What does the Word say about the Law of YHWH which, in reality, is the Law of Moses?

[Jethro Bodine]

... I believe your motive to be: God is the one that does the saving, and not our co-operating effort.

I believe it is the empowering ability of grace, through faith that enables us to obey.

In other words, grace is from God and faith comes from God; it's our part to respond in obedience, but even that is empowered by His grace.


It was Jesus Christ alone, who lived an obedient righteous life before God, and in obedience He went to the Cross on our behalf and wrought our salvation... if we Repent, and believe in the gospel. Mark 1:15

...and we will continue to be saved if we continue to believe.


When someone is is bound by Satan, because they belong to Satan, even their ability to confess Jesus Christ as Lord, comes from the empowering grace of the gospel.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. Romans 1:16

JLB


PS - Why don't we move this discussion to a new thread called - The Obedience of faith. or whatever you want to call it.

Oh, I understand your argument perfectly. You're saying God gives you the grace to save yourself through doing righteous, faithful work. It's Catholic doctrine.

What I firmly resist is your belief that obedience in and of itself has power to justify. The only way to be justified (made righteous before God) is to have your sins removed through the forgiveness of those sins.

"His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His (free) grace " (Ephesians 1:6-7 NASB)

See, you don't work for the grace of forgiveness. You receive it as a free gift of God's grace. And you receive it through believing, not working. A believing that can then be seen in what it does--get baptized, love others in fulfillment, not the destroying, of the law of Moses, etc. But you have it reversed--you do works of righteousness then you get forgiven as payment for the righteous work completed. And you justify that belief by saying the righteous work itself was completed through the power of faith and the free gift of God's grace. But that still makes it a gospel based on the merit of righteous works, which Paul said it is not:

"5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5 NASB emphasis mine)

That doesn't mean there aren't any righteous works connected with salvation. It means the righteous works are NOT THE BASIS FOR SALVATION as you are insisting. We got the plain words of Paul to put that argument to bed once and for all. This is why there is a great chasm between Catholic and Protestant doctrine. And it will remain as long as we have the words of Paul quoted above.

 

[JLB]

Oh, I understand your argument perfectly. You're saying God gives you the grace to save yourself through doing righteous, faithful work. It's Catholic doctrine.

That is just crazy talk.

No where in any of my post's have I ever said this.

You have continually made up things to try and get the spotlight of truth off of your unbiblical doctrine.

Responding to the Gospel command to repent, by turning to the Lord and confessing Him as Savior and believe God rasied Him from the dead is what Paul taught in Romans 10:9-10.

You have yet to explain what the work is, that obeying the Gospel requires.

You had stated that obedience is a work, something we do.

Then you turn around and out of the other side of your mouth, when asked what this obedience to the Gospel is, you say believe.

If a person hears the Gospel, yet they don't repent, turn to God, then they haven't obeyed or believed the Gospel.

UNBELIEF IS DISOBEDIENCE.
DISOBEDIENCE IS UNBELIEF

6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience. Hebrews 4:6 NKJV

6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Hebrews 4:6 KJV

I'm ruling obedience out as the source of justification.

You are in direct opposition to the scriptures, yet again.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21

The only thing that justifies is obedience.

The obedience of faith. Faith comes by hearing God.

The only thing that justifies is obedience to God.


JLB

 

[JLB]

What I firmly resist is your belief that obedience in and of itself has power to justify. The only way to be justified (made righteous before God) is to have your sins removed through the forgiveness of those sins.

Which comes by repenting, and believing the Gospel.

Remember UNBELIEF IS DISOBEDIENCE.


JLB

 

[JLB]

See, you don't work for the grace of forgiveness.

Couldn't agree more. Never said you could.

Remember you made that up about me.

I guess it's getting hard for you to keep up with all the things you say people said, but the never did.

Sounds like a lying spirit to me.

And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him. Colossians 3:17

I have said we are to respond to the Gospel command to repent, by turning to God and confessing Jesus as Lord.

For confession is made unto salvation... Romans 10:10


You keep saying that I'm teaching a doctrine of works, as if confessing with your mouth is a deed.

Your words are different than your deeds.

Confessing with your mouth the Lord Jesus, is not a deed.




JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Responding to the Gospel command to repent, by turning to the Lord and confessing Him as Savior and believe God rasied Him from the dead is what Paul taught in Romans 10:9-10.

What you have failed to do is show us where Cornelius's household obeyed this legalistic requirement to be saved. I see where they did nothing but hear the gospel, believe it, and be saved, as evidenced by the Holy Spirit being given to them in response to their believing, after which they said something that could be construed as 'confessing him as savior' (Acts 10:44 NASB), not before getting saved as you are insisting has to happen in order to be saved. They prove that belief really does solicit the born again experience all by itself. Just as they prove you do not have to first be water baptized to get saved.

