What does the Word say about the Law of YHWH which, in reality, is the Law of Moses?

[JLB]

Peter's audience in Acts 10:44-46 NASB did NOTHING to get saved and receive the Holy Spirit, except believe, the same way the Apostles received the Spirit:

"15 "And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning. 16 "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' 17 "Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?" "
(Acts 11:15-17 NASB).

18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life.” Acts 11:18

These Gentiles received salvation just as the Disciples did at the beginning, by hearing and obeying these words...

Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand.

17 From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”
Matthew 4:17

This is the Gospel of the kingdom that the disciples believed and obeyed.

15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.”
Mark 1:15

Repent and Believe.

The house of Cornelius repented and received the gift of God.

...saying, “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life.” Acts 11:18

Did Cornelius repent?


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You absolutely have to do something to be saved;

Believe and Confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord.

Like I said, you doctrine is missing the AND...

Repenting is turning to God, which is to confess Jesus as Lord.

The household of Cornelius repented, and received the forgiveness of sins unto eternal life.

Your doctrine says they just believed.

The scriptures says believe and confess...

JLB

They did repent. Your problem is you have made a legalistic rule that repentance means confessing with your mouth that Jesus is Lord in order to be saved. Then using James 2:17 to try to prove it, ignoring the truth that James 2:17 isn't even about what you have to do to get born again.

You have to show us where it says they confessed with their mouth Jesus as Lord. Until you do that there is nothing to discuss. It's deceitful to say those present at Peter's sermon confessed with their mouth first before getting saved when the passage doesn't say that. The passage shows us they did NOTHING to get the Holy Spirit in salvation except believe. They didn't even get water baptized to get saved and have their sins forgiven and receive the Spirit, even though that also was technically part of Peter's gospel of repentance that he preached (Acts 2:38 NASB).

 

[JLB]

Your problem is you have made a legalistic rule that repentance means confessing with your mouth that Jesus is Lord in order to be saved.

If you want to call obeying the Gospel "legalistic", that's between you and the Holy Spirit.


9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10

The scriptures says... with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Jesus says... Repent, and believe in the gospel.”

Repent, means to turn to God.

Paul says...how I kept back nothing that was helpful, but proclaimed it to you, and taught you publicly and from house to house, testifying to Jews, and also to Greeks, repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. Acts 20:20-21


...confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.


The whole counsel of God concerning Salvation, teaches us that we must turn to God, and believe.

Just as faith without the work of obedience is dead, so also believing without obedience is dead.

Unbelief is disobedience.

... to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.' Acts 26:18


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If you want to call obeying the Gospel "legalistic", that's between you and the Holy Spirit.

Cornelius' household did not first follow 'confess with your mouth' as a legalistic rule that must be obeyed first to get saved (Acts 10:43-46 NASB). They did not even follow the legalistic rule some have made baptism out to be that must first be obeyed to get saved. This shows us God did not intend either command to be a legalistic requirement for works that must be done first before you can be born again. They are simply not legalistic requirements (laws to be followed) that have to be literally completed before you can be born again.

 

[JLB]

Cornelius' household did not first follow 'confess with your mouth' as a legalistic rule that must be obeyed first to get saved (Acts 10:43-46 NASB). They did not even follow the legalistic rule some have made baptism out to be that must first be obeyed to get saved. This shows us God did not intend either command to be a legalistic requirement for works that must be done first before you can be born again. They are simply not legalistic requirements (laws to be followed) that have to be literally completed before you can be born again.

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10


Does the scripture say confession is made unto salvation?

Yes or No.

I guess you just simply don't understand that a person is renouncing one kingdom and pledging their allegiance and loyalty to another King and His Kingdom.

He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love,
Colossians 1:13

Also you keep trying to disconnect the word believe from obedience.

The Gospel is God calling Mankind to turn from Satan and his kingdom to the Kingdom of God, by coming under the authority of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Believing in the Lord is to commit to the Lord through faithful obedience.

The idea behind this concept of turning away from one king and his kingdom, and coming under the dominion and authority of another King is found in these words of Paul.


