I never said that. My contention is those best able to translate the Hebrew bible are those who are objective and fluent in Hebrew. When you read the KJB, for example, it is evident to anyone fluent in Hebrew that certain passages have been mistranslated and tampered with to put forward a Christological message which does not exist in the original Hebrew. There are many such examples in Isaiah 53.
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I never said that. My contention is those best able to translate the Hebrew bible are those who are objective and fluent in Hebrew. When you read the KJB, for example, it is evident to anyone fluent in Hebrew that certain passages have been mistranslated and tampered with to put forward a Christological message which does not exist in the original Hebrew. There are many such examples in Isaiah 53.
No you didn't say it outright but it certainly is your contention that only Hebrew scholars can understand the Old Testament. You just repeated it again though even more subtley. Though I am not fluent in Hebrew I do have the resources to enable me to find out what the Hebrew is saying. All of the scholars I check agree that the passage is Christological. As I said it is a matter of interpretation. That is exactly the problem that the Lord had with the Pharisees, they interpreted the Old Testament according to their tradition and missed Christ.
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savedbygrace57
Guest
Notwithstanding the fact that you should never terminate a sentence with a preposition, a) you have demonstrated nothing.
b) it is becoming obvious that you are unable to back up your "Truth" using appropriate scriptural analysis.
I can only show you the Truth, its up to God if ye believe it.
I guess your scholarly sources do not include the Revised Standard Version Oxford Study Bible or the New English Bible, just 2 Christian bibles that agree that the servant is Israel.
I am waiting for you to show me the Truth. I read your initial post. Do you want me to point out at least one error which completely changes the meaning of the passage?
Drew
Member
I disagree. As I hoped was clear from my text, I believe that to the extent an argument can be made that Jesus can be legitimately seen as the embodiment of corporate Israel, then it is perfectly coherent to see Isaiah 53 as descriptive of Jesus, specifically in terms of His acting as Israel.
I will give you the benefit of the doubt that this seeming insult, entirely without justification, was not intended to come across as implying that I engaging in disingenuous behvaviour. I have been completely above board and not ignored context - I am well acquainted with the issue of legitimately identifying as single person - such as Jesus - with national Israel. Please do not assume that the brevity of my response indicates that I have not properly accounted for issues of context. Or that I do not appreciate and understand the "Israel" story in the Old Testament.To completely and wilfully ignore this is just disingenuous.
No insult intended. Sorry you took it that way. Drew, let me ask you a question. Do you, as a Christian believe that Jesus is the Son, ie the second person of the trinity?
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savedbygrace57
Guest
Who shall declare His Generation, that is His seed ps 22:
30A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
The Gospel Covenant will be made known to all the seed , His Generation..
30A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
The Gospel Covenant will be made known to all the seed , His Generation..
You need to look at context when discussing Isa 53. You have picked one line from a psalm of King David which has nothing to do with Jesus and the translation offered is lacking.
31. A seed shall worship Him; it shall be told to the generation concerning the Lord. לא. 32. They shall come and tell His righteousness to the newborn people, that which He has done
Zerah refers to physical offspring, ie progeny not to followers or disciples. The verses from the psalm reinforce this. David is saying that the seed of Israel that worships Hashem will tell of his righteousness to the next (ie newborn) generation.
Now if I may ask you a question. Who are the initial speakers in Isaiah 53?
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savedbygrace57
Guest
So the who shall declare His Generation is His seed. God has Promised to preseve the word of Truth through the seed unto genration after generation.
isa 59:
21As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.
The Lip of Truth is established forever ! Prov 12:19
The lip of truth shall be established for ever: but a lying tongue is but for a moment.
As usual, you quote one line from the scriptures and try to retrofit it to the seed passage even though it has been explained that Isaiah uses the term zera to refer to physical offspring. If Isaiah wanted to talk about followers, disciples or spiritual "sons", the word "banim" would have been used. BTW, why don't you also quote the v20 so that the meaning would be more clear in context-
20. And a redeemer shall come to ZION, and to those who repent of transgression in JACOB, says the Lord. כ. 21. "As for Me, this is My covenant with them," says the Lord. "My spirit, which is upon you and My words that I have placed in your mouth, shall not move from your mouth or from the mouth of your seed and from the mouth of your seed's seed," said the Lord, "from now and to eternity."
Isaiah is referring to the covenant that Hashem made with Israel (Jacob) at Sinai-once again re-affirming that it is forever.
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savedbygrace57
Guest
So Jesus, who is the Covenant Head, and came as the Messenger of the Covenant, Proclaimed it to His Brethren, His Generation Heb 2:12
Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.
This corresponds to Jn 17:
6I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.
This corresponds to Jn 17:
6I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
It sounds a lot like you're a believer of Harald Camping's heresies. How many posts do you need to say what you need to say. This is at least the 2nd I've sen to say that basically argue the same point. And why bother when you refuse to accept the truth when it's presented to you?
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savedbygrace57
Guest
mcorton:
Nope he is a false prophet. I am a True Christian, rare these days..
Nope he is a false prophet. I am a True Christian, rare these days..
When you are ready to do a line by line analysis of the chapter, let me know. I will be happy to respond with my translation. Also let me know what bible you are using.One final question, don't you realize that Isaiah identifies the servant in the other Servant Songs?
Here's something to chew on.
