Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
-
Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
M
Mitspa
Guest
Yes! read on! the commandment produces a desire from the flesh to sin!
The strength of sin is the law!
Die to the law and you will die to sin!
It is also written that no one can be justified by the law!
Many points are made in the scriptures and all work together to reveal Gods will.
Again are you trying to say we are justified by keeping the law?
Because your selection of scriptures and rejection of others would suggest that is exactly what you are trying to do?
The scriptures warn against those who handle the Word of God with deception! Desiring to be teachers of the law and do not know what they are saying or trying to affirm.
So what are you trying to affirm? you seem to want to be justified by faith and yet put others under law?
M
Mitspa
Guest
I am sorry Digging but that is just false doctrine!
We are complete in Christ and as He is so are we in this world.
"Waiting for this to happen" ???
Know ye not that the Holy Spirit dwells within you?
Walk by faith and by the Spirit is not for when are in heaven but Now! Here in this world!
You cannot be justified by Christ and still be a sinner by law!
Now we still have a sinful flesh that must be put to death by walking in the spirit!
These things are made very clear in the epistles!
Do you think that these things were written in vain? That these truths are for when we get to heaven?
No the command is to be conformed to Image of Christ by His Spirit and righteousness IN THIS WORLD!
M
Mitspa
Guest
I am sorry but some have been so blinded by religion, and the veil of the flesh, that LIBERTY by the Spirit is not a truth they are willing to see!
Freely justified by His Grace! means exactly what it says!
The law is not of faith!
The strength of sin is the law!
For sin will not have dominion over you because you are not under law but under grace!
I dont understand how satan blinds, but he surely does!
digging
Member
"Waiting for this to happen" ???
Waiting for what the bible promises to come.
Luke 21:28 NAS
"But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."
Romans 8:23 NAS
And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.
Ephesians 4:30 NAS
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Hebrews 9:15 NAS
For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Digging
Waiting for what the bible promises to come.
Luke 21:28 NAS
"But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."
Romans 8:23 NAS
And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.
Ephesians 4:30 NAS
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Hebrews 9:15 NAS
For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Digging
Last edited by a moderator:
M
Mitspa
Guest
I am not sure of your point? are you saying that we cannot be redeemed by Christ until we are dead?
Do you have the Holy Spirit? Do you have the Divine Nature?
Your point is so unbiblical that I cannot relate to what you are trying to say?
So are none of the scriptures true until we are physically dead?
Or is it that you decide which ones are true for the believer?
This is pretty common on the "christian" forums!
Let me guess, God dont do that anymore? Or the scripture really is for somebody else? Or some will pretend to understand the Greek in some way to make the Word of no effect!
I have found you to be more honest than most, but what you are attempting to say is just so ungodly and so untrue that it leaves me in doubt of your intentions in our conversations?i
M
Mitspa
Guest
I do not desire to transgress the rules of the forum, so let me ask again what point are you trying to make?
What scripture is deemed to be untrue for believers in this world?
" walk in the spirit and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh" Is that not true until we get to heaven?
How about "sin will not have dominion over you because you are not under law but under grace"? Is grace only for us when we get to heaven?
Again I do not understand the point that you have made with these last two post?
digging
Member
Dear Mitspa,
Sometimes we need to try and be patient and listen and consider what each other is saying when we don't always think in the same patterns. This doesn't always mean that we are at odds. As I have said I've gone back and read some of your posts to get a clearer view of how you think and understand things.
So here is another example to explain what I'm saying. Yes, a very large Yes we have a great hope made sure in Christ and it is so good we can have joy as though all has been fufilled completely before they have.
Galatians 5:5 NAS
For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.
Acts 3:21 NAS
whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.
1 Corinthians 11:26 NAS
For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until He comes.
It's about when Jesus returns and all the promises are made yes in him. Why does it matter for Christ to return then if we are not yet waiting for something?
As you pointed out the scripture
" walk in the spirit and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh",
We just don't walk in the spirit completly yet, as I said it's like one foot is in the old world and the other in the Kingdom.
Digging
Sometimes we need to try and be patient and listen and consider what each other is saying when we don't always think in the same patterns. This doesn't always mean that we are at odds. As I have said I've gone back and read some of your posts to get a clearer view of how you think and understand things.
So here is another example to explain what I'm saying. Yes, a very large Yes we have a great hope made sure in Christ and it is so good we can have joy as though all has been fufilled completely before they have.
