What is the 'work' that may or may not get burned up in 1 Corinthians 3:8-16?

[FreeGrace]

This is all baseless assumption, on your part.

That's funny. Really. Since your contention that one who ceases to believe ceases to be saved cannot be shown from any Scripture without a whole lot of assuming.

Unless you can show from the scriptures, that an unbelieving person is saved, then you have based your theology on the teaching of man.

Again, no one from your side has ever shown from Scripture that ceasing to believe results in ceasing to be saved. And all the verses on eternal security prove that your theory is unbiblical.

8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8
JLB

Sure. I've always believed that.

 

[FreeGrace]

Those who no longer believe in Him... do they still have Christ?

I know only what Scripture teaches. The one who has believed in Christ IS sealed for the day of redemption with the Holy Spirit, and that Jesus Christ holds them in His hand.

Eph 1:13,14 - 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

John 10:28 - and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

Clear as crystal.

Though, since there is total disagreement with my views, please explain what Eph 1:13 and 14 and John 10:28 are teaching, if they don't teach eternal security. I'm still waiting for someone to enlighten me as to what they actually teach, if my understanding is wrong.

Those who no longer believe in Him, no longer have eternal life.

So, prove it with Scripture that actually SAYS that.

The unbelieving are promise the lake of fire.

Clearly from Rev 20:15 because they don't have eternal life. And we know that God's gifts are irrevocable, and Paul described eternal life as a gift of God.

Again, clear as crystal.

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8

42 And the Lord said, “Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his master will make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of food in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. 44 Truly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all that he has. 45 But if that servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, 46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
Luke 12:42-46

Here we have those who were believers and promoted to being a ruler over His house, then later they begin their unfaithful lifestyle and upon the Lord's return, were assigned with the unbelievers.

unbelieving...and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
JLB

I will wait for ANY Scripture that clearly, openly and plainly teaches that when one ceases to believe, they cease to be saved.

I will never accept mere assumption regarding such an important issue.

 

[JLB]

I know only what Scripture teaches. The one who has believed in Christ IS sealed for the day of redemption with the Holy Spirit,

11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Ephesians 1:13-14

Those who believe in Christ and trust in Him for salvation, have God's seal of approval.

Those who no longer believe, whereby the no longer trust in Him for salvation, no longer meet the condition for salvation.

As long as you believe, and are "in Him", you have the guarantee of the inheritance.

Those who are in Him, but later are removed from Him, are guaranteed to be cast into the fire and burned.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:1-2,6

If anyone does not abide in Me... thrown into the fire, and they are burned.


You can't get away from the simple truth of believing.

Believe = Saved
Believe for a while = Saved for a while.

In Him = Saved
In Him for a while = Saved for a while.

Those who endure to the end will be saved. Matthew 24:13


JLB

 

[JLB]

I will wait for ANY Scripture that clearly, openly and plainly teaches that when one ceases to believe, they cease to be saved.

12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. Matthew 24:12-14

Those who depart from Him, under persecution, and abandon their hope of salvation, are no longer partakers of Christ.

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 1:9

Abide = continue; remain


Case Closed.



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Ephesians 1:13-14

Those who believe in Christ and trust in Him for salvation, have God's seal of approval.

There is nothing about approval in these verses. Let's not add to Scripture. Let's just stay WITH Scripture.

Those who no longer believe, whereby the no longer trust in Him for salvation, no longer meet the condition for salvation.

Actually, no human being will EVER meet the condition for salvation. The ONLY reason anyone is saved is because of God's grace and Jesus Christ dying in our place, paying the price for our sins.

So, whether one lives according to your standards, or less than your standards, doesn't matter. Neither meets the condition for salvation.

As long as you believe, and are "in Him", you have the guarantee of the inheritance.

But v.14 goes farther than you're willing to go. They are guaranteed for the day of redemption, which you've not addressed or explained how that doesn't teach eternal security.

Those who are in Him, but later are removed from Him, are guaranteed to be cast into the fire and burned.

And where does the Bible teach that anyone can be "removed from Him", since Eph 1;13 and 14 are quite clear that all who believe have been sealed with the Holy Spirit, a promise for the day of redemption.

Does the word "redemption" mean anything to you?

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:1-2,6

If anyone does not abide in Me... thrown into the fire, and they are burned.

