Piper is wrong.
Rom 5:18 "Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life."
The same "all men" to condemnation are the same "all men" unto justification.
Paul's point is this, mankind has received both condemnation and justification of life (grace) Tts 2:11.
Paul is NOT saying "all men" received condemnation and these same "all men"will receive justification of life for that would be Universalism.
Paul is saying all who have been affected by sin entering the world through Adam and condemned can take advantage of Christ's crucifixion to remedy that sin. As one commentator more aptly puts it " Paul asserts that the benefits of the death of Christ are available to as many who are also affected by the fact that sin was introduced into the world."
It was NOT just the supposed Calvinistic elect who have been affected and condemned by sin entering the world but all mankind therefore it is all mankind that the benefit of Christ's death is available to.
Piper mentioned a few verses he thinks proves limited atonement I will touch on a couple for I don't have the time for all.
Piper says "1 John 2:2, "He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world."
The "whole world" refers to the children of God scattered throughout the whole world."
John is writing to Christians so Christians is "ours" and "but" is a contrasting word. So Christ did not die just for the sins of those who are Christians BUT for the sins of the whole world which is made up of Christians and non-Christians alike.
Piper says "There are many Scriptures which say that the death of Christ was designed for the salvation of God's people, not for every individual. For example:
John 10:15, "I lay down my life for the sheep." The sheep of Christ are those whom the Father draws to the Son. "You do not believe, because you do not belong to my sheep." Notice: being a sheep enables you to become a believer, not vice versa. So the sheep for whom Christ dies are the ones chosen by the Father to give to the Son."
Here is a post of mine from another forum covering this topic:
John 8:47 "He that is of God (belongs to God) heareth God's words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God."
This verse is similar to John 10:26 "But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you." In Jn 8:47 hearing does not mean just hearing an audible noise but carries the idea of an obedient hearing, understanding, perceiving, it carries the same idea as believing. One that hears Christ believes Christ. So the same argument I make for Jn 8:47 is the same for Jn 10:26.
In the context leading up to verse 47 in John chapter 8, there are two issues: 1) belief and 2) belonging to God that are being presented. To understand verse 47 in its context, one needs to understand that Jesus and the Jews are not dealing with these two issues on the same level, not with the same perspective.
(1) the issue of believing
In Jn 8:30,31 we are told the the Jews believed but yet in verse 45 it says the Jews believe not. This is not a contradiction for in verses 30 and 31 the type of belief the Jews had was a superficial, mental assent of the mind belief only that does not make one a disciple. But the belief Jesus speaks of that makes one a 'disciple indeed' in verse 31 is a self-sacrificing, totally obedient, complete commitment to Christ type belief. This type of belief can be possessed only by those who are already disciples. So we have two different levels of belief spoken about in the context; the kind these Jews had and the kind Christ said they should have to be disciples indeed.
(2) the issue of belonging to God
The Jews said they were children of Abraham, verse 33 and ultimately children of God, verse 41. Simply through physical birth, the Jews were the seed of Abraham and therefore born into a covenant relationship with God. In this sense they belong to God by means of being born into a covenant relationship.
On the other hand, Jesus acknowledged that Abraham was the father of these Jews, verse 37, yet at the same time Jesus tells them their father is the devil, verse 44. Again, this is not a contradiction for they were the physical seed of Abraham yet the devil was their spiritual father. So the Jews on one level saw themselves belonging to God by being the physical descendants of Abraham while Jesus saw belonging to God on another level not through physical means but spiritual.
So with this background in mind we can look at verse 47.
Verse 47a Jesus says "He that is of/belongeth to God heareth (believeth) God's words:..."
Looking at 47a from the Jews' perspective, the Jews saw themselves being of God because they were the physical descendants of Abraham and therefore born into a covenant relationship with God. We were told the Jews believed in verse 30 and 31 but this was not the type of belief that makes them disciples of Christ.
Looking at 47a from Christ's perspective, the Jews did not spiritually belong to God but to the devil and the Jews did not have the kind of belief (hearing) that would make them disciples indeed.
So to paraphrase this verse from Christ's perspective:
"He that is spiritually of God is My disciple indeed: you Jews are not My disciples for you are of your spiritual father the devil."
