Runmyramble
Member
Interesting...but one thing scripture does say...anyone that does righteous[frareth Gos..dont quote me] is acceptable unto God.
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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Why Do Christians Argue Against Works?
- Thread starter RBDERRICK
- Start date
This is a great post and should be read by everyone!
RBDERRICK
Supporter
Christian only at a local church.
So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure. (2 Thess 1)
RBDERRICK
Supporter
Is the Faith that works, and is the only faith that works.
The point being that doing God's righteousness must be with His righteousness within.
The difference between the filthy rags of man's righteousness, and the righteousness of Jesus Christ, is having Jesus Christ within the heart and soul and mind.
Even a murderer can do a good deed for someone else, when the mood strikes, but it does not justify him or her with God.
It is the Spirit of Christ that justifies the words and deeds without.
Even a bitter tongue can say something good from time to time.
Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter? (James)
Only the saints in Christ Jesus have sweet words and deeds from His sweet Spirit.
And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake. (Gen 8)
It was not the smoke of the offered beasts that the LORD smelled as so sweet, as it was the thankful and good heart of Noah.
Runmyramble
Member
I asked that because I had read something..or rather glanced something the wrong way...
There is a lot on this thread, but I have not read about who we are and how we change.
Jesus described us as being the branches of the vine. Our reactions to life and things define who we are and where we are going. In Christ the foundations have shifted, our processing of love, defence, security, ownership are all shifted. Rejoicing in difficult circumstances, not caring if we are treated as dirt while knowing in Christ we are children of the living God, rejoicing.
Those who talk against works are talking against Jesus transforming us, from our very foundations and every interaction we have with everyone. Paul talked about presenting believers to Christ as perfected, made whole in Him.
Peter talked that knowing love makes us different, when love flows from the heart.
It takes time, healing, resolution, growth, maturity, which cannot be manufactured but comes as fruit of following Jesus and doing and listening to His commands no matter how difficult and crazy they might sound.
It involves all aspects of who we are, which years ago I would have never understood or seen.
We are Gods workmanship, not our own.
God bless you
Runmyramble
Member
RBDERRICK
Supporter
There was a man with an old truck on a long overpass, that was holding up all manner of traffic to the highway.
A man stopped to pushed his truck off the overpass and down the highway to an open parking lot to wait in safety and our of traffic for someone he called.
There was an old woman reaching for a carton on a top shelf, and someone stopped to reach for her. I then heard him tell her with a smile to grow up and stop being so short. She laughed and said she would try.
This is all Jesus asks of His people, when the occasion arises and they have time and power to help.
Doing right and loving our neighbors doesn't always require a big sacrifice on our part.
The only difference between the saint and the neighborly sinner, is that the saint knows Jesus, and doesn't go on to do what all sinners do from time to time, Sinning with the devil against God.
The gospel and salvation and delivering grace of Jesus Christ is not just to become neighborly sinners.
RBDERRICK
Supporter
True.
For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
The simplicity of Christ is simply doing good, and not sinning for the devil.
So long as we are not sinning against Jesus, then we simply do whatever we do as unto Him, and it is good enough for Him.
Walking with Jesus our Lord and God is not hard.
Good understanding giveth favour: but the way of transgressors is hard. (Prov 13)
OK.
But do you think one has to ALSO believe in God AND do righteous acts?
"Walking with Jesus our Lord and God is not hard."
This is an interesting simplification. I say this because often I am waiting for something the Lord would say in different circumstances. It then struck me context often makes statements true or false. So it is hard to say something in an absolute sense in just a few words. The danger of a few words is then can override the context that puts them correctly with boundaries.
"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus," ..... "who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit." Rom 8:1,4
I have heard people miss-quote this verse as a absolute promise to all who have at some point been "in Christ Jesus" but are now living according to the sinful nature.
Equally there is an emotional war in our hearts, which we do not understand but know its reality. We often feel following God is hard, because the very things we hope we will not do, we find ourselves doing it automatically.
One answer to this is to say it is our sinful nature that is at play for which we have no responsibility. Another view is we have learnt emotional reactions embedded in our daily life, which we can learn to reset in Christ, but only when we repent, confess and face what is going on. An instance of this for me is denying I have rights, while being angry when they are affronted which then comes out inappropriately. It is better for me to set a scene and project my rights in Christ, and then know I have no frustrations, but rather am a loved child of God within context.
It was strange for me to realise Christ has given me a right for life in Him, in love, to be called a son of God, a child in His Kingdom, honoured and loved. And this right cannot be taken from me, or is something I have to fight about, but rather I can bend, humbly accept and take sinful punishment because of others distorted views of reality.