Why should anyone assume to "not abide" means to be removed from Him? The verses sure DON'T say anything about being removed from being in Him. And Eph 1:13 and 14 are a GUARANTEE that those sealed are sealed FOR THE DAY OF REDEMPTION. It seems that's not very clear to you, but it's quite clear to many. It means that each believer, WHEN they believe, are sealed for the day of redemption.

Meaning they are guaranteed of redemption.

You can't get away from the simple truth of believing.

Nor have I. The same cannot be said for your views.

Believe = Saved
Believe for a while = Saved for a while.

This is just a baseless assumption, without any Scriptural evidence.

In Him = Saved
In Him for a while = Saved for a while.

Man made assumptions to not pass for biblical doctrines.

Those who endure to the end will be saved. Matthew 24:13
JLB

Context clarifies what this verse means. It will apply only during the Tribulation. No other time.

 

[FreeGrace]

12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. Matthew 24:12-14

Context refutes your notions of ceasing to believe results in ceasing to be saved.

Those who depart from Him, under persecution, and abandon their hope of salvation, are no longer partakers of Christ.

And the word for "partakers" has been explained. When a believer is not a partaker with Christ, it has nothing to do with loss of salvation. You've not proven otherwise.

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 1:9

Abide = continue; remain
Case Closed.JLB

The case sure is closed.

God's gifts are irrevocable. Eternal life is a gift of God. Eternal life is irrevocable.

Your side has not proven otherwise.

 

[JLB]

And the word for "partakers" has been explained. When a believer is not a partaker with Christ, it has nothing to do with loss of salvation. You've not proven otherwise.

To partake of something is to have that something.

Those who are partakers of Christ, have Christ.

Those who are not partakers of Him, do not have Him.

He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 1 John 5:12

Does this life refer to natural life, or eternal life?

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:14


Those who endure to the end, will be saved. Matthew 24:13



JLB

 

[JLB]

God's gifts are irrevocable. Eternal life is a gift of God. Eternal life is irrevocable.

Please post the scripture for this opinion.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

To partake of something is to have that something.

Those who are partakers of Christ, have Christ.

Those who are not partakers of Him, do not have Him.

He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 1 John 5:12

Does this life refer to natural life, or eternal life?

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:14


Those who endure to the end, will be saved. Matthew 24:13
JLB

I've already answered all this. Many times.

The gifts of God are irrevocable.
Rom 11:29 - for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Eternal life is one of God's gifts.
Rom 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Therefore, eternal life is irrevocable.

The huge glitch in the loss of salvation view is the assumption that one can remove themselves from the hand of God by ceasing to believe.

Yet, where is the Scripture that actually SAYS that? There are none. Simple as that.

 

[chessman]

Romans 11:25 (LEB) For I do not want you to be ignorant, brothers, of this mystery, so that you will not be wise in your own sight, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,

Romans 11:28 (LEB) With respect to the gospel, they [Gospel hardened Israel] are enemies for your [Gentile brothers,v13] sake, but with respect to election, they [hardened Israel] are dearly loved for the sake of the fathers.
​

Such a little word, "For". But oh so important theologically! According to this verse, what are the reasons God partially hardened Israel to the Gospel? 1) For the sake of the gentile brothers and 2) For the sake of the fathers. Pretty clear, right!

Romans 11:29 (LEB) For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
​

So, for what reasons are the gifts and calling of God irrevocable. (Rhetorical question because Paul tells us why they are irrevocable).

God's gifts and calling are irrevocable so that;
1) we will not be wise in our own sight
2) the full number of the Gentiles can come in. Not a fraction of the full number, but the full number.
3) God can fulfill what prophecies were written, v26. Not some of them but all of them.
4) God can take away our sins, v27. Not some of them but all of them.
5) God can show His mercy toward both Israel and Gentile brothers, v 30-31. Not one group or the other but both groups.
6) God can show the depth and riches and wisdom in His knowledge.

Romans 11:33 (LEB) Oh, the depth of the riches and the wisdom and the knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how incomprehensible are his ways! ​

That knowledge of God is some powerful stuff. Powerful enough to bring in "the FULL number of Gentiles".

 

[JLB]

The gifts of God are irrevocable.
Rom 11:29 - for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Eternal life is one of God's gifts.
Rom 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Therefore, eternal life is irrevocable.

By your method of interpretation, which excludes one part of the verse in favor of another, one could just as easily say:

Therefore death is irrevocable.

