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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
What does the Word say about the Law of YHWH which, in reality, is the Law of Moses?
rthom7
Member
Don't mean to butt in Deborah, Jocor write well and so do you...it's an interesting read...
Ge 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested "SHABBATH" on the seventh day
The Hebrew word "rest" exists in Genesis....
Its in the verb sense because the noun sense is not yet complete...the Sabbath (rest as a noun) would not be completed until the sun sets, and Genesis account does not do this because Creation is 7 days, not 8 days.
A Word spelt the same is the same regardless of verb or noun form, however slight their meanings....
For example
He went to love her with more of his love.
Is love here written twice the same word, same meaning? or different words ?
Shalom
Ge 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested "SHABBATH" on the seventh day
The Hebrew word "rest" exists in Genesis....
Its in the verb sense because the noun sense is not yet complete...the Sabbath (rest as a noun) would not be completed until the sun sets, and Genesis account does not do this because Creation is 7 days, not 8 days.
A Word spelt the same is the same regardless of verb or noun form, however slight their meanings....
For example
He went to love her with more of his love.
Is love here written twice the same word, same meaning? or different words ?
Shalom
Deborah13
Member
I see in Genesis that the Lord said that He finished His work that He began and He rested from His work of creating the heavens and the earth and He sanctified it. No mention of this day being a sabbath for man.
Ex. 16 is a first mention of a set ritual sabbath day of any kind.
Jews say this is two interrelated commands. 'To remember' zachor and 'to observe' shamor.
To Christians I only know of one 'remember and observe' ritual command given to us.
Luk 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
Luk 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
I don't believe the 7th day sabbath was 'changed' to another day or another day given. The sabbath day is not mentioned past Acts 18, except Col. 2:16 sayings sabbaths, and each mention is about the 7th day sabbath.
Col 2:16 Let no one, then, judge you in eating or in drinking, or in respect of a feast, or of a new moon, or of sabbaths,
Col 2:17 which are a shadow of the coming things, and the body is of the Christ;
However, Paul does address this issue I think of sacred days...
Rom 14:4 Thou--who art thou that art judging another's domestic? to his own master he doth stand or fall; and he shall be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.
Rom 14:5 One doth judge one day above another, and another doth judge every day alike ; let each in his own mind be fully assured.
Deborah13
Member
I think I understand your verb and noun differences. But could you elaborate on what you mean by ...
"noun sense is not yet complete...the Sabbath (rest as a noun) would not be completed until the sun sets, and Genesis account does not do this because Creation is 7 days, not 8 days."
Thanks
Deborah13
Member
I would say that the Law of YHVH is all the eternal moral commandments that are given throughout beginning to end and span all covenants.
rthom7
Member
Deborah13,
I use the teaching of Jeff Benner, he says Hebrew words are made of completed actions (noun) and in completed actions (verb) ....
So for example, the Farmer to produce some produce.
The verb form says the produce is still being made, and the noun form says the produce is completed.
So When God Shabbathed on the 7th day, the rest was incomplete...hence the word in the verb, it would not become complete until the sun sets, but then it would be the 8th day for a Creation week.
Isa 28:24 Doth the plough plough all day to sow?
These two Hebrew words have a single Strong's number....
Mt 13:3 Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
As does sower and sow, one is a noun and the other a verb, same word, same meaning...
Joh 13:34 That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Another example of love as a verb, and a noun, same Strong's number
So clearly the Sabbath word was used in Genesis....
The Sabbath is simply a word that means "rest".....
Rest is important, and in the Father's ten commandments, the term means one can work for some time and rest for other time, because time is an important thing to remember....What do we do with our time ? Well the Bible says to set aside every week a seventh of your time to God or fellowship, and family and relationships with others... this mankind made idea of working man to death with no time off each week is wrong....
Hope this helps
Shalom
I use the teaching of Jeff Benner, he says Hebrew words are made of completed actions (noun) and in completed actions (verb) ....
So for example, the Farmer to produce some produce.
The verb form says the produce is still being made, and the noun form says the produce is completed.
So When God Shabbathed on the 7th day, the rest was incomplete...hence the word in the verb, it would not become complete until the sun sets, but then it would be the 8th day for a Creation week.
Isa 28:24 Doth the plough plough all day to sow?
These two Hebrew words have a single Strong's number....