I have said we are to respond to the Gospel command to repent, by turning to God and confessing Jesus as Lord.

For confession is made unto salvation... Romans 10:10

Where did Cornelius' household make confession unto salvation in the way that you are saying Paul means 'confessing Jesus as Lord' in order to be saved? I see them receiving the Holy Spirit from just listening to, and believing in their heart, Peter's message of salvation. Which is exactly the way Paul describes salvation in Ephesians 1:13 NASB...

13 ...after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation -having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise" (Ephesians 1:13 NASB)

That is EXACTLY what happened to Cornelius' household. EXACTLY. You did not show where they first fulfilled some legalistic requirement to confess Jesus as Lord with their mouth in order to be saved, as you insist one must do to be saved. What you did do, was try to say them speaking in tongues AFTER they got saved was that confession. But, JLB, they did that after they were saved, not as a condition to be saved as you insist it has to.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21

The only thing that justifies is obedience.
[...]
You keep saying that I'm teaching a doctrine of works, as if confessing with your mouth is a deed.

Your words are different than your deeds.

You use Abraham's literal actions to prove your point about obedience, not works, yet you are suggesting that I'm lying when I understand your doctrine as saying it's our deeds that justify. Okaaaaaay.

You insist it's not about works--what we actually do--but about obedience, then you use Abraham's work of offering Isaac on the altar (James 2:21 NASB) as the proof of your doctrine that it is not works but the obedience of saying something with your mouth that saves? You're kidding, right? Then you call me a liar for thinking you're saying we are justified by what we do?

 

[JLB]

What you have failed to do is show us where Cornelius's household obeyed this legalistic requirement to be saved. I see where they did nothing but hear the gospel, believe it, and be saved, as evidenced by the Holy Spirit being given to them in response to their believing, after which they said something that could be construed as 'confessing him as savior' (Acts 10:44 NASB), not before getting saved as you are insisting has to happen in order to be saved. They prove that belief really does solicit the born again experience all by itself. Just as they prove you do not have to first be water baptized to get saved.

I have indeed shown where obedience played the deciding role in the Gospel coming to the house of Cornelius.

Just because you choose to ignore the truth of the scriptures I presented, does not invalidate them.

I also showed where obedience working together with their faith resulted in the Salvation of Cornelius's house through believing and repentance.

We know it through the same Gospel that Peter was taught by the Lord, that the house of Cornelius was saved by.

Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand.

We know that they all believed the Gospel and were saved, which means they obeyed the Gospel, by repenting.


Here's the Gospel Peter and the disciples were saved by -

From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
18 And Jesus, walking by the Sea of Galilee, saw two brothers, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea; for they were fishermen.19 Then He said to them, "Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men."
20 They immediately left their nets and followed Him. Matthew 4:17-20


Unless you think they were saved by a different Gospel?





JLB

 

[JLB]

You insist it's not about works--what we actually do--but about obedience, then you use Abraham's work of offering Isaac on the altar (James 2:21 NASB) as the proof of your doctrine that it is not works but the obedience of saying something with your mouth that saves? You're kidding, right? Then you call me a liar for thinking you're saying we are justified by what we do?

I'm sorry you don't believe what James teaches.

My point all along, is to show the work of obedience involved in the principle or law of faith.

Whether Abraham, Noah, or Salvation by faith, faith without obedience is dead.


JLB

 

[JLB]

That doesn't mean there aren't any righteous works connected with salvation. It means the righteous works are NOT THE BASIS FOR SALVATION as you are insisting. We got the plain words of Paul to put that argument to bed once and for all. This is why there is a great chasm between Catholic and Protestant doctrine. And it will remain as long as we have the words of Paul quoted above.

Please show me the post, whereby I said we are saved by righteous works, or by righteous deeds.

We are saved by Faith.

Faith without the act of obedience is dead.

The command of the Gospel is Repent, which means turn to God, by confessing with your mouth, Jesus as Lord.

For with the mouth, confession is made into salvation. Romans 10:10

Now the burden is on you to prove no one has to obey the Gospel, with scripture.


JLB

 

[JLB]

What you have failed to do is show us where Cornelius's household obeyed this legalistic requirement to be saved.

I see. So you believe repenting, which is turning to the Lord, is legalistic.

But persuading people to keep the law of Moses, which is the same as the law of the Lord is really faith???


JLB

 

[JLB]

You use Abraham's literal actions to prove your point about obedience, not works, yet you are suggesting that I'm lying when I understand your doctrine as saying it's our deeds that justify. Okaaaaaay.

Repent means to turn to God.

Paul taught that it is our confession that is unto salvation.

Confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus AND believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead.

Faith without the act of obedience is dead.

The Gospel command to turn to God must be continued to be obeyed.

