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What gave Satan the thought to rebel against God?

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You are right. I do prefer to engage with specifics from the texts rather than the MANY imaginations that are available that are simply NOT TRUE.

I am not led to believe things that are contrary to the texts if I can avoid it.

Word has FINAL SAY.

I did not insult you. Please refrain from insulting me. Practice what you preach! There are many believers who agree with my Biblical POV on this issue and fewer who agree with you on your Biblical POV on this issue.

I do not use vain imaginations to come to my beliefs in God. I stand alone on the Word of God. The B-I-B-L-E. I cry out to the Holy Spirit making myself a fool to receive His wisdom. You can read the Bible all you want but without humbly seeking the Lord for His answer you're going to stand on your own personal interpretation.

Didn't Timothy McVeigh use the Bible to murder?
 
I did not insult you. Please refrain from insulting me. Practice what you preach! There are many believers who agree with my Biblical POV on this issue and fewer who agree with you on your Biblical POV on this issue.

Sorry, I can't get past the facts on the page regardless of the readers spins.
I do not use vain imaginations to come to my beliefs in God. I stand alone on the Word of God. The B-I-B-L-E. I cry out to the Holy Spirit making myself a fool to receive His wisdom. You can read the Bible all you want but without humbly seeking the Lord for His answer you're going to stand on your own personal interpretation.

I never said you did. Some scriptures seem very forthright about facts. Isaiah 45:7 is one of them. It does take re-writing to eliminate that fact.
Didn't Timothy McVeigh use the Bible to murder?

I can't discount the activity and operations of Satan within any person who picks up the text.

Jesus did promise all of us some 'interactions' on that front.

s
 
No. They are much to long and hard to read because of the formating. They are articles based on others opinions who are twisting the scriptures (this I read from another poster). How can I trust the source? Do you go into a mosque and ask them to teach you the Scriptures or do you go to a church with a Holy Spirit filled pastor?

There is only one article, which is on Isaiah 14 (2 parts), the person who said he (article) twisted Scripture probably did not read it either. Unless you take the time to study, keep the good throw out the bad, how would you know if a concept is correct, such as using a personal name like "Lucifer" and say it is the Devil instead of a Babylonin king? Mind you, many who are orthodox do not read into Isaiah 14 what the majority of Christendom has from a bad translation.
Bubba
 
There is only one article, which is on Isaiah 14 (2 parts), the person who said he (article) twisted Scripture probably did not read it either. Unless you take the time to study, keep the good throw out the bad, how would you know if a concept is correct, such as using a personal name like "Lucifer" and say it is the Devil instead of a Babylonin king? Mind you, many who are orthodox do not read into Isaiah 14 what the majority of Christendom has from a bad translation.
Bubba


I have heard of, read of, seen and personally witnessed many exorcisms. In many cases, the demons identify themselves as "Lucifer" .... Figure that !

Would the Babylonian king possess anyone ? You guys only know how to pick specific verses out of context, bend them to suit your own knowledge and understanding, and use it to lash out unreasonable arguements ....


:screwloose
 
I have heard of, read of, seen and personally witnessed many exorcisms. In many cases, the demons identify themselves as "Lucifer" .... Figure that !

Would the Babylonian king possess anyone ? You guys only know how to pick specific verses out of context, bend them to suit your own knowledge and understanding, and use it to lash out unreasonable arguements ....


:screwloose

First off, did you read the article on Isaiah 14 and how the word “Lucifer†got its beginning? Second, just because a demon uses the name Lucifer, does not mean it is correct, only that the evil spirit world likes to play into our false perceptions. Remember Satan is the father of all liars.
Bubba
 
There is only one article, which is on Isaiah 14 (2 parts), the person who said he (article) twisted Scripture probably did not read it either. Unless you take the time to study, keep the good throw out the bad, how would you know if a concept is correct, such as using a personal name like "Lucifer" and say it is the Devil instead of a Babylonin king? Mind you, many who are orthodox do not read into Isaiah 14 what the majority of Christendom has from a bad translation.
Bubba

IF one applied the methodologies of the article writer, or what you speak of above, all such, in essence, write their own Bible. It would help to see what the writer concluded from all that exercise on a single word in any case.

There is a very large degree of sanctity in the jots and tittles of the O.T. and many matters are hidden therein from open viewing or reading.