Mt 13:3 Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
As does sower and sow, one is a noun and the other a verb, same word, same meaning...
Joh 13:34 That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Another example of love as a verb, and a noun, same Strong's number
So clearly the Sabbath word was used in Genesis....
The Sabbath is simply a word that means "rest".....
Rest is important, and in the Father's ten commandments, the term means one can work for some time and rest for other time, because time is an important thing to remember....What do we do with our time ? Well the Bible says to set aside every week a seventh of your time to God or fellowship, and family and relationships with others... this mankind made idea of working man to death with no time off each week is wrong....
Hope this helps
Shalom
J
jocor
Guest
Thanks for your input, although I think my other thread is more appropriate for your post. It is entitled, "The Law of Moses Is the Law of YHWH." Can you repost your statement there? Also, please elaborate on why you believe that.
J
jocor
Guest
You do not have to see "man" there anymore than you have to see "Yeshua" in Ex 12:6. Yeshua himself said that the Sabbath was "made" for man. "Made" is from the Greek "ginomai" meaning "cause to be" or "come into being". When did the Sabbath come into being? On the 7th day of the creation week (Ex 20:11). Therefore, Yeshua is saying, "The Sabbath came into being for man". If Yeshua said that to the Pharisees, he most likely said it in Hebrew or Aramaic in which case he would have said, "The Sabbath came into being for adam."
Yahweh gave us a Bible that contains the OT as well. The NT does not contain the majority of what Yeshua did and taught. Just because the NT uses "remember" and "do" for the bread and cup does not negate all the rest of the remember and observes found throughout Scripture.
The Colossians were keeping the Sabbath and Feasts. Paul was warning them to not allow people outside the Body of Messiah to tell them how to keep their holy days. As of Paul's writing, the reality of those shadows was yet in his future. A shadow cannot be fulfilled until the reality comes.
First, the word "alike" is in italics because it is not in the Greek. There is nothing wrong with esteeming every day, after all, Yahweh made them all. If we choose to worship Him seven days a week, so be it and halleluyah! However, that does not change the fact that as we worship Him every day we must also rest from labor on one day, the Sabbath. It is a mistake to read the Sabbath into this verse. Nowhere is the Sabbath mentioned. Nor can we read any of Yahweh's annual sabbaths or feast days into this verse. There were many other "days" that the Jews highly esteemed besides the Sabbath and feasts. For example, most Jews at that time fasted twice a week (Luke 18:12 and Talmudic writings). The Jews also kept fast days throughout the year as mentioned in Zech 8:19. Then there was the Feast of Purim (Esther 9:28), and the Feast of Dedication or Hanukkah (John 10:22).
The Jewish converts would have probably continued esteeming these days whereas the Gentile converts would probably not, especially since they were not commanded by Yahweh to be kept. However, all men knew the Sabbath was commanded and so there was no question about its observance as seen in such verses as Acts 18:4 and Acts 13:42-44; 14:1.
Deborah13
Member
It appears to me that Paul had no problem with Jews and proselytes to Judaism who had become believers in the Messiah continuing in participating in the holy days. What he did have a problem with, were people, who told the new converts to Christianity that they MUST follow the Law of Moses, per Colossians and Romans for just two.
Not just in feasts and sabbaths but in what they could eat, touch, etc.
What you are saying, is that the 7th day sabbath is commanded, so let's keep it straight about what sabbath day we are talking about seeing we have Christians who believe a different sabbath day, they believe it is the 1st day.
Neither of us believe that it was changed to the 1st day but most Christians will tell you it was.
Act 18:4 and he was reasoning in the synagogue every sabbath, persuading both Jews and Greeks.
Act 18:5 And when both Silas and Timotheus came down from Macedonia, Paul was pressed in the Spirit, testifying fully to the Jews Jesus the Christ;
Act 18:6 and on their resisting and speaking evil, having shaken his garments, he said unto them, `Your blood is upon your head--I am clean; henceforth to the nations I will go on.'
Was Paul in the synagogue to worship and teach the Law of Moses? No, he was there to persuade the Jews and Greek proselytes, testifying about the Messiah. They rejected the gospel and him and so he left and said he would go to the unbelieving gentile nations.
Act 13:5 and having come unto Salamis, they declared the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews, and they had also John as a ministrant; ......
