Why aren't Christians defeating the pornographers?

[Wheat Field]

According to a report by Dame Rachel de Souza (the UK's Children's Commissioner), 10% of 9 year olds have seen pornography. She also says there is evidence that shows a link between young people watching porn and incidents of child on child sexual abuse. In her words: "I am categorically clear: no child should be able to access or watch pornography." A study by Bernardo's found that more than half of child sexual abuse cases in the UK are perpetrated by children (2022 - up from a third in 2013).

Over a dozen states in the US have declared porn a public health crises.

According to Fight the New Drug:
Decades of studies from respected institutions have demonstrated significant impacts of porn consumption for individuals, relationships, and society. 73% of teens have seen porn. At least 1 in 3 porn videos show sexual violence of aggression. 53% of boys and 39% of girls believe pornography is a realistic depiction of sex. Porn consumers tend to be less satisfied in relationships, less committed, and more permissive of cheating. There is virtually no way to guarantee that pornographic content is consensual. Exploitation and trafficking are common experiences in the porn industry.

Why has there not been a concerted push back by Christians (who number some 2.38 billion people according to PEW research) against the pornographic industry? NCOSE (National Centre on Sexual Exploitation) began as a Christian movement and have had some limited success.

At the sermon on the mount Jesus said:
“You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot. You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven."

Ellicott's commentary on this use of 'salt of the earth' states:
The words are spoken to the disciples in their ideal character, as the germ of a new Israel, called to a prophetic work, preserving the earth from moral putrescence and decay. The general reference to this antiseptic action of salt is enough to give an adequate meaning to the words...

At the very least, adults are failing to protect children from seeing this material - surely a damning indictment? We are failing because we could have made sure children were protected from seeing it BEFORE we allowed porn to be as accessible as it is. Anyone accessing porn (whether they are Christian or not) is fuelling the industry and may end up actually watching someone being raped.

Porn is damaging the whole of society - not just our children.

I will add that I am not pointing the finger at everyone but myself - on the contrary, I point at all of us.

 

[Hopeful 2]

You are aware that concubines served to sexually satisfy a man who's wife couldn't or wouldn't and yet you cannot say if God approved of it or not?

Show the verses where God forbad concubines.

We know that Moses permitted divorce for all sorts of reasons - reasons other than the only one Jesus said justified a divorce. We also know He boldly asserted, 'it was not like this in the beginning'. It perhaps wouldn't be leap to infer the same about polygamy.

Had God disapproved, He would have had some prophet say so.

Do you dispute the translation from the Greek of 1 Timothy 3:2 - a 'one woman man'? Even if we take the more liberal interpretation of 'faithful to his wife', it is clear that having more than one is not considered above reproach and is equated with other 'sins' like drunkenness and violence.

If a man has two wives, he "has one wife".
1 Tim.'s message is only that a bishop must have been married.
If he can run a faithful family, he can run a faithful church.

How is it possible to be faithful to one's wife if you have more than one? Paul does NOT say faithful to one's wives.

It is possible.
If he is married to both wives, neither he nor either wife are committing adultery.

 

[Wheat Field]

Show the verses where God forbad concubines.

It is inferred from Matthew 5:27,28 which I have already cited. Anyone with more than one wife will be looking lustfully at (another) woman as Jesus described.

Had God disapproved, He would have had some prophet say so.

I am not aware of any law that prohibits abortion. We do know that Soranus (2nd century physician) gave advice on ways to abort.

Romans 7:1-3, Matthew 5:27,28, Matthew 19:8,9 and 1 Timothy 3:1ff all imply that the model is one wife. Genesis 2:24 should be mentioned also.

If a man has two wives, he "has one wife".

If a man has two wives, then he has two wives, not one and he is clearly committing adultery. Either of the wives could at any moment claim so.

1 Tim.'s message is only that a bishop must have been married.

It does not say that.

If he can run a faithful family, he can run a faithful church.
It is possible.
If he is married to both wives, neither he nor either wife are committing adultery.

See above.

 

[Wheat Field]

Show the verses where God forbad concubines.

Had God disapproved, He would have had some prophet say so.

If a man has two wives, he "has one wife".
1 Tim.'s message is only that a bishop must have been married.
If he can run a faithful family, he can run a faithful church.

It is possible.
If he is married to both wives, neither he nor either wife are committing adultery.

Can the man who is married to more than one wife or concubine be described as one flesh with his partner as in Genesis 2? One flesh?

The model given is one man with one woman becoming one flesh (with the oneness of consummation clearly in mind).

 

[Hopeful 2]

It is inferred from Matthew 5:27,28 which I have already cited. Anyone with more than one wife will be looking lustfully at (another) woman as Jesus described.

