What about Jewish people?

[paulo75]

Christians will say that the only way to Heaven is through Christ. Since the Jewish don't accept Christ as their saviour, does that mean that aren't going to Heaven?

 

[tim-from-pa]

Anyone who does not put faith in Christ is not going to heaven (i.e. live eternally).

Let's look at this another way. Jesus stated,

For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. (John 5:46)

So, as "discriminatory" as it sounds that unbelieving Jews do not have eternal life, one has to realize that they are actually disobedient to their own scriptures by not believing in the Messiah promised by the same scriptures.

 

[VaultZero4Me]

I tried to look up some things that a theologian that I know from some other boards posted on this. I asked him the same thing.

I can't remember what verses he used to back it up, but he used some good ones, but the view was that all Christian salvation is tied up in the fate of the Jews. Therefore if anyone is to be saved, they have to be saved. Therefore, Jews are still God's chosen people and will be saved. In fact, revelations speaks of the tribes judging mankind I believe.

If I can find the verses he built his argument on, I will post it for you. I found it to be very well documented scripturally.

 

[tim-from-pa]

Therefore, Jews are still God's chosen people and will be saved. In fact, revelations speaks of the tribes judging mankind I believe.

yes, Jews are chosen, but of race. Then, there is the chosen of grace.

The apostle Paul pointed this out in Romans 11:4-5.

If what you say is true, then everyone of the United States, Britain, NW Europe and wherever else lost tribes of Israel went would also be saved (since I hold the British Israel doctrine). But we know this is not true, even though they are also the chosen people that manifested as Christian nations (at least traditionally).

The Old Testament Law, vs. New Testament grace has to do with one's relationship to God. When one has grace, they are the elect of grace.

The other Abrahamic covenants, the Davidic covenant and so forth are national blessings. These are the chosen of race and are unconditional. They are earthly blessings by which the blessing of Christ would be carried out, but the people themselves are only elect of race, a chosen family to do that. This does not mean they all have personal salvation.

In other words, a person can be elect of God by race, and still be lost.

 

[Veritas]

Christians will say that the only way to Heaven is through Christ.

Christians say?

Do you know why?

This is what Christ himself says...

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. John 14:6

I realize people get upset with this concept of "exclusivism" in this day in age. But it's only honest. If something is true, something else is going to be false.

Jesus claims that he himself is the truth..."He" is what is true. You can accept or reject that claim. It therefore follows (if you've accepted him as true), that anything that is not through him is simply false.

Since the Jewish don't accept Christ as their saviour...

That's assuming a little too much. I know quite a few people... who are Jewish AND they accept Christ as their Savior.

 

[VaultZero4Me]

Read Romans chapter 11. Specifically pay attention to verses 18, 21, 23, 25 - 32.

It seems to indicate that Christian salvation is tied up in the fate of the Jews. If they are not saved from judgment than nor will the Christians.

 

[Veritas]

I guess I don't really understand what you are saying VaultZero4Me... Are you worried about your salvation? Or making a point with a "if - then" statement? I hope you don't mind me asking, but is Jesus your Lord and Savior?

 

[VaultZero4Me]

I guess I don't really understand what you are saying VaultZero4Me... Are you worried about your salvation? Or making a point with a "if - then" statement? I hope you don't mind me asking, but is Jesus your Lord and Savior?

I am not making any statement.

The OP asked about the fate of the Jewish nation in reference to biblical support. I merely laid out an argument that the Jewish people are still under Gods grace.

That section of Roman 11 seems, to some, to support that evidentially. It can be argued that Paul is making the point that the Jewish nation still will be saved.

That's all. Just following the OPs request.

 

[Veritas]

That section of Roman 11 seems, to some...

How does it seem to you?

 

[VaultZero4Me]

dunno. do not really have an opinion on it. I just find it an interesting and valid point.

 

[Veritas]

oh... well it's enough of an opinion to consider it valid.

 

[VaultZero4Me]

I guess I do have an opinion that it meets the need of a logic.

By that I mean, under the constraint that God is all-knowing, it is difficult to understand the logic in the historical context of the events of the Bible.

God creates man. Man falls from grace after the original sin. God eventually sets up the Jewish nation as his chosen people. There is no other passage to God for anyone outside of this nation. The overwhelming majority of the OT has God concerned with the fate of the Jewish nation. All events surround that nation.