The Word is spiritual. When man single or multiple attempts to redefine the matters error is compounded and exponential as many re-writes show.

It also impossible to do a literal translation. That is how 'good' a job God did in the confusions of languages.

s
 
.

First off, did you read the article on Isaiah 14 and how the word “Lucifer” got its beginning? Second, just because a demon uses the name Lucifer, does not mean it is correct, only that the evil spirit world likes to play into our false perceptions. Remember Satan is the father of all liars.
Bubba


Typical ignorant response from one who knows nothing about demons and exorcisms -- how demons are discerned and communicated with through the leading and power of the Holy Spirit, and brought under full subjection to the name and authority of Jesus Christ to expose their specific true identities before being expelled.

It's pretty interesting and thought-provoking that the devil often prides in calling himself "Lucifer", don't you think ?

Yes, I have thoroughly read your article, the one which you failed to provide source and author.


I also have an article for you to read .... Enjoy !



Source :- Is Lucifer Satan? Does the fall of Lucifer describe Satan?



There is no verse or passage in the Bible that says, “Lucifer is Satan,” but an examination of several passages reveals that Lucifer can be none other than Satan. The fall of Lucifer described in Isaiah 14:12 is likely the same that Jesus referred to in Luke 10:18: "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.” A similar fall is depicted in Ezekiel 28.

Isaiah 14:12-18 describes the fall from heaven of one called “Lucifer” in the King James Version and the “morning star, son of the dawn” in the NIV. Other Bible versions call him “Day Star,” “shining star,” and “the bright morning star.” These variations are due to differences of opinion about how to translate the Hebrew word helel. Regardless, the description of the one referred to shows us it can be none other than Satan. We know from Jesus’ own words in Luke 10 that Satan fell from heaven. So, when Isaiah refers to Lucifer or helel being cast down to earth (Isaiah 14:12), it can be none other than Satan. The reason for his fall is found in verses 13 and 14: “You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.’” This has always been Satan’s desire – to be God, and it is the very temptation he used in the Garden of Eden to get Eve to disobey God: “You shall be as God” (Genesis 3:5).

Ezekiel 28 is another passage thought to refer to Lucifer/Satan. Although it begins with Ezekiel being commanded by God to “take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre” (v. 12), an evil idolatrous king, it soon becomes clear that the passage is referring as well to the power behind that king—Satan. Verse 13 says he was “in Eden, the garden of God.” Clearly, the king of Tyre was never in Eden. Verse 14 says, “You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you.” Apparently, Lucifer/Satan had a position of guardian angel in heaven “among the fiery stones,” thought to be the shining precious jewels that are seen in other descriptions of heaven (Exodus 24:10; Revelation 21:18-21). Since the king of Tyre was never in heaven, either, this can only be describing Lucifer. The rest of the passage describes the reason he was cast out of heaven. Because of his beauty, his heart became proud and his wisdom was corrupted (v. 17). Pride in his perfection, wisdom and beauty (v. 12) became the source of his downfall, and God threw him to the earth (v. 17). This was witnessed by the Lord Jesus in heaven before His incarnation (Luke 10:18).

To summarize, the Hebrew word helel is translated "Lucifer." He was cast out of heaven for his sin of pride and his desire to be God. Jesus referred to seeing Satan being cast out of heaven. Therefore, we can conclude that Lucifer and Satan are one and the same.
 
Are you implying that God's word is not at all accurate or believable?

It is IMPossible for a literal word for word translation to be available outside of the original Hebrew for the O.T. or Aramaic Greek for the N.T. God Himself made this IMPOSSIBLE when He confused the languages of the people at the Tower of Babel.

This is just a simple fact and has exactly ZERO to do with 'belief.'
 
It is IMPossible for a literal word for word translation to be available outside of the original Hebrew for the O.T. or Aramaic Greek for the N.T. God Himself made this IMPOSSIBLE when He confused the languages of the people at the Tower of Babel.

This is just a simple fact and has exactly ZERO to do with 'belief.'

Then God's will is not perfect? Why would so many translations be out there of God's word if that were not His will? As believers are we not encouraged to trust in the makings of His will and living in accordance to it? Why then would any one want to do that to a misleading God as you seem to implicate Him to be here?

The tower of Babylon was done so that man would not seek to set their heights higher than God. That is a whole different matter.

