Vasectomy & Tubectomy - God's Judgment

[Sparkey]

Most people I talk to who hold the view that birth control is wrong do so... [for the following reasons]

Greetings, Mountain Man,

That is not my belief but it sounds like part of what I posted may have prompted your reply. Thank you for the thought about "most people". I do notice that it is a qualified thought, that you are speaking about "most" of the people whom you've spoken to and of them, only the ones that hold a specific belief or set of beliefs. I appreciate both the statement and the qualifier.

Cordially,
Sparrow

Where does the Bible say God opens or closes a woman's womb as a prohibition of birth control?

Greetings Obadiah,
I don't think anyone has said that it does [as a prohibition of birth control], in point of fact. My thought (and it is my thought only) is that the Bible does not speak about Birth Control at all. I personally was not addressing that issue (or lack of issue (pardon the distasteful wordplay)) at all. I saw also your question, "Where does it actually say we are commanded to have as many kids as physically possible," but would take that as rhetorical and not as a question that expects a response.

No offense taken here, brother.

Thank you kindly.

~Sparrow

 

[Obadiah]

I saw also your question, "Where does it actually say we are commanded to have as many kids as physically possible," but would take that as rhetorical and not as a question that expects a response.

LOL. Yeah, that was rhetorical!

You had said:

Here it is, in a nutshell: The Lord opens and closes the womb. Is this His prerogative only? Some view all birth control as "stepping over the threshold" and trespass against God.

but you also said you don't really support that. So I was sort of asking this question of anyone who may support that idea, what verses and context are they using to support a prohibition of birth control? I tried looking it up, but everything I found when read in context, seemed to be talking about God giving or taking away the ability to have kids, but didn't seem to be restricting a person's freedom to choose whether or not to have kids or a prohibition of any kind of birth control.

 

[Sparkey]

There is one Scripture about a guy who didn't respond to his wife's desire to have kids. That's not birth control that is being unsympathetic and unloving to one's wife. When extended it means that the Lord will bless us, and that we will be fruitful and that he will not prevent the desire of our hearts. But twisted (my opinion sneaks in again) to mean something about birth control or about other things that we shall not mention outside of the Men's locker room like masturbation? No. I disagree with that commonly held perception but I do agree with you. Surprised? I'm not.

 

[Mountain Man]

No discussion on this topic is ever complete without some judgment on those who don't have children being squeezed in somewhere, selfish, not depending on God ect,ect....a person doesn't have to put forth an argument to be able to make a personal decision in life that is realy nobody else's business to start with.

 

[Sparkey]

Children are a blessing but it is also the Lord who said, "Woe unto them," who are with child in that time. So it's not always the best thing and sometimes it is an inconvenience. Certainly they [kids] are when it comes to travel. You've been in the place where you need to get to work and also want to drop the kids off at school, or if you haven't, can understand the frustration of the single dad who "makes" the kids go to school once in their pajamas. That kind of thing only happens once.

 

[Guest]

I sort of think that it is up to God and rightfully so. We can agree for the most part that kids are a blessing, right? The most used argument against that is usually a financial one. But if we do not worry about tomorrow like scripture says and look to God to provide for all of our needs, what worry is there? The other argument sometimes used is one of convenience, not enough time, not enough freedom to pursue other desires or goals, things of that nature, which I think is selfish in nature and not putting God and his will first.

It seems like there is no consistent expectation of having children. Sometimes it seems as if girls get pregnant if you just look at them, other times people want to and go through many avenues of trying with mixed success. As I look back to my youth, I find it absolutely amazing that I don't have a slew of children. I've never used condoms or anything and was extremely active, yet never got a girl pregnant and some of them we're trying to. I was very lackadaisical about it all. Then when I began being active with she who would be my wife, I think she got pregnant the very first time we did it. Very weird how that went. So I think that the statement that God opens and closes the womb according to his will is very probably accurate.