Eventually, God fulfills the prophecy for a messiah, and sends Jesus, God incarnate. The Jews reject the messiah as not meeting the criteria set forth by the OT. Jesus is sacrificed for mans sin.

The majority of the Jewish nation rejects the notion that Christ was the ultimate sacrifice for original sin, while the gentile nation supports it. The gentile is now Gods chosen nation if they accept Christ as God. The Jewish nation is now set to perish. They are no longer in a covenant with God.

With these events, if you accept that the Jewish nation will perish (post-Christ) you are assuming that God is not as interested in them. He has not sent any prophets in the last 2,000 years to try to steer them back to him through the new covenant of Christ (well, the Jewish nation does not really mention any prophets post Christ that speaks of the need to follow the new covenant). They are no longer his people.

This makes me ask these questions:

1. If God knew that ultimately the Jewish nation would reject him, why choose them in the first place.
2. If he knew that they would reject the messiah that was prophecy to them, why give them the messiah or prophecy.
3. Why not skip the whole 2 - 3,000 year time period of having them as a chosen people, send the emissary closer to the time pre-fall, and give all man a chance to have a covenant with God, and thus be with him post death?

It just seems on the surface to be a bit self-centered to feel that God would no longer be focused on saving his chosen people for the last 2,000 years, and be more focused on the gentiles. Having the Jewish nation still able to reach God through their original covenant fills some of the holes in. They still feel the presence of God obviously, as the Jewish nation still practices Judaism, and it is a strong faith within their community. Why would they still feel such a strong bond with Yahweh?

 

[Veritas]

The gentile is now Gods chosen nation if they accept Christ as God. The Jewish nation is now set to perish. They are no longer in a covenant with God.

And what is this gentile "nation"? Remember what Christ told us? ...His kingdom is not of this world. (John 18:36) There is a new covenant and those believers who are Jewish are one body with those who are gentile through Christ. (Ephesians 3:6) We share!

1. If God knew that ultimately the Jewish nation would reject him, why choose them in the first place.

Why not?... don't we all reject God and His Will? Some completely reject Him and that is tragic, but even believers slip and fall into sin.

2. If he knew that they would reject the messiah that was prophecy to them, why give them the messiah or prophecy.

For us.
...And not all rejected the messiah.

3. Why not skip the whole 2 - 3,000 year time period of having them as a chosen people, send the emissary closer to the time pre-fall, and give all man a chance to have a covenant with God, and thus be with him post death?

Because it works better the way He's done it.

It just seems on the surface to be a bit self-centered to feel that God would no longer be focused on saving his chosen people for the last 2,000 years, and be more focused on the gentiles.

Well, I'm very thankful I can be considered an heir and share the inheritance of Israel. God always had the mind for widening the scope of who "His People" were.

he says: "It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth." Isaiah 49:6

Even during the Old Testament times peoples of different nations were welcome to join the nation of Israel . This was actually encouraged.

Having the Jewish nation still able to reach God through their original covenant fills some of the holes in. They still feel the presence of God obviously, as the Jewish nation still practices Judaism, and it is a strong faith within their community. Why would they still feel such a strong bond with Yahweh?

Because they are reading His Word!

 

[VaultZero4Me]

Veritas:

And what is this gentile "nation"? Remember what Christ told us? ...His kingdom is not of this world. (John 18:36) There is a new covenant and those believers who are Jewish are one body with those who are gentile through Christ. (Ephesians 3:6) We share!

All of those who are not descendants of the tribes.

Why not?... don't we all reject God and His Will? Some completely reject Him and that is tragic, but even believers slip and fall into sin.

But thats the point. Why not make the covenant open to all in the beginning. Why the period of exclusion, if in the end, the chosen ones parish. Just reasons better if they are still the chosen ones, and salvation is still part of them through the final sacrifice.

Again, I do not hold one of the other. Thats just how it seems to me.

For us.
...And not all rejected the messiah.

I stated that. One of the early founders was of course a Jew. Paul.

Because it works better the way He's done it.

But that is circular. Would not God expect man to use the reasoning skills given to understand scripture? The same with science.