53:
[3] He was despised and isolated from men, a man of pains and accustomed to illness. As one from whom we would hide our faces; he was despised, and we had no regard for him.
That's the kings and nations of 52:15 speaking. Not the first time Isaiah has spoken like this....
Isa 49
3 And said to me, thou art My servant, O Israelin whom I will be glorified!
7 For so said the Lord, the redeemer of Israel, his Holy One, about him who is despised of men,about him whom the nation abhors, about a slave of rulers, "Kings (understood as nations) shall see and rise, princes, and they shall prostrate themselves,for the sake of the Lord Who is faithful, the Holy One of Israel, and He chose you (understood as the nation and not one person)." 8 So said the Lord, "In a time of favor I answered you, and on a day of salvation I helped you; and I will watch you, and I will make you for a people of a covenant, to establish a land, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages. 13 Sing, O heavens, and rejoice, O earth, and mountains burst out in song, for the Lord has consoled His people, and He shall have mercy on His afflicted. 14 But Zion said, "The Lord hasforsaken me, and the Lord hasforgotten me." 15 Shall a woman forget her suckling child, from having mercy on the child of her womb? These too shall forget, but I will not forget you (again referring to the nation).
Isaiah 54:4-7, 11, 14, 17
4 Fear not, for you shall not be ashamed, and not embarrassed, for you shall not be put to shame; for the shame of your youth you shall forget, and for the humiliationof your widowhood you shall no longer be remembered. 5 Nor your maker is your husband; the Lord Hosts is His name, and your redeemer the Holy One of Israel shall be called the God of all the earth. 6 For like a wife who is forsaken and afflicted in spirit has the Lord called you, and a wife of one’s youth who was rejected, said your God. 7 For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.
11 O thou afflicted, who was not consoled, behold I will lay thy stones with fair colors, and lay thy foundations with sapphires.
14 With righteousness shall you be established, for you will be far from oppression, for you will not fear; and from ruin, for it will not come near you.
17 No weapon that is formed against you will prosper, and any tongue that rises against you in judgement, you shall condemn; this is the heritage of the servants of the Lord and their righteousness is from Me, says the Lord.
Isaiah 60:14-15
14 The sons of them (Gentiles) that afflicted youshall come bending unto you; and all they that despised you shall bow themselves down at the soles of your feet; and they shall call you, the city of the Lord, Zion of the Holy One of Israel. 15 Whereas you have been forsaken and despised,with no passerby, I will make you an everlasting pride, the joy of every generation.
Isaiah is talking about the righteous of Israel here- over and over- not Jesus.
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savedbygrace57
Guest
edwin:
Thats Jesus being spoken of. He is Gods True servant Israel, whom God is Glorified. Jn 17:4
I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
Thats Jesus being spoken of. He is Gods True servant Israel, whom God is Glorified. Jn 17:4
I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
You must be joking.:bigfrown. 2 questions. 1) Where is Jesus specifically called "Israel"? 2) do you as a "true christian" believe in the trinity?
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savedbygrace57
Guest
edwin asked:
Isa 49:
3And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.
He is God's Servant phil 2:5
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
And, as I showed, God His Father was Glorifed by Him Jn 17:
4I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
Yes, but this thread is not about the Trinity right now, I have other threads for that.
Isa 49:
3And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.
He is God's Servant phil 2:5
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
And, as I showed, God His Father was Glorifed by Him Jn 17:
4I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
Yes, but this thread is not about the Trinity right now, I have other threads for that.
1) You have not answered my first question. We know, for example that the patriarchs are called by name: Abraham, Issac, and Jacob (Israel). Show us where Jesus is specifically called "Israel".
2) There are serious problems with saying that Jesus is a servant. Since Jesus is the incarnation of G-d (according
to Christian theology), a co-equal member of the trinity and not a separate entity, he must be the same, he could
not be inferior. He could not be either subject to the will of another, nor could he be said to lack the freedom to
act in all areas. How could part of the godhead be called a servant to another part of itself, and still be coequal?
The servant here cannot be a 'part' of the godhead. Either we must assume that Jesus is not a part of the trinity,
or the Messiah of Christians is not the one meant by Isaiah 53. The questions of 'wills' here is also one that is
problematic. How could Jesus be subject to the will of the Father, when he is, according to Christian theology,
the same?
Isa41:
8. But you, Israel My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham, who loved Me, ח. 9. Whom I grasped from the ends of the earth, and from its nobles I called you, and I said to you, "You are My servant"; I chose you and I did not despise you. ט. 10. Do not fear for I am with you; be not discouraged for I am your God: I encouraged you, I also helped you, I also supported you with My righteous hand. י. 11. Behold all those incensed against you shall be ashamed and confounded; those who quarreled with you shall be as nought and be lost. יא. 12. You may seek them but not find them, those who quarrel with you; those who war with you shall be as nought and as nothing. יב. 13. For I, the Lord your God, grasp your right hand; Who says to you, "Fear not, I help you." יג. 14. Fear not, O worm of Jacob, the number of Israel; "I have helped you," says the Lord, and your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.
Please explain how Jesus,whom you believe is God can be fearful, can be his own servant. If the servant is Jesus why is God calling him or should I say calling himself a "worm"- a term used to designate someone degraded and humiliated. BTW according to the Greek Testament and law of patrilineal tribal descent, Jesus is not of the seed of Abraham either.