In any case...this topic is far enough off topic. It should go back on track. The discussion after all is more or less why Satan thought to rebel against God.
 
.




Typical ignorant response from one who knows nothing about demons and exorcisms -- how demons are discerned and communicated with through the leading and power of the Holy Spirit, and brought under full subjection to the name and authority of Jesus Christ to expose their specific true identities before being expelled.

It's pretty interesting and thought-provoking that the devil often prides in calling himself "Lucifer", don't you think ?

Yes, I have thoroughly read your article, the one which you failed to provide source and author.


I also have an article for you to read .... Enjoy !



Source :- Is Lucifer Satan? Does the fall of Lucifer describe Satan?



There is no verse or passage in the Bible that says, “Lucifer is Satan,†but an examination of several passages reveals that Lucifer can be none other than Satan. The fall of Lucifer described in Isaiah 14:12 is likely the same that Jesus referred to in Luke 10:18: "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.†A similar fall is depicted in Ezekiel 28.

Isaiah 14:12-18 describes the fall from heaven of one called “Lucifer†in the King James Version and the “morning star, son of the dawn†in the NIV. Other Bible versions call him “Day Star,†“shining star,†and “the bright morning star.†These variations are due to differences of opinion about how to translate the Hebrew word helel. Regardless, the description of the one referred to shows us it can be none other than Satan. We know from Jesus’ own words in Luke 10 that Satan fell from heaven. So, when Isaiah refers to Lucifer or helel being cast down to earth (Isaiah 14:12), it can be none other than Satan. The reason for his fall is found in verses 13 and 14: “You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.’†This has always been Satan’s desire – to be God, and it is the very temptation he used in the Garden of Eden to get Eve to disobey God: “You shall be as God†(Genesis 3:5).

Ezekiel 28 is another passage thought to refer to Lucifer/Satan. Although it begins with Ezekiel being commanded by God to “take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre†(v. 12), an evil idolatrous king, it soon becomes clear that the passage is referring as well to the power behind that king—Satan. Verse 13 says he was “in Eden, the garden of God.†Clearly, the king of Tyre was never in Eden. Verse 14 says, “You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you.†Apparently, Lucifer/Satan had a position of guardian angel in heaven “among the fiery stones,†thought to be the shining precious jewels that are seen in other descriptions of heaven (Exodus 24:10; Revelation 21:18-21). Since the king of Tyre was never in heaven, either, this can only be describing Lucifer. The rest of the passage describes the reason he was cast out of heaven. Because of his beauty, his heart became proud and his wisdom was corrupted (v. 17). Pride in his perfection, wisdom and beauty (v. 12) became the source of his downfall, and God threw him to the earth (v. 17). This was witnessed by the Lord Jesus in heaven before His incarnation (Luke 10:18).

To summarize, the Hebrew word helel is translated "Lucifer." He was cast out of heaven for his sin of pride and his desire to be God. Jesus referred to seeing Satan being cast out of heaven. Therefore, we can conclude that Lucifer and Satan are one and the same.

Tina,
How do you come to say, “Typical ignorant response from one who knows nothing about demons and exorcisms -- how demons are discerned and communicated with through the leading and power of the Holy Spirit, and brought under full subjection to the name and authority of Jesus Christ to expose their specific true identities before being expelled.â€, when you really do not know me, or what I have experience in respect to demons?
If you read my article you would know that I did give a source;
From thread #14

"Lucifer" in Isaiah 14:12-17
Translation and Ideology
By Dennis Bratcher:
Bubba
 
Then God's will is not perfect?

Uh, what does that comment have to do with anything again?

It is not 'my fact' that literal word for word translations are IMPossible. It is a simple openly known fact.
Why would so many translations be out there of God's word if that were not His will? As believers are we not encouraged to trust in the makings of His will and living in accordance to it? Why then would any one want to do that to a misleading God as you seem to implicate Him to be here?

Would you like to say that it is Gods Will for the JW's to write their own bible to suit their own positional needs?

My point in 're-writes' is that anyone can rewrite, particularly in 'paraphrased' manners and the Bible could in theory not even RESEMBLE the original.
The tower of Babylon was done so that man would not seek to set their heights higher than God. That is a whole different matter.