If it seems more reasonable that Matthew 4:8-10 is metaphorical, because we now know the earth is round, why not accept it as such? I would assume that you find no fault in using your reason in that case, why not in interpretation of Romans.

Even during the Old Testament times peoples of different nations were welcome to join the nation of Israel . This was actually encouraged.

Where is this supported in the OT? I do not know of OT conversions except for the wives of slain enemies in battle, or that if one shares the passover, he must be circumcised.

Because they are reading His Word!

That is not what I mean. They are practicing the old covenant and law. If that is no longer binding, and you can only come to God but through Christ, there should be no spirituality associated with practicing Judaism. Yet, it flourishes.

 

[Veritas]

Hmm... VaultZero4Me, did you understand what I was implying by pointing towards John 18:36 and Ephesians 3:6?

I also think a life with God was expressly open to all at the very beginning. Actually, I believe God has always been open to all. We leave him and we exclude ourselves from His grace. But yes, He did choose His people to demonstrate Himself in a very full way. If you think it reasons better the way you think then, OK. I disagree ...but I know some other Christians disagree with me as well on this very point. I don't think someone's understanding of this is going to make or break their salvation.

But that is circular. Would not God expect man to use the reasoning skills given to understand scripture? The same with science.

Yes, I think God does expect man to use reasoning skills to understand scripture... but also not to limit ourselves by the limits of our reason. I believe God to be good and His ways to be best; I've also seen things in my life that by my reason I thought were bad, yet God was able to make an incredible good out of it. ...that is why I said it works better the way He's done it.

I'm actually not reading the verses you gave in Romans 11 metaphorically (although some of the Bible is literally metaphoical). I am reading Romans 11 in what I believe to be the context of what is found throughout other verses in the Bible. So yes, as I said, I disagree. And in fact, I think your stance is unreasonable because you are not taking that into account. But again, I don't think a misunderstanding of this will make or break a believers salvation.

Where is this supported in the OT? I do not know of OT conversions except for the wives of slain enemies in battle, or that if one shares the passover, he must be circumcised.

Abram, Naaman, The entire city of Ninevah after hearing Jonah, the sailors on the boat with Jonah, Ruth, the prostitute Rahab and her family at Jericho are a few

They are practicing the old covenant and law. If that is no longer binding, and you can only come to God but through Christ, there should be no spirituality associated with practicing Judaism. Yet, it flourishes.

...And there is spirituality associated with Hindusim, Buhdism, Taoism, Islam, etc. etc.

All a man's ways seem right to him, but the LORD weighs the heart. Proverbs 21:2

 

[VaultZero4Me]

Yes, I think God does expect man to use reasoning skills to understand scripture... but also not to limit ourselves by the limits of our reason. I believe God to be good and His ways to be best; I've also seen things in my life that by my reason I thought were bad, yet God was able to make an incredible good out of it. ...that is why I said it works better the way He's done it.

But that's a false comparison. Something happens to you in life, it is a not objectionable. For instance, you do not get the job you wanted. You can say, well that wasn't in his plain. You can not argue the fact that you did not get the job.

We can argue if they are given grace still. That is not anything you can show one way or the other definitive. Therefore you can not say that it works that way because God knows best, because you cannot say that they do not have grace definitively. That is left to an interpretation of scripture.

I'm actually not reading the verses you gave in Romans 11 metaphorically (although some of the Bible is literally metaphoical). I am reading Romans 11 in what I believe to be the context of what is found throughout other verses in the Bible. So yes, as I said, I disagree. And in fact, I think your stance is unreasonable because you are not taking that into account. But again, I don't think a misunderstanding of this will make or break a believers salvation.

I didn't imply it was metaphorical, my comparison is to say modern day interpretation does not = truth.

Just because that verse in I gave was not interpreted to be metaphorical before it was commonly understood the earth was round, does not mean it could not be interpreted as such.

It may be a bad example of what I am trying to explain. I am not saying Romans is a metaphor, I do not believe the evidence is for such. I believe that even when taken into context, it can be interpreted to state that the Jewish nation still has a covenant, even though they do not accept Christ as incarnate.

Abram, Naaman, The entire city of Ninevah after hearing Jonah, the sailors on the boat with Jonah, Ruth, the prostitute Rahab and her family at Jericho are a few

I will look into this later and discuss more on it. Not enough time right now.