God bless you
I find that the older I get, the easier it is to take that punishment. Maybe because my time is getting shorter. It's still frustrating, but it doesn't make me angry.
A priest I know always says that we're fragile.
I thought he meant sinners because he doesn't like to use that word. I think I know what he means now...we're fragile, all of us. Easily disturbed or moved to some emotion or other.
I think God holds us steady so we don't feel negative emotion as much.
[Act 10:34-36 KJV]
34 Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
36 The word which [God] sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all
It is only through and by Jesus Christ alone, and not of us, that one can worketh righteousness and be accepted of Him; that is, for anyone to be able do that which is stated in v35, Christ must first be within them. Verse 34 says it exactly: that since God is NOT a respecter of persons, then whatsoever a person may do of themselves, has no bearing within His eyes. One cannot "worketh righteousness" nor do anything else until after becoming saved and born again
[Jhn 12:39-40 KJV]
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
RBDERRICK
Supporter
We must always have our faith according to Scripture.
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. (Matthew 11)
Therefore, Jesus' way is easy and light, especially when compared to the way of the world and the religions of man.
If we see it as hard, it is because of us, not because of Jesus' salvation and justification.
Good understanding giveth favour: but the way of transgressors is hard. (Prov 13)
What is hard is seeking to please God while sinning, it's not possible.
And so, we must first acknowledge sinning has no place in Christ Jesus, then we must learn why, where, and how sinning begins.
It's not by a sin nature, because there is no such thing created by Christ, neither in heaven nor in man, nor is it the mortal body's fault, but rather it comes from the same place it came from within Lucifer, who is the first one to sin against God: Lust for sin comes from within the heart, not from the flesh, but rather from the spirit of man desiring to sin with the flesh.
And so, the solution is of course simple: Purify the heart first, that the life in the flesh may be clean.
Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. (Isaiah 55)
Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. (Matthew 23)
For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ. (2 Cor 10)
The battle therefore is not with the flesh, but within the heart, to choose being pure in heart by bringing all thoughts into subjection to Christ, or to choose taking thought for unrighteousness within the heart, which will in due time be sinned with the flesh.
The fight against sin for righteousness is spiritual, not carnal, and so the fight is won or lost within the heart and the mind of man.
If we are double hearted in Romans 7, we will be in the hard way of sinning against Jesus with knowledge, but if we purify the heart to become single-eyed upon Jesus only, then we are delivered into Romans 8 and cannot sin with the flesh, since there is no lust from the spirit to do so.
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. (Rom 8)
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (1 John 3)
The only way of Jesus is the easy and simple way of having a pure heart and clean conscience of not sinning against Him, first within the heart, and so also with the body.
The ongoing work, fight, and race is within, not without.
Trying to resist sinning with the flesh by the will of the flesh is failure at the start.
We resist the devil within the heart and mind by the Spirit, because that is where he attacks, and is where he is defeated.
Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. (Eph 6)
He flees not just from us, but from us walking hand in hand with Jesus, How can the devil tempt any man to lust, who loves supping with Jesus in the kingdom of God within?
It's simple: purify the mind and guard the heart from taking thought for sinning, and so keep the body from doing so.
All it takes is the power and Spirit of Christ Jesus within us. to do so daily without fail.
Yep, that all it takes: the power of the Almighty God and Christ Jesus within.
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1)
People who are still taken into sin at the will of the devil, are not being overtaken by a sin nature of the flesh, there being no such thing, but are just not exercising the power of Christ to resist taking any such thought to do so.
The thoughts certainly come to mind, as the fowls of the air swooping down to rob Abraham of his sacrifice pieces, but Jesus commands us today to chase them all away and take no thought for them.
Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof. (Matthew 6)
The true secret to all this is simply caring only for the inward battle at hand, not for any imagined battle tomorrow, which may never even come.
When any Christian begins to fight the good fight within by the faith and power of Jesus Christ, he or she will then know where the fight is won, and knows it is as simple and easy as quenching the fiery darts at the door: DOA.
No man sins with the flesh, who did not want to from the heart. The mortal body is just mortal not sinful.
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How true.
Many erroneously use these 1 Cor 15 verses to confer some sinfulness to skin and bones...
- 1 Corinthians 15:50
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. - 1 Corinthians 15:53
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. - 1 Corinthians 15:54
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
You talk about following scripture but then where is love in your analysis.
Without love we are a clanging symbol, an empty vessel.
Purifying the mind, amen, following the Spirit, Amen.
"The true secret to all this is simply caring only for the inward battle at hand"
This sounds like a personal asceticism rather than a victorious walk in the power of the Holy Spirit.
Each persons walk is very personal, like each persons personality, emphasis varies so very much.