Galatians 5:5 NAS
For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.
Acts 3:21 NAS
whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.
1 Corinthians 11:26 NAS
For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until He comes.
It's about when Jesus returns and all the promises are made yes in him. Why does it matter for Christ to return then if we are not yet waiting for something?
As you pointed out the scripture
" walk in the spirit and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh",
We just don't walk in the spirit completly yet, as I said it's like one foot is in the old world and the other in the Kingdom.
Digging
Last edited by a moderator:
Davies
Member
Good morning,
I ran across this verse today.
1 Corinthians 7:17-19
New King James Version (NKJV)
Live as You Are Called
17 But as God has distributed to each one, as the Lord has called each one, so let him walk. And so I ordain in all the churches. 18 Was anyone called while circumcised? Let him not become uncircumcised. Was anyone called while uncircumcised? Let him not be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.
We could survey the commands God gives us in the New Testament, but having the understanding that justification comes through the righteousness of Jesus alone, this must be a reference to sanctification. Is that what you guys understand?
Oh, Mistpa, I think you asked me if I was saying we are justified by keeping the Law because of the verses I quoted earlier. Absolutely not.
- Davies
I ran across this verse today.
1 Corinthians 7:17-19
New King James Version (NKJV)
Live as You Are Called
17 But as God has distributed to each one, as the Lord has called each one, so let him walk. And so I ordain in all the churches. 18 Was anyone called while circumcised? Let him not become uncircumcised. Was anyone called while uncircumcised? Let him not be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.
We could survey the commands God gives us in the New Testament, but having the understanding that justification comes through the righteousness of Jesus alone, this must be a reference to sanctification. Is that what you guys understand?
Oh, Mistpa, I think you asked me if I was saying we are justified by keeping the Law because of the verses I quoted earlier. Absolutely not.
- Davies
M
Mitspa
Guest
I agee that we are "pressing" into the Kingdom!
We are in a process of being changed from glory to glory AS WE BEHOLD CHRIST! from faith to faith. for He is the Author and finisher of our faith.
But to take a few random scripture out their context to say that the Kingdom of God and the promises of God are not to believed, is not the point of any of those scriptures you quoted.
Biblical hope is not worldly hope "elpis" is a confident position held by a believer. Now to take the one scripture in Gal 5:5 out of its context which it used ?
For speaking to those who have been drawn back into law, "Christ has become of no effect to You who are justified by law you have fallen from grace"
for we by the spirit do "apekdechomia" (to expect fully) in hope "confident expectation" the righteousness of faith.
Meaning that the fruit of righteousness has a process of growth, in hope!
This scripture in NO WAY makes ALL THE OTHER scripture as regards to the righteousness we have in Christ, of no effect.
I think if one is looking for a reason to doubt, they can find a scripture to justify that doubt.
A true student of the Word, never will make one scripture true and then make a whole mulitude of scriptures untrue, to justify a position of doubt.
The question I would ask is the one Paul ask "know ye not that the Holy Spirit dwells within you"? Do you not know that Kingdom of God is present with you? Christ in you is THE HOPE!
true godliness is dying to the flesh and living by that which is in us.
All else is just not acceptable to me, nor do I think God is please with all these excuses that the "church" has made up to be in doubt and unbelief.
The first cast into the lake of fire are the fearful and unbelieving! THE LAW PROMOTES FEAR AND IS NOT OF FAITH!
M
Mitspa
Guest
thank you Davies! I aslo suggest that 1 John reveals to us the commandments of God in a very simple way, This is His Commandments, beleive upon His Son and love as he gave caommandment.
Paul wraps it all up in a simple statment? That nothing profits anything but faith working by love.
I suggest that this is the "simplicity of Christ" that Paul told us was to be gaurded against the deception of satan.
For satan deceived eve? "did God reall say" Did God really tell us not to eat from the tree of Knowledge of good and evil?
But we have the tree of life and He is Christ!
All righteousness, wisdom, holiness is found in Him alone!
M
Mitspa
Guest
From the fall of man, when man ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, man has had the false sense of moral ability. Man thinks himself able to judge according to a moral standard that he has of himself.
The purpose of the law of moses, was to defeat every man in their attempt to justfiy themselves by their own sense of right and wrong. By the law, God has proclaimed that no man is moral nor has any man the right to judge others by their own sense of righteousness.
God has taken righteousness out of the hands of man, and place all upon faith in Christ!