What word of God were they declaring in the synagogue to the Jews? Were they there to worship and study the Law of Moses? I don't believe so seeing in the next verses we hear them say "word of God" being declared to another Jew who would have already known the Law of Moses and to a gentile that was with him who would not have known the Law of Moses but could have asked a any Jew.
Act 13:6 and having gone through the island unto Paphos, they found a certain magian, a false prophet, a Jew, whose name is Bar-Jesus;
Act 13:7 who was with the proconsul Sergius Paulus, an intelligent man; this one having called for Barnabas and Saul, did desire to hear the word of God,
Now we again see Paul in the synagogue on the 7th day sabbath. After readings from the law and the prophets, Paul speaks. It is quite along so I won't give the history lesson that he uses to make his points.
Act 13:14 and they having gone through from Perga, came to Antioch of Pisidia, and having gone into the synagogue on the sabbath-day, they sat down,
Act 13:15 and after the reading of the law and of the prophets, the chief men of the synagogue sent unto them, saying, `Men, brethren, if there be a word in you of exhortation unto the people--say on.'
Act 13:16 And Paul having risen, and having beckoned with the hand, said, `Men, Israelites, and those fearing God, hearken:..........
Those that were there in the synagogue were Jews and proselytes to Judaism. He tells them that the one they had judged, the Messiah, had fulfilled the prophets that they were reading every 7th day sabbath. He was proclaiming the gospel to them.
Act 13:26 `Men, brethren, sons of the race of Abraham, and those among you fearing God, to you was the word of this salvation sent,
Act 13:27 for those dwelling in Jerusalem, and their chiefs, this one not having known, also the voices of the prophets, which every sabbath are being read--having judged him --did fulfil, ......
Act 13:32 `And we to you do proclaim good news--that the promise made unto the fathers,........
The synagogue gathering is dismissed, Paul leaves and Jews and proselytes follow him and the gentile nations ask to hear ''the word of God" the "good news". The following 7th day sabbath the people of the city gather, not in the synagogue, to hear the "good news". The Jews aren't happy and contradict him and he said that he had to first bring "the word of God", "the good news", to them before going to the gentile nations, which he had done the previous sabbath.
Act 13:42 And having gone forth out of the synagogue of the Jews, the nations were calling upon them that on the next sabbath these sayings may be spoken to them,
Act 13:43 and the synagogue having been dismissed, many of the Jews and of the devout proselytes did follow Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, were persuading them to remain in the grace of God.
Act 13:44 And on the coming sabbath, almost all the city was gathered together to hear the word of God,
Act 13:45 and the Jews having seen the multitudes, were filled with zeal, and did contradict the things spoken by Paul--contradicting and speaking evil.
Act 13:46 And speaking boldly, Paul and Barnabas said, `To you it was necessary that first the word of God be spoken, and seeing ye do thrust it away, and do not judge yourselves worthy of the life age-during, lo, we do turn to the nations;....
We could keep looking at each verse through Acts 18 but they show they same thing. Paul went to the Jewish synagogues, on the 7th day sabbath, to bring the "word of God", "good news", to the Jews and the proselytes to Judaism. I never see in all the verses that gentile believers in Messiah are in the synagogues on the 7th day sabbath.
So my question to you is this... Was Paul in sin during the 14 yrs. that he never went to Jerusalem for the 3 festivals each year, as commanded in the Law of Moses? Do you think he repented for not attending the Passover, Feast of Weeks, and Tabernacles feasts?
I can't address this first portion of your post in this response or it will be way...to long. But I well in second post.
I really enjoy studying with you, you are gracious.
J
jocor
Guest
That was not what was happening in Colossae. It was not a matter of people telling the believers that they MUST follow the Law of Moses. They were already observing the Sabbaths and feasts. He was against people that were not part of the Body of Messiah imposing their man-made traditions upon the believers as to how to keep those things. The context of Col 2 reveals this. In verses 4 and 8 Paul warns the Colossians about deceivers. Then again, in verse 18, Paul gives his final warning about these same deceivers. In what way were they trying to deceive the Colossians? Verse 8 tells us that they were trying to exalt the traditions of men over the Messiah (verses 8 & 19). Notice carefully the context; the traditions of men in verse 8, 18, and 22. The verses that occur between 8 and 22 must be understood based on the context of the traditions of men.