10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Phillipians 2:10-11

Does the scripture say confession is made unto salvation?

By your words you are justified...

JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Does the scripture say confession is made unto salvation?

Yes or No.

Does the scripture say be baptized for the forgiveness of sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit?

"38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. " (Acts 2:38 NASB)

Yes, or no?

If you say, 'yes', which you surely must, then why did Cornelius' household not follow this 'rule'? Perhaps because God did not intend it as a legalistic law that you must first obey before you can be born again. That doesn't mean it won't be part of a genuinely saved person's life. It means it's not a legal requirement that one has to fulfill first in order to then be born again. Likewise with 'confess with your mouth'. Cornelius' household didn't do that first as a precondition for being born again either.

 

[JLB]

Does the scripture say be baptized for the forgiveness of sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit?

"38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. " (Acts 2:38 NASB)


Yes, or no?

If you say, 'yes', which you surely must, then why did Cornelius' household not follow this 'rule'? Perhaps because God did not intend it as a legalistic law that you must first obey before you can be born again. That doesn't mean it won't be part of a genuinely saved person's life. It means it's not a legal requirement that one has to fulfill first in order to then be born again. Likewise with 'confess with your mouth'. Cornelius' household didn't do that first as a precondition for being born again either.

Baptism is a command that should be obeyed.


that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10

But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we preach): Romans 10:8

13 For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."
14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things!"
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" Romans 10:13-16


Does the scripture say confession is made unto salvation?

Yes or No.

Your argument about whether a person should obey the Gospel comes from the idea that "we don't really need to do what the scriptures teach"..., while out of the other side of your mouth you compel people to keep the law of Moses, then have the audacity to claim that obeying the Gospel is legalism! That really makes sense.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Your argument about whether a person should obey the Gospel comes from the idea that "we don't really need to do what the scriptures teach"...

No. The argument is God may well save you before you do anything--even getting water baptized. God did not set laws up that have to be kept, no matter what, before he will cause you to be born again. We know this from the scriptures themselves (Acts 10:43-46 NASB).

...while out of the other side of your mouth you compel people to keep the law of Moses

...no, not keep the law of Moses IN ORDER TO BE BORN AGAIN as you are saying confession with the mouth has to be done for.

, then have the audacity to claim that obeying the Gospel is legalism! That really makes sense.

If I was saying people had to keep the law of Moses IN ORDER TO GET BORN AGAIN, then, yes, I would be teaching the same kind of legalism you are teaching, that one has to satisfy certain lawful requirements first in order to be born again. But as it is, I'm not teaching that kind of legalism at all. You are.

The law of Moses gets fulfilled and upheld AFTER a person is born again (Romans 13:8-10 NASB), not as a legalistic condition to get saved as you are saying confession with the mouth is.

 

[JLB]

No. The argument is God may well save you before you do anything--even getting water baptized. God did not set laws up that have to be kept, no matter what, before he will cause you to be born again. We know this from the scriptures themselves (Acts 10:43-46 NASB).

What we know from the scriptures is: that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9

That is what the scriptures say.

Faith all by itself, if it does not have the action of obedience is dead. James 2:17

What you have done is declared those who believe and obey the scripture that Paul wrote by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, to be legalistic.

You are labeling the Holy Spirit, Paul and those who teach what the bible says, as being legalistic, while citing as your reason for this;
God doesn't set up laws to be kept...

Do you think that confessing with your mouth, Jesus as Lord, is an act of obedience or disobedience?

JLB

 

[JLB]

The law of Moses gets fulfilled and upheld AFTER a person is born again (Romans 13:8-10 NASB), not as a legalistic condition to get saved as you are saying confession with the mouth is.

The law of Moses was declared obsolete, and nailed to the cross, and abolished by the Lord.

It has no place in the New Covenant.