M
Mitspa
Guest
We see that the purpose of the law was to make ALL MEN GUILTY BEFORE GOD. that the law of moses "the ten commandments" The ministry of death and condemnation. 2 Cor 3 was to bring us to Christ that we might be justified by faith in Him.
The law was a witness of mans unrighteousness and righteousness of God in Christ.
So why does Paul and the other Apostles use the law to teach us about love? Because the letter was a picture of the Spirit and the Spirit being the law written upon the hearts of men.
Which is love. So then when they use the law to show us the moral righteousness of love, they are not pointing to the letter, but to the Spirit within all who have been born-again.
So then the law of moses, can not make a charge of sin against one who is in Christ, nor can it justify anyone by keeping any part of it.
1 John declares that we who are in Christ, can not sin?
We have died with Christ to the law, how can we who are justified by Christ be made a sinner by the Law of moses? It cannot happen!
But we can look at that righteousness we see in the law to help us to see that which is in us and that which we have in Christ!
For instance the sabbath in the law, shows us the holiness of rest. We know that rest is when we cease from our own dead works and trust in that which Christ has done. The spirit of Grace has come and by grace we labor.
Circumcision shows us the letter is an physical act! But true circumcision is a work of the Spirit upon the heart of men.
So then we can look at the types and shadows of the law but must understand our relationship to the law according to the gospel. Its all by the spirit!
M
Mitspa
Guest
Thanks Deb13! I hope this will help some to see how and why the examples of the law were used and our relationship with the law? Blessings upon you! for blessed is the man (or woman) in whom the Lord will not impute sin.
M
Mitspa
Guest
,
Know ye not that the Holy Spirit dwells within you?
I think the reason that some do not understand that all that the law reprsented by the letter, is true in the heart of all those who have received the Holy Spirit. The law written upon the heart. Love!
Being rooted and grounded in love you may be able to understand. I think those who have witnessed this supernatural love can understand what the Apostles mean when they say that all the law is fulfilled in love. When I understood by the love of God that to see others have all the blessings of God, coveteousness was overcome. How could I steal from one I desired to bless? Love is needed to understand the law is upon the heart. Walk in love makes no sense to the carnal mind of to the strength of mans flesh. But those who have it and have learned to walk in it, we understand how great the Royal Law is. We love, because He first loved us. Those who are under the law of moses, can never feel secure in His Love. They feel judged and they look to judge others. Hypocricy is the fruit of the flesh of all who look to the law. Love your bother as yourself? is not possible for those under law.
Know ye not that the Holy Spirit dwells within you?
I think the reason that some do not understand that all that the law reprsented by the letter, is true in the heart of all those who have received the Holy Spirit. The law written upon the heart. Love!
Being rooted and grounded in love you may be able to understand. I think those who have witnessed this supernatural love can understand what the Apostles mean when they say that all the law is fulfilled in love. When I understood by the love of God that to see others have all the blessings of God, coveteousness was overcome. How could I steal from one I desired to bless? Love is needed to understand the law is upon the heart. Walk in love makes no sense to the carnal mind of to the strength of mans flesh. But those who have it and have learned to walk in it, we understand how great the Royal Law is. We love, because He first loved us. Those who are under the law of moses, can never feel secure in His Love. They feel judged and they look to judge others. Hypocricy is the fruit of the flesh of all who look to the law. Love your bother as yourself? is not possible for those under law.
M
Mitspa
Guest
Rom 3:19
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Gal 3:10
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11
But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12
And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Gal 3:22
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23
But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
I find it really hard to understand how satan has so blinded much of the "church" It seems so few understand what is so clear?
Those who claim to honor the law always are the ones who dishonor the law?
Paul wrote that through faith we ESTABLISH the law?
Now in that same chapter Paul writes that "we know that whatsoever the law says, it says to those who are under law, to MAKE ALL MEN GUILTY BEFORE GOD. Thats it purpose!
Also in Gal. Paul wrote that the law was a tutor to bring us to Faith in Christ. But after faith has come, we are no longer under law.
So then the law when established, it an unbending standard thats true purpose is to show all men the sin that dwells in the flesh of all men.
That all man would turn away from the confidence of the flesh and seek the righteousness of faith by the spirit.
Now what has happened in the "church" is the law of moses has been made to bow down to religion and the flesh of men.