You splicing together to different scriptures, while removing the part of the scripture you don't want to apply, and completely ignoring the rest of the scriptures, to form a doctrine, is by far the most irresponsible and reckless method of interpretation that I have ever witnessed. IMO

Then you override and disregard the other scriptures because your hybrid-spliced scripture now has taken precedent over the whole counsel of God.

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. for the gifts and the calling of God are [is] irrevocable.

For the wages of sin is [and] death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.for the gifts and the calling of God are [is] irrevocable.


What is to stop someone from "interpreting" these two verse's, with your "method" of interpretation, and coming up with this ? Death is irrevocable.

Then on top of that, you completely disregard the context in both scriptures.


15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:15-23

and again

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. Romans 11:19-23


When a person read's the context, it's plain to see that there is a choice for the Christian.

Believe and continue to believe. [Submit to God, believe, trust and obey Him. Commit]

Become a slave again to sin, by presenting your members as it's slave, and in the end receive the wages for sin, which is death.

or

Become a slave of God and of righteousness, [which is what commitment and obedience to the Lord is all about: Believe = commit, trust] bear fruit unto holiness, and in the end, receive everlasting life.

Expressing and doing what the new born again nature we have been given as a free gift, is not "earning" anything, but rather, it's submitting to and obeying your new King and Lord, Who dwells within your spirit.

This is what you agree to do, when you believe and are baptized: to be crucified to the world and kingdom you have just been delivered from, and obey your new King who saved you from eternal damnation.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Romans 11:25 (LEB) For I do not want you to be ignorant, brothers, of this mystery, so that you will not be wise in your own sight, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,

Romans 11:28 (LEB) With respect to the gospel, they [Gospel hardened Israel] are enemies for your [Gentile brothers,v13] sake, but with respect to election, they [hardened Israel] are dearly loved for the sake of the fathers.
​

Such a little word, "For". But oh so important theologically! According to this verse, what are the reasons God partially hardened Israel to the Gospel? 1) For the sake of the gentile brothers and 2) For the sake of the fathers. Pretty clear, right!

Romans 11:29 (LEB) For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
​

So, for what reasons are the gifts and calling of God irrevocable. (Rhetorical question because Paul tells us why they are irrevocable).

God's gifts and calling are irrevocable so that;
1) we will not be wise in our own sight
2) the full number of the Gentiles can come in. Not a fraction of the full number, but the full number.
3) God can fulfill what prophecies were written, v26. Not some of them but all of them.
4) God can take away our sins, v27. Not some of them but all of them.
5) God can show His mercy toward both Israel and Gentile brothers, v 30-31. Not one group or the other but both groups.
6) God can show the depth and riches and wisdom in His knowledge.

Romans 11:33 (LEB) Oh, the depth of the riches and the wisdom and the knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how incomprehensible are his ways! ​

That knowledge of God is some powerful stuff. Powerful enough to bring in "the FULL number of Gentiles".

God's fore-knowledge of all those who will be saved is powerful.

What is your point is relation to the topic at hand?

Doesn't Romans 11 deal with unbelief and being cut off from the New Covenant in Christ?

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. Romans 11:19-23

This context is to be taken into account when reading Romans 11:29.


Disregarding this context, will lead to a misunderstanding of the New Covenant, and the doctrine of Salvation.



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

By your method of interpretation, which excludes one part of the verse in favor of another, one could just as easily say:

Therefore death is irrevocable.

This is just nonsensical.

Both Rom 6:23 and Rom 11:29 speak about gifts of God. That's what connects them. One verse says that God's gifts are irrevocable. And the other verse says that eternal life is a gift of God.

You splicing together to different scriptures, while removing the part of the scripture you don't want to apply, and completely ignoring the rest of the scriptures, to form a doctrine, is by far the most irresponsible and reckless method of interpretation that I have ever witnessed. IMO

Correct; your opinion ONLY. That's all it is. And none of it makes any sense whatsoever.

Then you override and disregard the other scriptures because your hybrid-spliced scripture now has taken precedent over the whole counsel of God.

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. for the gifts and the calling of God are [is] irrevocable.

For the wages of sin is [and] death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.for the gifts and the calling of God are [is] irrevocable.

Nothing you've crossed out in these 2 verses CHANGES ANYTHING I've posted. The point is still the same, which neither you nor anyone else is able to refute.

What is to stop someone from "interpreting" these two verse's, with your "method" of interpretation, and coming up with this ? Death is irrevocable.

