if that is what he wanted to live with. So I don't think flaws have to be hidden. However, I do think flaws tend to be minimized when one is newly in love, and often people do not really sit down and think about how those flaws might effect them later in marriage. I was fortunate though to have a sister who told me to take the most irritating habits of my husband (before marriage) and multiple them by 10 and then decide if I could deal with that or not since flaws are not always so minimal or cute after marriage. This helped me have a little better perspective of what the flaws would be like later on. On the other hand, there are problems in marriage that one may or may not see hints of in the dating stage that might come out in marriage. For example, most people who marry for the first time are young, care free, childless and have not encountered a lot of the heavy life problems that the middle age years bring to families (not single middle aged people), so we do not always know how the person will respond to those problems. In addition, even if we fully understood all the flaws of an individual, sometimes it is just impossible to know how those flaws can effect them later in life because we don't know ahead of time what curve balls life is going to throw at us. I think marriage will offer surprises to most couples, BUT again we have to go back to commitment. We have to have a realistic view of marriage, we have to take care to select a great, Godly spouse, and we should listen to other mature Christian's opinions about the potential marriage and spouse because they may see things that the love is blinding from the couple, but after that, it is all about commitment. The middle aged years are not always filled with all the warm fuzzy feelings of young love. In fact, the middle age years can be stressful years as the couple is trying to pay off loans for the house and car, dealing with aging parents, sometimes dealing with a stressful work environment that can not just be walked out of due to family obligations, kids (life with kids is not always easy and happy like the Brady Bunch), the couple seeing themselves aging, etc, but if a couple sticks it out, I think those warm fuzzy feelings will be rekindled in the later years (of course, even in the middle years you have warm fuzzy feelings but it is not like all the time with young love. Sometimes life circumstances can sweep those in a corner for awhile). I am a gerontologist so I have spoken to many older couples, and this seems to prove true. The problem is many people either physically or emotionally walk out of the marriage when the going gets mundane or tough. If they had just stuck it out, they would have tasted the sweet fruit of their labor in the end. They did not stick around long enough to truthfully determine if it were really worth it or not. Maybe you should be asking older couples who really know the answer rather than younger ones who are having a hard time figuring it out.

 

[paisley]

I double posted by accident so I am trying to delete the 2nd post, but I can not and I have to write something so I am just explaining.