They do it by false doctrine! This part of the law has passed away and we now this portion etc.... They have made the law yeild to their carnal minds, they have caused the law to bend to a place where they think there flesh can keep it! They reject the clear scriptures that show that the law is one complete whole, every jot and tittle! They defeat the very clear purpose of the law, by lies and deceptions.
So basically they decide what part of the law to keep and how to keep it! They reject that there flesh is sinful, and they bring the law down to a standard they think they can justify themselves with.
These same people, always claim to honor Christ, but are really His greatest enemys! In their doctrines, Christ no longer forgives as He desires but as they desire! Jesus made ONE SACRIFICE FOR SINS FOREVER. he justifies freely by His Grace alone. He nor the Father accepts any works from the flesh of any man in any way. Grace is absolute grace!
Thus Paul wrote if its by works, then its no longer grace. If by grace its no longer by works, or else grace is not grace and works is not works.
Mixture has been brought into the chruch. The leven of hypocricy and wickedness have pulluted the gospel!
God hates this mixture! This is clearly the lukewarm church!
M
Mitspa
Guest
WE KNOW THAT WHATSOEVER THE LAW SAYS IT SAYS TO THOSE WHO ARE UNDER THE LAW, THAT THE WHOLE WORLD MAY BECOME GUILTY BEFORE GOD.
Jesus when He walk the earth, brought the law to its fullest measure? He said that it was not just the action of sin but even the thought of sin in the mind and heart!
Jesus never had an evil thought or action!
Only He could keep the law!
Has the standard of the law been changed? NO!
for all who attempt to justifiy themselves by the law are all guilty of breaking the law. If not in action then in thought!
No one can keep the letter of the law because we all have sin in our flesh. All who claim to uphold the law are hypocrites! They cannot keep it yet they judge others by it! They can never be justfied by it, yet they would lay its yoke upon others!
Why is the ROYAL LAW, described as love your brother as yourself? Because anyone who really keeps the Royal Law will be set free from the law of Moses?
How can one claim to keep the Royal law and judge others by a standard they cannot keep? How can one claim to keep the royal law and put a burden upon a brother that they cannot carry?
You see this wisdom of God, makes all men liars!
There is only ONE WAY! justified freely by His grace!
Not a mixture of our goodness and His! for NOTHING GOOD LIVES IN OUR FLESH.
so we can look at the law as a witness to Gods righteousness in Christ. For law was about Him.
The Love of God in Christ is given to us by the Holy Spirit. We love others with His love and in this way we fulfill all those righteous requirments we see in the law.
But we must first admit our condition, and through the law die to the law, with Christ.
The sabbath rest was a picture of this? For those who have CEASED from their own works (to justify by the law) have entered into Gods rest.
This commandment is fulfilled by faith and grace as all the others are.
If one breaks this commandment? you have broken them all.
Again do you see Gods wisdom? It is a mystery! the flesh must be crucified with Christ. Its witness and attempt to be justified must die with Him! The flesh looks to the letter and will produce hypocricy as its attempts to justify itselfs. This is the condition of the pharisee, children of satan who call themselves servants of God.
Cursed children, twice dead!
M
Mitspa
Guest
Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were through the law, wrought in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
7:6 But now we have been delivered from the law? that held us in death. "for ye shall surely die" That we should serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the letter.
7:7 Shall we say that the law is sin, In no way! but I had not known sin, unless the law had said THOU SHALT NOT COVET
7:8 but sin , taken opportunity by the Commandment, wrought in me all manner of evil desires. for apart from the law sin is dead.
THE STRENGTH OF SIN IS THE LAW! Paul never nor does the scriptures EVER BREAK THE LAW INTO PARTS! their is not a part that relates to the sacrifice that has passed and away! nor is there a "moral law" seperate from what Paul and the gospel speaks throughout scripture.
That is a lie brought into the chruch by satan!
Now why is satan so determined to get a believer under any part of the law, to earn there righteousness? Because if one attempts to justifiy themselves by the flesh in any way? They have lost the power of grace. Ye are cut off from Christ, ye have fallen from grace!
The bible is very clear, only grace can over come sin! For those who seem so worried about other peoples sin? Learn and preach the grace of God apart from the law and your hypocricy!
FOR SIN WILL NOT HAVE DOMINION OVER YOU, BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT UNDER LAW BUT UNDER GRACE.
what man has anything from God that he did not receive by grace? If they received it, why do they act like they have earned it?
Maybe all they have is what the pharisee had. A white painted tomb. Hypocrites!