Nothing will stop anyone from using your nonsensical application. What you've described has nothing to do with the actual truth: eternal life is a gift of God, and God's gifts are irrevocable.

But those who don't want to see the truth just won't see it.

Believe and continue to believe. [Submit to God, believe, trust and obey Him. Commit]

Become a slave again to sin, by presenting your members as it's slave, and in the end receive the wages for sin, which is death.

By your unbiblical interpretation, the believer who will sin then just keeps moving from death to life and death and life over and over. That is a yo-yo theology which isn't biblical.

Man is born spiritually dead. When he believes, he receives eternal life. And that life CANNOT die. So there goes your unbiblical interpretation.

There is no going back and forth, as your view demands.

Jesus was clear about WHEN one believes in john 5:24.

1. they HAVE eternal lifes
2. they WILL NOT come into judgment
3. they HAVE PASSED from death to life

Your puzzling view is that if a believer sins, they lose eternal life, will come into judgment, and have passed back from life to death.

All of this is impossible. It contradicts Jesus.

I choose to believe what Jesus said in John 5:24.

 

[JLB]

Nothing you've crossed out in these 2 verses CHANGES ANYTHING I've posted. The point is still the same, which neither you nor anyone else is able to refute.

This is what Romans 6:23 and Romans 11:29 says -

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.for the gifts and the calling of God are [is] irrevocable.

This is just nonsensical.

It's bible scripture, and can not be refuted.

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.for the gifts and the calling of God are [is] irrevocable.

Nothing will stop anyone from using your nonsensical application. What you've described has nothing to do with the actual truth: eternal life is a gift of God, and God's gifts are irrevocable.

But those who don't want to see the truth just won't see it.

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.for the gifts and the calling of God are [is] irrevocable.


This is what Romans 6:23 and Romans 11:29 says.

It's irrefutable.

Man is born spiritually dead.

Yes, and the scriptures Romans 6:23 and Romans 11:29 confirms this and can not be refuted.

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.for the gifts and the calling of God are [is] irrevocable.



Now that you agree, with me and what Romans 6:23 and Romans 11:29 say, you can drop your "interpretation".

Because this is what Romans 6:23 and Romans 11:29 says, and it can not be refuted.

By joining these two scriptures together this way, this teaches the truth by which everything else in the bible must be measured by.



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Again, no one from your side has ever shown from Scripture that ceasing to believe results in ceasing to be saved.

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

In the passage we note these things:

1. He's speaking to saved people, not people who are 'not really' saved.
2. Being presently saved is conditional on 'if' you presently hold fast the word by which you are saved.
3. Believing in vain does not change the fact that salvation is conditional on holding fast the word for those who are saved.

What this means is, when a teacher tells the church they are still saved even when they stop holding fast the gospel word, and a person then stops holding fast the gospel word thinking they are still saved, they destroy that person and Paul says the one who taught them that will themselves be destroyed:

"17If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are." (1 Corinthians 3: 17 NASB)

That's why we have to be careful how we build the temple and building of God (1 Corinthians 3:10 NASB). There is no reward for building the temple of God up into those who can not survive the coming Judgment of fire, and we expose ourselves to being destroyed ourselves.

" 4The wicked are not so,
But they are like chaff which the wind drives away.
5Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment,
Nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.
6For the LORD knows the way of the righteous,
But the way of the wicked will perish."
(Psalm 1:4-6 NASB)

When we raise up wicked people in the church by what we teach, like telling believers they can stop believing and go back to the world and they will still be saved, we build into the present building of God that which is like hay, wood, and stubble and which will be burned up in the coming Fire of Judgment, not pass through like precious gems that can withstand fire, which the true righteous church of God is made up of.

" 20Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil;
Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness;
Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!
21Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes
And clever in their own sight!
24Therefore, as a tongue of fire consumes stubble
And dry grass collapses into the flame,
So their root will become like rot and their blossom blow away as dust;
For they have rejected the law of the LORD of hosts
And despised the word of the Holy One of Israel."
(Isaiah 5:20-21,24 NASB)

12“Keep on, then, with your magic spells
and with your many sorceries,
which you have labored at since childhood.
Perhaps you will succeed,
perhaps you will cause terror.
13All the counsel you have received has only worn you out!
Let your astrologers come forward,
those stargazers who make predictions month by month,
let them save you from what is coming upon you.
14Surely they are like stubble;
the fire will burn them up.
They cannot even save themselves
from the power of the flame.
These are not coals for warmth;
this is not a fire to sit by.
15That is all they are to you—
these you have dealt with
and labored with since childhood.
All of them go on in their error;
there is not one that can save you."
(Isaiah 47:12-15 NASB)

Heed the warning. Each man must be careful how he builds. Build up the church with doctrines that can save, so you will have reward, and so you yourself won't be destroyed.