So we have Christ's perspective that one belongs to God in the spiritual sense not simply belonging to God by being physically born as the Jews saw it. Jesus saw that the type of belief that makes one a disciple is one of total obedience and commitment and not a simple mental acknowledgment as the Jews had.
So the context has nothing at all to do with the Calvinistic idea of predestination in that one cannot believe or belong to God unless God first chose you before the beginning of the world. That idea puts blame and culpability upon God. The context has to do with the different perspectives between Christ and those Jews as to what it means to believe and belong to God.
A very good scriptural response to the doctrine of Predestination/election.
The statement by Danus is an argument based solely on the concept of satisfaction which is also unscriptural. It is a misunderstanding of the fall. What happened in the fall?
Adam sinned, but that is not where it ends. Sin, the consequence of that sin was loss of life. Man lost his eternal existance. Man was taken by satan and fell into his power which was death. Man was condemned to die, dust to dust, Gen 3:19. Because man physically is so connected to the material world, having been made from dust, the world itself was also subjected to corruption and decay.
What does this mean?
It means that Satan has complete control over this world and what happens to it. The world, along with man is all dissolved by death. Corruption and decay, man simply ceases to exist as a human being.
Since man, now a mortal being, living in a state of death cannot save himself. How can a mortal man give himself immortality or eternal existance? How could man even atone for his own sin, let alone the sin of the world?
Christ came to overcome this death and sin. Christ freed mankind, the world from the bondage to death and sin. He accomplished two significant works by His life and resurrection.
Christ became man, assumed our fallen human natues in order to raise that nature to life. If death to man came through his nature, then life must also be brought through that same nature.
The primary work is Christ's Incarnation and resurrection. By His resurrection He gave eternal existance, (life) to the world, all men. This world will not be dissolved by death. Satan and his power of death Heb 2:14 has been destroyed.
Christ also fulfilled the law and became the perfected Lamb for the one-time sacrifice atoning for the sin of the world.
While we were yet sinners Christ died for the ungodly. There is no wrath here, there is no understanding that God's justice must be satisfied because some higher law than God must be revenged.
It is Love, Mercy and Justice toward man. God in His great love came down and became man, so that we might become like Christ to share in His Divine Nature. Mercy in that God brought man and the world back to the prefall condition whereby man could freely join with God in an eternal relationship.
Justice: Besides just defeating Satan and destroying his hold over this creation, God thought it quite unjust that man, all men, should be condemned to death on the one sin of one man. God desired and created man so that each man could freely choose to either be with God or reject Him. Not be condemned by one man to annihilation. Not that this would be so catistrophic for man, but that God was unable to follow through with His plan of creating man, a creature after His own Image in order to have union and communion with Him for an eternity.
Now, Satan and death is defeated, God is in control. And man can freely respond to God again with eternal consequences. Man's individual salvation is all based on man's free volitional, rational decision and to remain as well. All men now have the same choice, are under the very same commandment as as Adam in the beginning.
Christ did not save some as predestination states. He also did not come to satisfy some higher authority than God to assuage some kind of injustice done to God.
Christ did not save individual man to some sort of union or even save man from hell. Without Christ's work of redemption of the world, there is no such thing as hell. Who would exist eternally to be in heaven or hell when man was already condemned to death, dust to dust.
There can be no such thing as a limitation upon the work of Christ. He assumed our human natures and did all of this work through His Incarnation and healed our mortal nature, gave life to it again. A limited atonement or particular salvation is a direct denial of the Incarnation and the salvfic content of that Incarnation.
Here are some of the more direct texts that all speak of the universality of death, and the universality of Christ overcoming death.
Gen 3:15, Gen 3:19, Rom 5:12, Rom 5:18, I Cor 15:13-23 with a very direct summary, an equation in both Rom 5:18 and I Cor 15:22, Heb 2:12-14.
Additional texts, Rom 11:32, II Cor 5:18-19, Col 1:20, Acts 24:15, John 6:39, Rev 20:12-13. Rom 3:23-25. There are others, but these are the most straightforward and direct regarding Christ overcoming death and why He is called the Savior of the world, John 4:42, I John 4:14.
no I'm not. I was confused on your last response so I wanted some clarification on what you where saying. Still don't know, but that's OK.