...And there is spirituality associated with Hindusim, Buhdism, Taoism, Islam, etc. etc.

So do you assume that their spirituality comes from God, or are they fooling them self?

If you believe that they are fooling them self, is that the same you feel about Judaism? That it is not a connection with Yahweh, but rather something else?

 

[Washington2008]

simple answer, no they will not inherit the Kingdom of God. This is why it's so important that we reach out to them and embrace them. Befriend them and lead them to the Lord

 

[VaultZero4Me]

Abram, Naaman, The entire city of Ninevah after hearing Jonah, the sailors on the boat with Jonah, Ruth, the prostitute Rahab and her family at Jericho are a few

1. Abram
I didn't catch this one at first, but, come one. You are saying Abraham counts as a Jewish convert? He is the father o the Hebrew nation.....I mean I guess you are right technically speaking though.

2. Ninevah - God sent Jonah to tell them they would be destroyed if the did not stop their evil ways. Where is the mention of eternal salvation for the Assyrians? Or a conversion to Judaism?

3. The sailors repent and make a vow to God, this pleases God so he does not destroy them. No conversion is explicit. Nothing learned about their eternal fate.

4. Ruth - Score. Forgot about that one.

4. Rehab - Was converted, but I mentioned the conversion of conquered cities (though this one is a bit different than others)

So I missed two earlier.

That does not detract from the point that God really does not show much concern (at least as evident in the OT) for the eternal fate of the gentile nations. We do not see or know of a lot of conversions, and Lev 19:34 likens the strangers that live among them relating to how they were aliens in Egypt. He then commands them to love them as their own. Certainly this shows that God did not command them to be converted to Judaism, thus be saved from eternal destruction.

 

[Veritas]

VaultZero4Me, if that's how you read them, that's how you read them. I'm glad you looked them up.

That does not detract from the point that God really does not show much concern (at least as evident in the OT) for the eternal fate of the gentile nations. We do not see or know of a lot of conversions, and Lev 19:34 likens the strangers that live among them relating to how they were aliens in Egypt. He then commands them to love them as their own. Certainly this shows that God did not command them to be converted to Judaism, thus be saved from eternal destruction.

Yes, I agree, God commands Israel to love the aliens as their own; however, I believe this is the starting point for a "conversion". There must be love. And yes, in the OT, I would have to agree with you that God's concern for the eternal fate of the gentile nations is not as evident as in the NT... but I still think it is there in the OT, just not as completely laid out.

But that's a false comparison. Something happens to you in life, it is a not objectionable. For instance, you do not get the job you wanted. You can say, well that wasn't in his plain. You can not argue the fact that you did not get the job.

I was talking about the possiblity of working from a premise that is incorrect. I can have a logical outworking from that premise, but if the premise is faulty, the logic is negated. Garbage in, Garbage out. For example, When I was talking about what happens to me in my life I was talking about that initial premise. There have been times I thought something was reasonable; however, I do not know everything and my initial premise happened to be incorrect. It was only later, with more information that I could clearly see the fault in my intial premise. Of course God, knowing everything, can see all the information, and would be correct all the time.

Therefore you can not say that it works that way because God knows best, because you cannot say that they do not have grace definitively. That is left to an interpretation of scripture.

Oh, I see what you are saying. Sure, I could be mistaken.... but I still believe God knows best.

I believe that even when taken into context, it can be interpreted to state that the Jewish nation still has a covenant, even though they do not accept Christ as incarnate.

Oh, okay. Well, then I will compile the context I believe to falsify that. If you'd like to look at that.

If you believe that they are fooling them self, is that the same you feel about Judaism? That it is not a connection with Yahweh, but rather something else?

Yes, I think Judaism, as it is practiced now, is mistaken.

 

[VaultZero4Me]

Oh, okay. Well, then I will compile the context I believe to falsify that. If you'd like to look at that.

I would certainly be interested in looking at that. It was my position that the scriptures implied the jewish nation is lost (except for converts). It was not until I ran into that theologian, and he provided me with scriptural support against my original notion, that my position changed to being not quite sure, but leaning towards the nations salvation.

You bring me the homework for my original position, and I will take it back to him