 

[FreeGrace]

This is what Romans 6:23 and Romans 11:29 says -

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.for the gifts and the calling of God are [is] irrevocable.

Reasonable people know exactly what these 2 verses teach; eternal life is irrevocable. The subject in both verses deal with God's gifts. Not death, as is being claimed. Just a very poor attempt to distance the 2 verses from each other. Which cannot be done. Tried, yes, but not done.

It's bible scripture, and can not be refuted.

Right. Eternal life being an irrevocable gift of God cannot be refuted. Correct.

This is what Romans 6:23 and Romans 11:29 says.

It's irrefutable.

Right. 6:23 says eternal life is a gift of God.
11:29 says that the gifts of God are irrevocable.
Therefore, eternal life, being a gift of God, is most definitely irrevocable.

Yes, and the scriptures Romans 6:23 and Romans 11:29 confirms this and can not be refuted.

Glad you've finally understood the truth.

Now that you agree, with me and what Romans 6:23 and Romans 11:29 say, you can drop your "interpretation".

There is no "interpretation".

Does Rom 6:23 describe eternal life as a gift of God? yes or no. Please answer.
Does Rom 11:29 claim that the gifts of God are irrevocable? yes or no. Please answer.

Because this is what Romans 6:23 and Romans 11:29 says, and it can not be refuted.

So please just answer the 2 simple and direct questions above.

By joining these two scriptures together this way, this teaches the truth by which everything else in the bible must be measured by.

Dang tooting it is.

 

[FreeGrace]

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

As I said, "Again, no one from your side has ever shown from Scripture that ceasing to believe results in ceasing to be saved."

In the passage we note these things:

1. He's speaking to saved people, not people who are 'not really' saved.
2. Being presently saved is conditional on 'if' you presently hold fast the word by which you are saved.

But one must understand what "holding fast" actually means in the Greek, which you seem unable to accept.

3. Believing in vain does not change the fact that salvation is conditional on holding fast the word for those who are saved.

If one "believes in vain", meaning without reason, they are not saved. That's what Paul taught.

What this means is, when a teacher tells the church they are still saved even when they stop holding fast the gospel word, and a person then stops holding fast the gospel word thinking they are still saved

This extreme hypothetical doesn't actually exist in the real world. Because those who may cease to believe would never be in the church and under a teacher. So no teacher would ever have the opportunity to make such a stupid claim to such a person.

they destroy that person and Paul says the one who taught them that will themselves be destroyed:

"17If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are." (1 Corinthians 3: 17 NASB)

Since no teacher would even have the opportunity to teach one who has ceased believing, your "interpretation" of this verse doesn't make any sense.

" 4The wicked are not so,
But they are like chaff which the wind drives away.
5Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment,
Nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.
6For the LORD knows the way of the righteous,
But the way of the wicked will perish."
(Psalm 1:4-6 NASB)

Like I said, "Again, no one from your side has ever shown from Scripture that ceasing to believe results in ceasing to be saved."

When we raise up wicked people in the church by what we teach, like telling believers they can stop believing and go back to the world and they will still be saved

The truth of eternal security doesn't change the FACT that no proper Bible teacher would EVER teach that.

" 20Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil;
Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness;
Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!
21Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes
And clever in their own sight!
24Therefore, as a tongue of fire consumes stubble
And dry grass collapses into the flame,
So their root will become like rot and their blossom blow away as dust;
For they have rejected the law of the LORD of hosts
And despised the word of the Holy One of Israel."
(Isaiah 5:20-21,24 NASB)

Like I said, "Again, no one from your side has ever shown from Scripture that ceasing to believe results in ceasing to be saved."

12

“Keep on, then, with your magic spells
and with your many sorceries,
which you have labored at since childhood.
Perhaps you will succeed,
perhaps you will cause terror.
13All the counsel you have received has only worn you out!
Let your astrologers come forward,
those stargazers who make predictions month by month,
let them save you from what is coming upon you.
14Surely they are like stubble;
the fire will burn them up.
They cannot even save themselves
from the power of the flame.
These are not coals for warmth;
this is not a fire to sit by.
15That is all they are to you—
these you have dealt with
and labored with since childhood.
All of them go on in their error;
there is not one that can save you."
(Isaiah 47:12-15 NASB)

Like I said, "Again, no one from your side has ever shown from Scripture that ceasing to believe results in ceasing to be saved."