Good post, yeah before I came to Christ I could of had plenty of opportunities to have children. I did however use protection every time so..either the condoms were strong or it was God's will for me not to have children. Tough question, my view on women however is different now. In my heart I've already made the choice to wait for marriage to have sex again, and to wait for a born again christian woman to grace my presence.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Urk, consider this:
No children, no family?
When you grow old you will be alone.
If your wife dies, you are really alone.
I know, I'm 62 with no children.
I constantly feel all that I've missed out in all my life.
God blesses the family.
No family, you miss the blessings.

P.S. My hardest day to go to church is Father's Day.

 

[Guest]

Thanks urk, my view on women has changed somewhat since walking with the Lord too. Putting God first above the wife can be a challenging thing to do as most women are jealous and wont stand for it. Keep praying for a good woman, it'll happen. I did and one seemingly fell out of the sky for me, praise the Lord! I'll pray for you on this.

Yes, please pray for me, and I will keep praying. I'm specifically looking for a good woman in Christ. It's hard, but worth the wait. ty for your support and kindness.

 

[Guest]

Urk, consider this:
No children, no family?
When you grow old you will be alone.
If your wife dies, you are really alone.
I know, I'm 62 with no children.
I constantly feel all that I've missed out in all my life.
God blesses the family.
No family, you miss the blessings.

P.S. My hardest day to go to church is Father's Day.

Ever since salvation, i've never felt that feeling of being alone. God filled that void for me, with the Holy Spirit. I'm not afraid of dying alone, as long as I'm serving God in my walk.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I think you're alright with getting that done urk. I had one right after my 2nd son was born and have never been even the least bit convicted about it.

Well, one things for sure, once you've raised kids you understand that having children really does involve soberly assessing one's own mental and emotional capacity to do that. The decision to bring a child into the world should not be imposed on someone from the outside. The welfare of the parent is as important as the welfare of the child. The point being, knowing that takes away a lot of the conviction against having a Vasectomy. I suppose it's really only those who don't have children (or maybe just one) that struggle with the conviction against it. The rest of us know child rearing is about much more than just the child. I originally wanted five kids. Decided I wasn't up to it and called it quits at four.

It's not a terribly painful procedure, don't worry.

Agreed. It's nothing that a bag of frozen vegetables can't take care of.

We were active again three days later.

Hmmm....it's been years since I had it done, but I think you're supposed to wait longer than that, lol.

 

[reba]

Another of reba's personal stories;

Our niece, Dawn married Joe he was older had 3 kids ....He had a vasectomy before they ever met. (Severe health problems for his last child and almost loosing their mother so he was fixed! ) Dawn and Joe were married 15+ years they adopted kids beyond the 'adoptable age" You know where is going you knew from the beginning... they have the most beautiful 2 year old daughter Dawn says the Lord blessed her.... We are in His will not our own.....

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Another of reba's personal stories;

Our niece, Dawn married Joe he was older had 3 kids ....He had a vasectomy before they ever met. (Severe health problems for his last child and almost loosing their mother so he was fixed! ) Dawn and Joe were married 15+ years they adopted kids beyond the 'adoptable age" You know where is going you knew from the beginning... they have the most beautiful 2 year old daughter Dawn says the Lord blessed her.... We are in His will not our own.....

The moral of the story?

A VASECTOMY IS NOT THE INSURANCE YOU THINK IT IS! LOL!


I've been reluctant to go there, but, personally, I think it's a big mistake to separate the natural potential for creating a child from sexual activity. God is no moron, and he's no kill joy. He knows us, and he knows what he's doing.

If you want to talk about 'judgment' in regard to surgical sterilization, sex without natural restraint can be it's own judgment.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Hmmm....it's been years since I had it done, but I think you're supposed to wait longer than that, lol.

I was 24 and it was hard enough waiting for 3 days, lol. IIRC, they was wanting me to wait one week.

A week? I'd have to check, but I don't think that's even long enough for all traces of sperm to be flushed out of the tubes.