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

I don't see your necessity for one to 'confess with their mouth to be saved'

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Jews listen to what Moses said.....
Deu 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, .......
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Say what? Adonai Yesha? There is only one Adonai, Yahweh.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Isa 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
You need not be ashamed, as though you are turning away from the God of your fathers.
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

As usual Paul builds his case, like any worthwhile attorney would. When he begins by quoting Moses we can know he is building his case towards the Jewish beliefs and thoughts in Judaism. For the Gentile to be able to accept Father and Son was not that contrary to what they were accustom to. But for a Jew it was heretical. So the idea of confessing Yesha as Lord was more important than I think we can understand as people not raised in the Jewish faith system.

Just what I see....
God Bless you both.

 

[JLB]

Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Jews listen to what Moses said.....
Deu 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, .......
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Say what? Adonai Yesha? There is only one Adonai, Yahweh.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Isa 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
You need not be ashamed, as though you are turning away from the God of your fathers.
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

As usual Paul builds his case, like any worthwhile attorney would. When he begins by quoting Moses we can know he is building his case towards the Jewish beliefs and thoughts in Judaism. For the Gentile to be able to accept Father and Son was not that contrary to what they were accustom to. But for a Jew it was heretical. So the idea of confessing Yesha as Lord was more important than I think we can understand as people not raised in the Jewish faith system.

Just what I see....
God Bless you both.

Yes Deb. It's far more important than people living in 21st Century America understand.

The idea of a Gospel, [Evangelion] came even before the days of John the Baptist and Christ.

When a kingdom would go out and conquer other kingdoms, the massive army would travel to the country and the city where the opposing king had his palace, and they would surround that city and besiege it.

Then the Commander of the conquering army, or sometimes the king himself, would ride out and announce the "gospel".

The terms by which the opposing kingdom would surrender.

"The kingdom of Babylon is at hand; turn from your king who you serve now, and come and bow before the king of Babylon, and serve him, or you will perish this very day".


Repent means to turn away from the king or lord [master or ruler], and serve the King of the kingdom of God.

The Lord's commission to Paul -

14 And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking to me and saying in the Hebrew language, 'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.'
15 So I said, 'Who are You, Lord?' And He said, 'I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.
16 But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you.
17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you,
18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.' Acts 26:14-18


...from the power of Satan to God, [so] that they may receive forgiveness of sins.

When we understand the importance of repenting, it is so that we may receive the forgiveness of sins.

We are not "repenting of our sins", as some teach, but we are repenting, turning away from Satan and his kingdom, to the Lord Jesus Christ and the Kingdom of God.

Baptism in water is the public demonstration of this turning away, by being united together with Him in the likeness of His death, as well as identifying ourselves with the likeness of His Resurrection.

For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, Romans 6:5

We are showing we have died to this world, which lies under the dominion of the god of this world, Satan.

• However, like Jethro pointed out, we are born again before we are Baptized, not because we are Baptized.

The idea of having "repented", turned to God, continues for the rest of our life, as we find that the consequences for "turning back" which is called turning away from God, or falling away, is to be sentence to join Satan, the one whom they have turned back to, has been sentenced.

Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; Hebrews 3:12

This is the same Greek word Jesus used in the parable of the Sower, that is rendered "fall away".

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13


This was particularly clear to those who dwelled in Rome and were compelled to bow to the image of Caesar, of which Domitian referred to himself as son of god.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Jews listen to what Moses said.....
Deu 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, .......
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Say what? Adonai Yesha? There is only one Adonai, Yahweh.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Isa 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
You need not be ashamed, as though you are turning away from the God of your fathers.
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

As usual Paul builds his case, like any worthwhile attorney would. When he begins by quoting Moses we can know he is building his case towards the Jewish beliefs and thoughts in Judaism.

Yes, deborah, but is it a legalistic 'rule' that one absolutely has to do before God will save you? Obviously, no. Cornelius' household neither confessed Jesus as Lord with their mouth, nor got water baptized as preconditions for being born again. They got born again (as evidenced by the Holy Spirit) and THEN did those things. And why not? Paul explains clearly that salvation is not wrought by ANY righteous work.

"5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5 NASB emphasis mine)

That doesn't mean hearers of the gospel don't confess with their mouth Jesus as Lord, or don't get baptized (I love baptisms and think you should do it as soon as possible). It means they are not hard and fast legal preconditions that have to be satisfied before God will save you. Paul said it is NOT on that basis that he saves us.