Paul grew up keeping the Sabbath every 7th day his entire life. He went there to worship Yahweh every Sabbath. After his conversion, he continued to worship Yahweh every Sabbath, but he also saw a great opportunity to witness about Yeshua as well. We are not told the exact time he witnessed, but I would assume it was after the prayers, liturgy, readings and teachings which were all part of the worship service.
Same as above. The word of God at that time was the Tanakh and whatever the Holy Spirit led them to say as witnesses. They were using the Tanakh to teach them about Yeshua.
Same as above. First they worshiped Yahweh and learned from Moses and the prophets, then they witnessed.
The gospel or good news is revealed in the Tanakh as well as through the Holy Spirit's leading.
We could keep looking at each verse through Acts 18 but they show they same thing. Paul went to the Jewish synagogues, on the 7th day sabbath, to bring the "word of God", "good news", to the Jews and the proselytes to Judaism. I never see in all the verses that gentile believers in Messiah are in the synagogues on the 7th day sabbath.[/QUOTE]
This is from bible-history.com:
In the very beginning, believers in Jesus did not separate themselves from their fellow Jews. Like Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, and lesser-known groups, they seemed to form a new sect of Judaism-sometimes called "the Way"; and the first Christians preached in synagogues whose members shared many of the same beliefs and were already familiar with the Scriptures.
Later, as missionaries carried the Gospel out into the Greco-Roman world, services that included gentiles were initially held in synagogues; but soon there were churches specifically for gentile converts.
Soon, the gentile Christianity that grew out of the early churches began to predominate over the Jewish Christianity that was centered in synagogues.
Later, as missionaries carried the Gospel out into the Greco-Roman world, services that included gentiles were initially held in synagogues; but soon there were churches specifically for gentile converts.
Soon, the gentile Christianity that grew out of the early churches began to predominate over the Jewish Christianity that was centered in synagogues.
No, he was not in sin. John 4:21-24 has Yeshua prophesying that Jerusalem would no longer be the center of the worship of Yahweh. The temple would soon be destroyed and believers dispersed throughout the world. However, just because the temple was destroyed and worship was no longer centered in Jerusalem, doesn't mean the feasts could no longer be kept without sinning.
Yahweh now accepts worship on His holy days from any location on earth.
I really enjoy studying with you, you are gracious.
Thanks for your kind words. You are a worthy opponent whom I hope will someday become a fellow Torah keeper.
Deborah13
Member
Deborah13
Member
I agree He would have said "adam" seeing that is the word that means 'mankind' He wouldn't have had a choice in using a different word.
But I don't see in the scriptures where there was any set ritual day observed until Ex.16. The 15th day of the second month. If they had been observing the 7th day sabbath for generations since the beginning they would have known what day it was. If Abraham had been observing it on the 7th day surely they would have known. On the other hand, they would had been in captivity for many years, maybe they had forgotten?
Surely YHVH, would have pointed out that they had been neglecting it if that were the case or that He was reinstituting something from their past. It just doesn't read like it was something that YHVH had required before, a set 7th day sabbath is what I mean.
Yes, and without the OT we would not understand many of the things said in the NT. The OT gives us a physical picture of the spiritual things in the NT. We won't understand why Paul brought up things like foods and drink, etc.
At the time Paul was preaching the old covenant was still fading away. Once the temple and Jerusalem was destroyed in 70AD, the old covenant became fully obsolete. The Jewish people were dispersed. The Jewish and Gentile Christian fled Jerusalem. The reality came, that the Mosaic economy, the shadow of things to come, was over, the substance is the risen Messiah.
The word alike isn't needed to understand the verse but it does make the translation grammatically correct in English.
We agree with Paul, it's acceptable to esteem every day and no day above another.
However, he also said to come together in fellowship and I believe that is very important for the Body and for the body.
I'm confused jacor, if you are saying the correct day to worship is on the seventh day, then why did the disciples and Paul teach it was on the 8th, or first day of the week?
Jn 20:19, 25, Acts 20:7, Rev 1:10
And why do the historical accounts of Justin Martyr (2nd century) and Tertullian (2nd-3rd century) record the church met on the first day of the week at that time?
Jn 20:19, 25, Acts 20:7, Rev 1:10
And why do the historical accounts of Justin Martyr (2nd century) and Tertullian (2nd-3rd century) record the church met on the first day of the week at that time?