To turn away from God in unbelief is to disobey this command.

Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
Hebrews 3:12

Unbelief is Disobedience.

Same Greek word.

Faith without the act of obedience is dead.

Believing without obeying is disobedience.


JLB

 

[WIP]

This has been a long and very civil thread so far but I'm beginning to sense frustration and antagonism. Let's please keep our emotions in check. If it is getting too frustrating, maybe a break for a day to catch a breath would be good. Just a thought.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Repent means to turn to God.

Paul taught that it is our confession that is unto salvation.

Confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus AND believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead.

Faith without the act of obedience is dead.

The Gospel command to turn to God must be continued to be obeyed.

To turn away from God in unbelief is to disobey this command.

Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
Hebrews 3:12

Unbelief is Disobedience.

Same Greek word.

Faith without the act of obedience is dead.

Believing without obeying is disobedience.


JLB

What obedience did Cornelius' family complete, besides believing, in order to be born again? Acts 10:43-46 NASB

 

[JLB]

What obedience did Cornelius' family complete, besides believing, in order to be born again? Acts 10:43-46 NASB

They repented and received the forgiveness of their sins and were granted the free gift of life; eternal life.

JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I see. So you believe repenting, which is turning to the Lord, is legalistic.

If you mean works of repentance (not just the believing) that must be done before one can be born again, then, 'yes', that is legalistic.

But persuading people to keep the law of Moses, which is the same as the law of the Lord is really faith???

Faith is how we uphold and fulfill the law of Moses AFTER we are born again (Romans 13:8-10 NASB). No work of the law of Moses, or any work of obedience, besides believing, stands as a precondition to be born again. We are saved to THEN do works of obedience:

"10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus (that is 'born again') for good works" (Ephesians 2:10 NASB)

The good works that new, born again creations are created to do are contained in the law of Moses. James teaches several of these to the church in his letter.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

They repented and received the forgiveness of their sins and were granted the free gift of life; eternal life.

JLB

But you say one must confess with the mouth that Jesus is Lord first in order to be saved. They did nothing to get born again except believe while Peter was speaking (Acts 10:43-46 NASB).

 

[JLB]

But you say one must confess with the mouth that Jesus is Lord first in order to be saved. They did nothing to get born again except believe while Peter was speaking (Acts 10:43-46 NASB).

I have said you must obey the Gospel command to repent, which means turn to God.... Which by confessing Jesus as Lord, is certainly an action of obedience in complying with this command.

Cornelius and his household of Gentiles repented and received life; Eternal Life.

JLB

 

[JLB]

What obedience did Cornelius' family complete, besides believing, in order to be born again? Acts 10:43-46 NASB

Cornelius and his household believed, and repented and received the forgiveness of their sins unto eternal life.


JLB

 

[JLB]

But you say one must confess with the mouth that Jesus is Lord first in order to be saved. They did nothing to get born again except believe while Peter was speaking (Acts 10:43-46 NASB).

Believe carries the expression of obey, just as faith does.

Faith with the work of obedience is dead.

Unbelief is Disobedience.

Same Greek word.

Faith all by itself, if it does not have the work of obedience is dead.

Abraham believed God because he obeyed God.

You can't separate faith or believing from obedience.

If we believe God will bless us with a son, but we don't have sex with our wife, then our believing is in vain.

Are there exceptions to this simple truth, I'm sure there is.

But that would be the exception, not the rule or principle.

What your does, is try to remove the principle of faith that says;
Faith without works is dead.


Cornelius and his household believed, and repented and received the forgiveness of their sins unto eternal life.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What your does, is try to remove the principle of faith that says;
Faith without works is dead.

'Faith without works is dead' is not referring to how a person gets born again.
'Faith without works is dead' is referring to the person who's faith has no corresponding works of the law to validate their faith as the faith that can save a person:

"14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. " (James 2:14-17 NASB).

Do you want to argue that James is saying that one has to help a needy brother or sister in order to become born again? Probably not.
See, you're improperly making 'faith without works is dead' into a doctrine that says you have to do something to be born again. Which we can easily see above it is not.

Peter's audience in Acts 10:44-46 NASB did NOTHING to get saved and receive the Holy Spirit, except believe, the same way the Apostles received the Spirit:

"15 "And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning. 16 "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' 17 "Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?" "
(Acts 11:15-17 NASB).

 

[JLB]

See, you're improperly making 'faith without works is dead' into a doctrine that says you have to do something to be born again. Which we can easily see above it is not.

You absolutely have to do something to be saved;

Believe and Confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord.

Like I said, you doctrine is missing the AND...

Repenting is turning to God, which is to confess Jesus as Lord.

The household of Cornelius repented, and received the forgiveness of sins unto eternal life.

Your doctrine says they just believed.

The scriptures says believe and confess...

JLB