For the Gentile to be able to accept Father and Son was not that contrary to what they were accustom to. But for a Jew it was heretical. So the idea of confessing Yesha as Lord was more important than I think we can understand as people not raised in the Jewish faith system.

Given how critical confessing with their mouth that Jesus is Lord would be to Peter and the Jews with him God sure didn't use that to impress his acceptance of the gentiles on them. Perhaps it was just another way God was blasting the legalism that Jews, both believing and unbelieving, are so saddled with. Salvation not being on the basis of what we do is what I see being so offensive and alien to the Jew. We gentiles are the 'in your face' to everything wrong the Jews did with their relationship with God.

 

[Deborah13]

Yes, deborah, but is it a legalistic 'rule' that one absolutely has to do before God will save you?

No, absolutely not. That was the point of my post. Paul was stressing to Jews that their view of one God being only Yahweh needed to encompass Yeshua as their Lord and therefore His divinity. He quotes Moses so they will understand and accept. When Moses said, in your mouth and in your heart, what did he mean by that. They knew that meant that their speech, their prayers, their worship, would be always to Adonai. Then he quotes Isaiah's prophecy about the one the body will be built on a foundation relating it to Yeshua and to not be ashamed for calling Him Adonai and worshiping Him as Adonai. They would not be turning away from the God of their fathers.
So those verses are directed toward Jews, not Gentiles. The reason I can believe this is because he quotes the scriptures that he does, from the OT. He makes his case for Jesus as their Lord with the very scriptures their belief system is built on.

 

[JLB]

Yes, deborah, but is it a legalistic 'rule' that one absolutely has to do before God will save you?

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10

....with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Why would you want to call Paul legalistic for writing this in scripture?

You have put yourself in direct opposition to the scriptures, and insulted the Spirit by which Paul writes these words.

• My only point was to show the action of obedience involved in salvation by faith, as faith all by itself, without the act of obedience is dead.

It is repent and believe...

When we see "believe", in the scriptures, we must not divorce the concept of obey with this word, as you have been clearly shown that "unbelief" is "disobedience".

Repent, so that you may receive the forgiveness of sins.

Why do you want to reject the action of repent, in the salvation process as being "legalistic"?


JLB

 

[JLB]

No, absolutely not. That was the point of my post. Paul was stressing to Jews that their view of one God being only Yahweh needed to encompass Yeshua as their Lord and therefore His divinity. He quotes Moses so they will understand and accept. When Moses said, in your mouth and in your heart, what did he mean by that. They knew that meant that their speech, their prayers, their worship, would be always to Adonai. Then he quotes Isaiah's prophecy about the one the body will be built on a foundation relating it to Yeshua and to not be ashamed for calling Him Adonai and worshiping Him as Adonai. They would not be turning away from the God of their fathers.
So those verses are directed toward Jews, not Gentiles. The reason I can believe this is because he quotes the scriptures that he does, from the OT. He makes his case for Jesus as their Lord with the very scriptures their belief system is built on.

Extremely insightful Deb.




JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Why do you want to reject the action of repent, in the salvation process as being "legalistic"?

You still don't know what my argument is?
You're kidding, right?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No, absolutely not.

For sure.
Paul makes it pretty clear that salvation is not on the basis of our deeds:

"5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness..." (Titus 3:5 NASB)


.

 

[JLB]

For sure.
Paul makes it pretty clear that salvation is not on the basis of our deeds:

"5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness..." (Titus 3:5 NASB)


.

Once again, no one is saying that "good deeds" are what earn salvation.

Confessing with your mouth is not a deed, but words.

Words are not deeds.

For the 10,000th time.


JLB

 

[JLB]

You still don't know what my argument is?
You're kidding, right?

You are claiming that the Holy Spirit and Paul are legalistic for writing these words in the bible.


9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10


Your argument simply states: "you don't have to do what this scripture tell us to do to be saved".

That's your argument. Plain and simple.

The Gospel according to Jethro: ..."You don't have to obey the Gospel to be saved."


JLB