J
jocor
Guest
We are not told the “Mosaic economy” was a shadow. We are told it contained some shadows like sacrifices, feasts, etc. Paul made it perfectly clear that the realities of the shadows of the Sabbaths and feast had not yet come because he they “are a shadow of thing to come.” He does not say they “were shadows of things that have come.” He wrote those words long after Yeshua had come and gone.
By adding the word alike, it makes one think that every day was esteemed equally. Therefore, when one reads the Sabbath into the text, it makes it seem like there was nothing special about the Sabbath. False and misleading. It is not wrong to esteem every day, but the Sabbath is to be esteemed above all days. Yahweh made it so. To denigrate the Sabbath to be like any other day is a slap in Yahweh’s face.
Those that honor the Sabbath and delight in it will be rewarded generously in the Kingdom;
“Then shalt thou delight thyself in YHWH; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of YHWH hath spoken it. Isa 58:14
Jacob has not yet received his inheritance. When he does receive it in the Kingdom, then others will feed from it as well.
J
jocor
Guest
It is “jocor," not "Jacor." Here is my understanding of those references:
John 20:19, 25 - Notice they were "assembled for fear of the Jews," not to worship & fellowship. They were hiding. According to Mk.16:11-14, they didn't believe Yeshua had resurrected so they certainly could not honor that day as the “Lord’s Day” or new Sabbath at that point in time.
The next verse (26) is interesting.
“And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
This does not refer to Sunday. Eight days after a Sunday is a Monday or the start of the third day of the week for the disciples. Why, then, isn’t the Lord’s Day on a Monday? The fact of the matter is, the day the risen Savior appeared to men does NOT determine when the “Lord’s Day” is, nor does it negate the day men are to rest from their labors.
Acts 20:7 - What does it mean to "break bread"? Does it mean to take "the Lord's supper" on Sunday? According to Acts 2:42-46, "breaking bread" was done daily. It simply means to have a meal. In Acts 20:7, the disciples finished Sabbath services on Saturday. After the sun set ending Sabbath and beginning the first day of the week, they had a meal together followed by Paul's preaching until midnight on the first of the week (our Saturday night). The disciples held this special gathering because their beloved Paul was to leave the next morning (vs. 7). In the morning, he had planned to walk approx. 10 miles to Assos. Notice he would not take this strenuous, tiring trip on Sabbath, but waited instead until Sunday, another work day.
Rev 1:10 - Is the "Lord's day" a new name for Sunday, a reference to the weekly Sabbath, or a reference to "The Day of the LORD," "The Day of Yahweh"? The latter could be true since John was transported in the spirit to the prophetic time known as "The Day of Yahweh." It seems more likely, however, that John was referring to the weekly Sabbath. Yeshua, in referring to himself, said, "...the Son of Man is Lord also of the Sabbath" (Mk.2:28). In other words, since Yeshua is the Lord or Master of that day, then the weekly Saturday Sabbath is the Lord's day or Yeshua's day. To say that it means Sunday is pure assumption without fact or Scripture to back it up.
However, even if the “Lord’s Day” meant Sunday, that only suggests they honored Yeshua by remembering Sunday as his resurrection day. It does NOT prove they moved the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. They could just as easily rested on the Sabbath as usual, but also kept Sunday special in some way.
As for Justin Martyr and Tertullian, they are far removed in time from the practices of the apostolic assemblies. Once the Apostles and the core Jewish believers had died, the predominantly Gentile church began to allow all sorts of false doctrines in. The wolves did not spare the flock as Paul prophesied in Acts 20:29-30. One of those false doctrines was the moving of Sabbath to Sunday. Tertullian wrote, “All anxiety is to abstained from, and business postponed on the Lord’s Day.” De Orat. c. 17. Yet, how many in the churches today do that? Many teach that there is no Sabbath at all, either on Saturday or Sunday.
Jethro Bodine
Member
If I'm not mistaken the Bible says both. It refers to 'things to come' in Colossians, and to the 'things already here' in Hebrews.
What did the Children of Israel "transgress" before the law of Moses was added?
What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. Galatians 3:19
JLB
J
jocor
Guest
Colossians 2:17 refers to unfulfilled shadows (holy days) and Hebrews 10:1 refers to fulfilled shadows (sacrifices).
Why would we "wait' until Saturday to worship the Lord.
We can worship God any and every day of the week.
One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.
He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks. Romans 14:5-6
JLB