Again, my observation was the the confusions of languages of mankind was done by God, and this fact PREVENTS a literal word for word translation. The fact that word for word does not exist as a possibility remains a fact. I only applied that 'other fact' from the O.T. to show scripturally WHY this is a fact. An unbelieving linguist would not accept the latter fact.
In any case...this topic is far enough off topic. It should go back on track. The discussion after all is more or less why Satan thought to rebel against God.

I think what Bubba is getting at, and he can correct me if wrong, is that IF freewill is TRUE and such caused REBELLION by Satan, or even MAN, then what is to STOP that freewill abberation unto SIN and REBELLION from transpiring ANYTIME in HEAVEN after we receive our new bodies?

I don't adhere to the 'freewill' satan position so this has been settled for me. Satan was made as an evil entity by God from the beginning and God will put him away in the LOF when his uses are fulfilled.

s
 
Uh, what does that comment have to do with anything again?

It is not 'my fact' that literal word for word translations are IMPossible. It is a simple openly known fact.


Would you like to say that it is Gods Will for the JW's to write their own bible to suit their own positional needs?

It is also written in scripture that one shall NOT add or take away from God's word. If everyone is to believe that there is no real way of believing God's word because of translation errors, then does that not take away from the scripture in which we are encouraged to believe and of which tells us of the faith so many of us have? After all without that very word in which you now condemn too many of us would know NOTHING of God and His love.

My point in 're-writes' is that anyone can rewrite, particularly in 'paraphrased' manners and the Bible could in theory not even RESEMBLE the original.

While this can and very well may be true that is all the more reason why we need FAITH. This too is why we should pray for understanding and that God will lead us in the right direction.






I think what Bubba is getting at, and he can correct me if wrong, is that IF freewill is TRUE and such caused REBELLION by Satan, or even MAN, then what is to STOP that freewill abberation unto SIN and REBELLION from transpiring ANYTIME in HEAVEN after we receive our new bodies?

I don't adhere to the 'freewill' satan position so this has been settled for me. Satan was made as an evil entity by God from the beginning and God will put him away in the LOF when his uses are fulfilled

Then what was the purpose of Jesus dying if none of us have the free will to CHOOSE to love and serve God?
 
Just show one scripture where Satan was HOLY or was once IN TRUTH and yer IN.

Ezekiel 28

12 " 'You (Lucifer) were the model of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty
.

13 You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
ruby, topaz and emerald,
chrysolite, onyx and jasper,
sapphire, turquoise and beryl. [c]
Your settings and mountings [d] were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.

14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.

15 You (Lucifer) were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created

till wickedness was found in you.

16 Through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence,
and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
and I expelled you, O guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones.

17 Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth;
I made a spectacle of you before kings.

You can say this was addressed to King Tyre and therefore to a man all you want. But we both know God is not shallow or one dimensional in any way. You can twist the scripture to fit your need all you want. But here it is laid out for you. You wanted Scripture and here you go.

Thanks Tina :thumbsup
 
Ezekiel 28

12 " 'You (Lucifer) were the model of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty
.

13 You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
ruby, topaz and emerald,
chrysolite, onyx and jasper,
sapphire, turquoise and beryl. [c]
Your settings and mountings [d] were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.

14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.

15 You (Lucifer) were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created

till wickedness was found in you.

16 Through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence,
and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
and I expelled you, O guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones.

17 Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth;
I made a spectacle of you before kings.

You can say this was addressed to King Tyre and therefore to a man all you want. But we both know God is not shallow or one dimensional in any way. You can twist the scripture to fit your need all you want. But here it is laid out for you. You wanted Scripture and here you go.

Thanks Tina :thumbsup


Amen, God's word speaks for itself.
 
Amen, God's word speaks for itself.

You see a similar prophetic pronouncement upon pharaoh of Egypt in Ezekiel 31:8-9 using also the Biblical themes of Eden, is he also Satan? These Kings elevated themselves to the point where they thought they were God and without sin, and in the genre of literature used by Isaiah and Ezekiel they used hyperbolic language to address these kings and what would soon happen to them.
Bubba
 
You see a similar prophetic pronouncement upon pharaoh of Egypt in Ezekiel 31:8-9 using also the Biblical themes of Eden, is he also Satan? These Kings elevated themselves to the point where they thought they were God and without sin, and in the genre of literature used by Isaiah and Ezekiel they used hyperbolic language to address these kings and what would soon happen to them.
Bubba

Ezekiel 31

8 The cedars in the garden of God
could not rival it,
nor could the pine trees
equal its boughs,
nor could the plane trees
compare with its branches—
no tree in the garden of God
could match its beauty.