Marriage solves that adultery problem.

I am not aware of any law that prohibits abortion. We do know that Soranus (2nd century physician) gave advice on ways to abort.

"Thou shalt not kill" fills the bill.

Romans 7:1-3, Matthew 5:27,28, Matthew 19:8,9 and 1 Timothy 3:1ff all imply that the model is one wife. Genesis 2:24 should be mentioned also.

That is your interpretation of it, but not mine.

If a man has two wives, then he has two wives, not one and he is clearly committing adultery. Either of the wives could at any moment claim so.

Can't the man with two wives honestly say he has a wife ?

It does not say that.
See above.

It sure does say it, with the reasoning included.
"One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)" (1 Tim 3:4-5)

 

[Hopeful 2]

Can the man who is married to more than one wife or concubine be described as one flesh with his partner as in Genesis 2? One flesh?

The husband is one flesh with each of his wives.

The model given is one man with one woman becoming one flesh (with the oneness of consummation clearly in mind).

Was Abraham an adulterer because he had two wives ?
Was Jacob an adulterer because he had three wives ?
God never chastised them because if it, and neither will I.

 

[Wheat Field]

Marriage solves that adultery problem.

Adultery is still adultery whether a piece of paper says 'married' or not; the sexual act has still taken place.

"Thou shalt not kill" fills the bill.

Indeed and so does thou shalt not commit adultery.
Your excuse that polygamy isn't adultery would echo the excuse that a foetus isn't yet a person or isn't yet viable outside the womb.

That is your interpretation of it, but not mine.
Can't the man with two wives honestly say he has a wife ?

No.

It sure does say it, with the reasoning included.
"One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)" (1 Tim 3:4-5)

Nothing there that says an overseer must have a wife.

 

[Wheat Field]

The husband is one flesh with each of his wives.

Was Abraham an adulterer because he had two wives ?
Was Jacob an adulterer because he had three wives ?
God never chastised them because if it, and neither will I.

Jesus clearly does chastise those that look outside their marriage.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Adultery is still adultery whether a piece of paper says 'married' or not; the sexual act has still taken place.

Please show where God condemned multiple wives.
And perhaps you can show why He allows Abraham and Jacob to have more than one wife ?

Indeed and so does thou shalt not commit adultery.

How can that apply to abortion ?

Your excuse that polygamy isn't adultery would echo the excuse that a fetus isn't yet a person or isn't yet viable outside the womb.

Hardly.
I know murder is wrong in Gods eyes.
But where is it written that a man can't have more than one wife ?

No.

If a man has two or three wives, he can say he has a wife.

Nothing there that says an overseer must have a wife.

You are just ignoring it.
"(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)" (1 Tim 3:5)
Look at it with the Spirit of God, instead of the spirit of a Pharisee.
Open your mind !

 

[Hopeful 2]

Jesus clearly does chastise those that look outside their marriage.

Scriptures, relevant to Abraham and Jacob, please.
God even blessed the wives, and children, of those men.
Joseph and Benjamin came from Jacobs third wife !
Where was the condemnation ?

 

[Wheat Field]

According to 'Spiked' (a British online magazine):
It is impossible to separate the influence of pornography from the gender-identity movement, as both are aspects of the sex industry.

They cite John Money the Australian psychologist who coined the term 'gender identity:
...young children should be shown explicit pornography in order to assist them in their ‘transition’...

The Guardian newspaper reported back in 2022:
According to a study commissioned by NHS England, 10 years ago there were just under 250 referrals, most of them boys, to the Gender Identity Development Service (Gids), run by the Tavistock and Portman NHS foundation trust in London. Last year, there were more than 5,000, which was twice the number in the previous year.

 

[Wheat Field]

'Exodus Cry' are a Christian activist group striving against the porn industry. They were founded by Benjamin Nolot in 2007 and he recently interviewed undercover journalist Arden Young who (as part of Sound Investigations) exposed the fact that P*rnhub still hosts underage and non-consensual content.

Back in 2020 Nicholas Kristos of the New York Times exposed P*rnhub with his piece 'The Children of P*rnhub'. They were forced to remove 10 million out of the 13 million videos on their site. He wrote:

Its site is infested with rape videos. It monetizes child rapes, revenge pornography, spy cam videos of women showering, racist and misogynist content, and footage of women being asphyxiated in plastic bags. A search for “girls under18” (no space) or “14yo” leads in each case to more than 100,000 videos. Most aren’t of children being assaulted, but too many are.

After watching the Exodus Cry video it's clear that not much has changed. Why is P*rnhub being allowed to continue? Surely, that we live in a world that the term 'rape culture' accurately describes is beyond doubt? It's shocking.