Heed the warning. Each man must be careful how he builds. Build up the church with doctrines that can save, so you will have reward, and so you yourself won't be destroyed.

So quit teaching believers to be worried about ending up in hell when Jesus Christ PROMISED that those who believe:
HAVE eternal life
WILL NOT come into judgment
HAVE PASSED from spiritual death to eternal life, John 5:24

Does it build up the church to teach what is contrary to what Jesus Christ taught? No.

 

[JLB]

Reasonable people know exactly what these 2 verses teach; eternal life is irrevocable.

Reasonable people who who know and believe the truth, don't take scriptures out of context, and splice them together with another scripture, leaving out the parts they choose to ignore to create a man made doctrine that supersedes the rest of scripture.

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. for the gifts and the calling of God are [is] irrevocable.

Then you claim, based on this "interpretation", that it is not necessary to continue to believe any longer in Christ, because now the person has eternal life in which can never be revoked.


All someone has to do is examine the life of Judas Iscariot, to see just how unbiblical your man made "theory" really is.

Judas "heard the voice of Jesus", and "followed Him for three and one half years", was an Apostle being sent with the others and preached the Gospel and worked signs and wonders, and cast out devils.

He then betrayed Jesus Christ.


Was Judas still saved?


JLB

 

[JLB]

Right. 6:23 says eternal life is a gift of God.
11:29 says that the gifts of God are irrevocable.
Therefore, eternal life, being a gift of God, is most definitely irrevocable.

Romans 6:23 and Romans 11:29 says this: Death is irrevocable.

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.for the gifts and the calling of God are [is] irrevocable.


You see, by your method of interpreting the scriptures a person can cut and paste and mix and match whatever they want to come up with whatever they decide.

We are to read what the scriptures say as a whole, not just take the parts we decide to believe and discard the rest like a spoiled child who only decides to eat the ice cream [milk] and discard the whole meal.

A healthy person can't just drink milk their whole life, but must also eat their meat.

How can you have any pudding, if you don't eat your meat?

12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. 13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe.14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. Hebrews 5:12-14


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

As I said, "Again, no one from your side has ever shown from Scripture that ceasing to believe results in ceasing to be saved."

Denial is not an argument.

It's written clear as day in our Bibles, but I understand how the power of indoctrinations work: When the church teaches it's people to rationalize away plain scripture over and over and over the church will indeed not be able to see the truth anymore. But an honest, seeking heart will eventually see the truth and be set free from these indoctrinations.

While it is important that God's people be set free from these spirits at work in the church today to lead her astray it is equally important that insincere people in the church be drawn away by them. That's God plan. Let's just be careful to be on the right side of that plan.

But one must understand what "holding fast" actually means in the Greek, which you seem unable to accept.

It's a present tense holding onto the gospel that you are presently saved by. But you have decided for the sake of your doctrine that it is a past tense verb that says it is a holding fast one did in the past that accomplished salvation at that time in the past and does not of necessity have to continue in the present for one to be saved. But any honest Christian can check this out for themselves and see that what I say is correct, and that what you teach is not:

2by which also you are (presently) saved, if you (presently) hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB parenthesis mine)

https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1co/15/1/t_conc_1077002

http://ezraproject.com/id27.html

People who take the time to investigate this because they are honest, and courageous enough to face the truth, and they then continue in their faith because of what they have learned, they will be my reward for my labor in the building of God. They are my work in the building of God. Those who don't listen can't be my reward for sharing this truth because if they don't continue to hold fast the word in order to be presently saved they will not be saved but will be burned up in the final Judgment. They will be as hay, wood, and stubble and won't be on the other side of the fire to be a reward for me. The teachers who labor in the building of God to build these kinds of people (hay, wood, and stubble) into the building of God will see their work burned up. And depending on if they started out in and continued in the gospel word, they may or may not pass through themselves. Harsh words, but this is exactly what the Bible tells us.

But by all means, Freegrace, if you can provide some credible source that says the holding fast of the word and the salvation it produces is past tense and does not have to continue in order to be saved please share it. You just saying it is past tense isn't going to cut it in the face of the credible sources I've cited above.