9 I made it beautiful
with abundant branches,
the envy of all the trees of Eden
in the garden of God.

This doesn't compare to Ezekiel 28. You're exactly right when saying that those kings exalted themselves higher than God. Just like the prince of this world. That is the reason God is speaking to those king's king- Satan. You unknowingly simply prove the truth of the Bible with your statement. Did you read the article Tina posted on here? Tina, a poster who's posts show the manifestation of the Holy Spirit in her life, a reliable and trust worthy poster?
 
"I think what Bubba is getting at, and he can correct me if wrong, is that IF freewill is TRUE and such caused REBELLION by Satan, or even MAN, then what is to STOP that freewill abberation unto SIN and REBELLION from transpiring ANYTIME in HEAVEN after we receive our new bodies?

I don't adhere to the 'freewill' satan position so this has been settled for me. Satan was made as an evil entity by God from the beginning and God will put him away in the LOF when his uses are fulfilled."

Smaller,
This is exactly what I was "getting at", which only you have address.

This is what I wrote;
"I would like to go back to the beginning of this thread and what I believe is a problem for the orthodox belief that Satan was at one time without sin. We know that Adam and Eve were tempted by Satan who enters their world of spiritual and physical sinless bliss. Have you ever wondered about the fact that Satan was a mismatch for the two? This leads me to agree at least in part with the Supralapsarian Calvinist crowd, that God planned their fall.

Now, we understand that an outside stimulus (Satan) got the “ball rolling” in regards to sin (evil) entering the world through our first parents, but what stimulus caused Satan to be sinful? As I said in the beginning, if in a perfect environment in the presence of the Triune God, an evil thought entered the mind of Satan (pride), what would keep it from happening again amongst us the redeemed in Glory? I believe this possibility would be very problematic to those who think Satan had been created sinless. Is there someone who maybe can address this conundrum?

I also find it interesting that the same Hebrew word for evil found in Genesis 2:9 for the “tree of the knowledge of good and evil” is also the same word for Isaiah 45:7, “7Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I [am] Jehovah, doing all these things (YLT).” Is it possible that God in fact “prepared evil” in the form of Satan as an instrument to cause a contrast of “good and evil” for our benefit, yet He Himself is not evil?"

Bubba
 
Ezekiel 28

12 " 'You (Lucifer) were the model of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
You can say this was addressed to King Tyre and therefore to a man all you want. But we both know God is not shallow or one dimensional in any way. You can twist the scripture to fit your need all you want. But here it is laid out for you. You wanted Scripture and here you go.

Thanks Tina :thumbsup

I believe the Lucifer quote is about Satan. I also do NOT see a presentation of a HOLY ANGEL therein. LUCIFER in the Ezekiel quote IS NOT THERE.

Lucifer as a name is found only ONCE in the text, making it IMPOSSIBLE to confirm as a position in any case. Most 'orthodox' findings require 2 statements to make determinations.

A perfect DEVIL is a DEVIL in any case of terms or names. That does not make 'holy' or 'freewill' determinations for same.

The 'DEVIL' being 'perfect in his ways' means what? Simple logic would indicate perfect RESISTANCE at the minimum, and certainly not HOLY.

s
 
Ezekiel 31

8 The cedars in the garden of God
could not rival it,
nor could the pine trees
equal its boughs,
nor could the plane trees
compare with its branches—
no tree in the garden of God
could match its beauty.

9 I made it beautiful
with abundant branches,
the envy of all the trees of Eden
in the garden of God.

This doesn't compare to Ezekiel 28. You're exactly right when saying that those kings exalted themselves higher than God. Just like the prince of this world. That is the reason God is speaking to those king's king- Satan. You unknowingly simply prove the truth of the Bible with your statement. Did you read the article Tina posted on here? Tina, a poster who's posts show the manifestation of the Holy Spirit in her life, a reliable and trust worthy poster?

Yes, I did. Did you read the one and only article on Isaiah 14 that I presented that was written by Bratcher?
Bubba
 

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