I recently did a little rechecking of the facts about my vasectomy because I thought maybe the potential to be sexually active again in my marriage was ahead of me (I was wrong, lol, but that's another story). But I don't remember what the suggested waiting period was. For the sake of those contemplating a vasectomy, I do remember another condition that had to be met before you should be with your wife, but I don't think I can talk about that here.

 

[Obadiah]

The other argument sometimes used is one of convenience, not enough time, not enough freedom to pursue other desires or goals, things of that nature, which I think is selfish in nature and not putting God and his will first.

I think men can go against the will of God to not have kids by various means...

God blesses the family.
No family, you miss the blessings.

So it sounds like, according to you guys, that the apostle Paul was out of God's will and missed His blessings because he didn't have kids. At least I assume he didn't have kids since he clearly said he wasn't married and never mentioned having any family of his own any other way. And this WAS his choice.

Don't get me wrong, I know kids are a blessing to those who want and choose to have them. But I can't agree that those who choose not to for whatever their reasons may be are somehow out of God's will and will not be blessed by God because of this.

 

[Mountain Man]

The other argument sometimes used is one of convenience, not enough time, not enough freedom to pursue other desires or goals, things of that nature, which I think is selfish in nature and not putting God and his will first.

I think men can go against the will of God to not have kids by various means...

God blesses the family.
No family, you miss the blessings.

So it sounds like, according to you guys, that the apostle Paul was out of God's will and missed His blessings because he didn't have kids. At least I assume he didn't have kids since he clearly said he wasn't married and never mentioned having any family of his own any other way. And this WAS his choice.

Don't get me wrong, I know kids are a blessing to those who want and choose to have them. But I can't agree that those who choose not to for whatever their reasons may be are somehow out of God's will and will not be blessed by God because of this.

This is common,it is amazing what Christians will readily and with eager zeal rush to judgment on while refusing to judge or take any position on other things that are clearly defined in the bible as blatant sin.

 

[iLOVE]

How does God judge believers on these two choices.
If a believer had these surgeries, how does God judge these surgeries.
I just don't wanna dishonor the body of Christ, of not knowing what he thinks first.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasectomy / http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tubectomy

Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 1 Corinthians 6:19 NIV
Watch out for the "spirit of the world"! Never respond to the flesh over your spirit.

 

[Obadiah]

Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 1 Corinthians 6:19 NIV This is the "spirit of the world".

Uh, are you aware that this verse is regarding a warning against fornication? Or did you intend to take it completely out of context in order to apply it to the situation at hand?

 

[cherovis]

I don't know, I don't see where He says either way. You have multiplied.

Just pray about it urk, the Holy Spirit will be your guide.

God told Adam & Eve to multiply & replenish the earth, Gen 1:28. No indication was given as to the numbering.
In Deuteronomy 1:10, Moses said to the Israelites, The LORD your God hath multiplied you, and, behold, ye are this day as the stars of heaven for multitude.

Does this mean the task given to Adam & Eve has been achieved & the rest is up to us ? Or are we to continue to breed until we can't breed anymore & cause deliberate hardship on others by over crowding & public dependents ? If we're entitled to draw the line, where do we draw it ?

 

[iLOVE]

Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 1 Corinthians 6:19 NIV This is the "spirit of the world".

Uh, are you aware that this verse is regarding a warning against fornication? Or did you intend to take it completely out of context in order to apply it to the situation at hand?

The natural man sees things and understand things through their flesh, while the supernatural man receives things with understanding that are revealed through the spirit.

 

[Obadiah]

Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 1 Corinthians 6:19 NIV This is the "spirit of the world".

Uh, are you aware that this verse is regarding a warning against fornication? Or did you intend to take it completely out of context in order to apply it to the situation at hand?

The natural man sees things and understand things through their flesh, while the supernatural man receives things with understanding that are revealed through the spirit.

And this applies to the subject of this thread how? You lost me.