Anyway, Christians clearly are fighting back and If you visit the Exodus Cry website you can sign their 'abolitionist pledge' (yes, Nolot was inspired by William Wilberforce).

 

[Wheat Field]

Please show where God condemned multiple wives.
And perhaps you can show why He allows Abraham and Jacob to have more than one wife ?

The OT's stance on polygamy remains troubling for me (as a non-Christian interested in Christ). However, as previously stated, Jesus's assertion that looking lustfully at another women is adultery implies that it is wrong to take more than one wife.

How can that apply to abortion ?

Hardly.
I know murder is wrong in Gods eyes.
But where is it written that a man can't have more than one wife ?

As suggested - if you deny that an unborn child is fully human then it isn't murder. Where does is say in the Bible that one must not murder a fetus? (To be clear - I am against abortion).

If a man has two or three wives, he can say he has a wife.

You are just ignoring it.
"(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)" (1 Tim 3:5)
Look at it with the Spirit of God, instead of the spirit of a Pharisee.
Open your mind !

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" (Luke 6:31 / Matthew 7:12)

Regarding 1 Timothy 3:5 which you think has Paul arguing that an overseer must have a wife - Paul also says:
1 Corinthians 7:32
I would like you to be free from concern. An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord’s affairs—how he can please the Lord.

In 1 Timothy 3:1-7 Paul specifically details examples of managing one's behaviour that has nothing to do with whether one is married or not. For example, he must be able to teach. Verse 2 simply states that a married overseer must be faithful to his wife. Nowhere does is say that he must have a wife.

Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task. Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him, and he must do so in a manner worthy of full respect. (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?) He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap.

If God actually approved of having multiple wives then I cannot see myself ever following Christ.

Since this forum does not allow push back from other Christians why don't you start a thread where it is allowed?

 

[WIP]

As suggested - if you deny that an unborn child is fully human then it isn't murder.

God is the judge, not us, so no matter how we spin it, sin is still sin.

 

[Wheat Field]

God is the judge, not us, so no matter how we spin it, sin is still sin.

? Not clear how that relates to what I wrote WIP. I don't approve of abortion - but I was making a point that in the same way there is no explicit proscription of polygamy (except Kings perhaps), there is no explicit proscription of murdering fetuses.

 

[WIP]

? Not clear how that relates to what I wrote WIP. I don't approve of abortion - but I was making a point that in the same way there is no explicit proscription of polygamy (except Kings perhaps), there is no explicit proscription of murdering fetuses.

This is when discernment comes into play. In Matthew we have Jesus' sermon on the mount and in there He expanded on such things as murder, adultery, marriage, swearing oaths, prayer, fasting, loving our enemies, etc. Why did He do this? Was it because the definition of those things changed? I propose the answer is no but that He was explaining the spirit of the law.

In our modern day judicial system we tend to focus more on the specific wording of the law. We do this to poke holes in the law in order to justify our own failings. When we do that we lose the spirit of the law. This attitude works its way into our Christian faith as well. We do our best to split hairs with God so that we can somehow justify our own sinfulness. It's that same old question presented to Eve when the serpent asked, "Did God really say....?"

 

[Wheat Field]

This is when discernment comes into play. In Matthew we have Jesus' sermon on the mount and in there He expanded on such things as murder, adultery, marriage, swearing oaths, prayer, fasting, loving our enemies, etc. Why did He do this? Was it because the definition of those things changed? I propose the answer is no but that He was explaining the spirit of the law.

In our modern day judicial system we tend to focus more on the specific wording of the law. We do this to poke holes in the law in order to justify our own failings. When we do that we lose the spirit of the law. This attitude works its way into our Christian faith as well. We do our best to split hairs with God so that we can somehow justify our own sinfulness. It's that same old question presented to Eve when the serpent asked, "Did God really say....?"

I essentially agree with you WIP. As you can probably see I am debating with a Christian who is in favour of polygamy, so my comments must be seen in that context.

I remain disappointed that the OT does not explicitly proscribe polygamy - on the contrary, it seems unconcerned by such behaviour (as we see with Abraham, Jacob, Solomon and David).

 

[Hopeful 2]

The OT's stance on polygamy remains troubling for me (as a non-Christian interested in Christ). However, as previously stated, Jesus's assertion that looking lustfully at another women is adultery implies that it is wrong to take more than one wife.

There is more than one reason to take a second wife.
Besides lust for their body, there may be a need for more help with the land or herds.
Got wives...got kids/free labor.
There may be a need for an heir.
A first wife might need help.

As suggested - if you deny that an unborn child is fully human then it isn't murder. Where does is say in the Bible that one must not murder a fetus? (To be clear - I am against abortion).

The bible doesn't say it.
It does say that only God can give life, however, and we have no right to end anyone's God given life.

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" (Luke 6:31 / Matthew 7:12)

That too !

Regarding 1 Timothy 3:5 which you think has Paul arguing that an overseer must have a wife - Paul also says:

Paul agrees with you, as he even included the reasons in 1 Tim 3:4-5.

1 Corinthians 7:32
I would like you to be free from concern. An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord’s affairs—how he can please the Lord.

Paul isn't writing about the qualifications for over-seeing a church, here.

In 1 Timothy 3:1-7 Paul specifically details examples of managing one's behaviour that has nothing to do with whether one is married or not. For example, he must be able to teach. Verse 2 simply states that a married overseer must be faithful to his wife. Nowhere does is say that he must have a wife.

You are misreading plain English.

Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task. Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him, and he must do so in a manner worthy of full respect. (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?) He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap.
If God actually approved of having multiple wives then I cannot see myself ever following Christ.

That is as lame a reason not to obey God as any other I've heard.

Since this forum does not allow push back from other Christians why don't you start a thread where it is allowed?

"Other" Christians ?
You aren't a Christian, so what are you talking about ?

 

[Wheat Field]

Could you put your response on a dedicated thread please Hopeful 2 so that we can keep on topic?

There is more than one reason to take a second wife.
Besides lust for their body, there may be a need for more help with the land or herds.
Got wives...got kids/free labor.
There may be a need for an heir.
A first wife might need help.

So the second and third wives aren't to be found in the bedroom? Being intimate with one's wife is fundamental is it not? Of course, that isn't the only main part of marriage...but, generally, if it's not part of a relationship then you are more friends than husband and wife.

You argument could just as easily work for polyandry...though perhaps for slightly different reasons.

The bible doesn't say it.
It does say that only God can give life, however, and we have no right to end anyone's God given life.

You didn't address the main part of what I said - whether a fetus is to be considered human. I do and would, but plenty don't.

That too !

You don't though. You'll have another wife (if you so desire) but you wont share another woman.

Paul agrees with you, as he even included the reasons in 1 Tim 3:4-5.

Paul isn't writing about the qualifications for over-seeing a church, here.

Nothing precludes the verse from including overseers.

You are misreading plain English.

That is as lame a reason not to obey God as any other I've heard.

So God advocates adultery and you think my excuse would be lame? For me that would make God immoral. Jesus clearly states that adultery is a valid reason for a man to divorce his wife. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Do unto others......

"Other" Christians ?
You aren't a Christian, so what are you talking about ?

I am saying you are only getting push back from me because that is the only thing permitted in this particular forum. Most Christians will absolutely disagree with your position.

According to Scholarly Community Encyclopedia:
The legal status of polygamy varies widely around the world. Polygyny is legal in 58 out of nearly 200 sovereign states, the vast majority of them being Muslim-majority countries in Africa and Asia.

 

[Christ_empowered]

What bothers me…,

So many in the secular world wring their hands over sexual abuse and such…psych and social science people even build careers on it…

But they not only don’t truly care their ethos is reinforcing the situation and even making it worse.


The gender transition issue to me indicates family and social decay and destruction. To top it off this occurring in the age of safer net cuts and do called austerity measures against a larger issue of international neoliberalism. Not good! Now one sees some nations extending their assisted suicide laws to cover the so called severely mentally ill. Eek it’s medically assisted suicide for the most vulnerable people…
Rambling. I don’t think outside of Christ that one has solid ground to stand against today’s culture of despair and death.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Could you put your response on a dedicated thread please Hopeful 2 so that we can keep on topic?


So the second and third wives aren't to be found in the bedroom? Being intimate with one's wife is fundamental is it not? Of course, that isn't the only main part of marriage...but, generally, if it's not part of a relationship then you are more friends than husband and wife.

You argument could just as easily work for polyandry...though perhaps for slightly different reasons.

You didn't address the main part of what I said - whether a fetus is to be considered human. I do and would, but plenty don't.

You don't though. You'll have another wife (if you so desire) but you wont share another woman.

Nothing precludes the verse from including overseers.

So God advocates adultery and you think my excuse would be lame? For me that would make God immoral. Jesus clearly states that adultery is a valid reason for a man to divorce his wife. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Do unto others......

I am saying you are only getting push back from me because that is the only thing permitted in this particular forum. Most Christians will absolutely disagree with your position.

According to Scholarly Community Encyclopedia:
The legal status of polygamy varies widely around the world. Polygyny is legal in 58 out of nearly 200 sovereign states, the vast majority of them being Muslim-majority countries in Africa and Asia.

Rather than make a new thread, I will just let it drop.