The battles I know are those with whom we speak daily, and our loving and valuing them. In a strange way this is internal and external. When Jesus says love our enemy, He could just as well say love ourselves. Often our enemies are the shadow of things we hate about ourselves, and our rejection of them is because of the lack of acceptance of our weaknesses and need.
So the ironic thing often is by reaching out and loving others, we end up loving ourselves. Sin distorts and changes our value systems so that smart car, or nice house, or powerful position are the thing we believe would bring us happiness, when really it is in knowing we are loved by God and sharing this with others. How can a smart car or nice house or powerful position match up against the King of Kings listens to our requests, and has built a place in eternity for us to reside.
Paul asked for his weaknesses to be taken away and the Lord said my grace is sufficient for you. Odd, but also perfect. The Lord desires that we see in all things we are intertwinned with Him, and He delights in us seeing the need and Jesus working though our prayers and love to others. If we could sail through everything, where would our empathy be, where would the lessons of dealing with hardship and praising despite the pain, bring out the glory of His blessing in Christ. What has more value, the poor woman giving all she has in the temple, or the rich man giving a small amount of what he has for all to see?
I used to think I could see anothers spirituality and how to correct them with theology or advice. Now I know I do not see another, just the Lords love and can let it flow to all. The Lord will feed His people and the rest will be blessed but ultimately fail. I am not here to judge or even know, just to love and share.
God bless you
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As we draw closer to the close, it becomes so much more obvious reputation and have a name among men means nothing. To be successful often means to be burnt out, heaped with money and not sure what to do next.
But to know that people have found Jesus and know love transforming them is heaven on earth.
I realised sometime ago of course people see things in a distorted way. Until they get closer to the truth, it is all misty and unclear. But calling people closer and to walk deeper, hearts are changed, love transforms, forgiveness and irritations disappear.
I am part of a house group, and I am seeing answered prayer, encouraged souls, enthusiastic sharing and the beginning of putting faith and praise into action. I have a friend who found the groups sensitivities a denial of the gospel and Jesus, and felt they had to leave because this was not the "church". What they did not see was this is the church, seeds planted but needing watering, and encouraging, and seeing God moving. Broken homes, hurt souls, empty promises, disappointed dreams, shyness and compromise over husbands and wives, mothers and fathers, sons and daughters. But things are moving, hearts are changing and the belief nothing is static, nothing Jesus cannot remake and reshape.
In truth if the gospel cannot speak to my house group it has no power or reality. If these mainly women are not met and find spiritual reality, what is the point of faith or salvation? Jesus's most stunning relationship was with Mary and Martha. The LGBT debate is not distant, these are confused children trying to find themselves. The gender identity discussion is husbands declaring they are women when socially it means almost nothing. Or pastors who dump their wives for another option, when that option turns out to be the same place they left. The world of what might be and what actually is is hard to face, but in Christ we need to go there with a loving heart to reach people.
So what do I face. A daughter who one close friend, though not mentally stable is now Danny not Daniel. A daughter of a friend declares themselves bisexual yet cannot cope with normal life and dropped out of university and lives in sheltered accommodation. A father who was controlling of the wife to a degree she could no longer make decisions and when she asked for a divorce he killed himself. They were in church eldership. A sister who was schizophrenic could not control their personal boundaries and a brother who was so heart broken at losing a sister had panic attacks and considered suicide constantly. A husband who lived in a codependent relationship when he lost his wife, has cut himself off from everyone and seems to weep everyday for his loss, but for no end, a wrecked shell hanging by a thread.
In Christ I do not carry this, I just see this is a real mess with no simple answers. But I can love these individuals and encourage them that each day Jesus can straighten paths and shine a light on the next step. Some maybe a broken house built on sand never to recover while others may gain faith and be built on a firm foundation. But if I walk in the light I cannot deny these things are there and I need to lovingly address them.
God bless you
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None should argue against works, James assured--Faith without works is dead. That tells me, those doing works build a strong living faith. So that when pressures come that faith stands strong, those not doing works faith will fold in a flash under pressures.
Many seem to believe that entrance into Gods kingdom is handed to them by a man telling them they are saved. It does not work that way. That man does not know and has no right telling others that. Jesus assures all--Matthew 7:21--Those living( now) to do Jesus Fathers will get to enter his kingdom( be saved) Jesus shared that will with all and summed it up in a single teaching--Man does not live by bread alone, but by every utterance from God= OT-NT, it takes years of study to learn every utterance, I seriously doubt taking in that knowledge ever ceases. Mortals are imperfect and can forget.
Like this example of me. I read through the bible a few x, then was taught Solomon fell to false God worship in the end of his life. I couldnt believe it and re read that account and for sure it occurred. I had forgotten even though reading that account a few x.
And since John 3:36 teaches--Those not obeying Jesus( every teaching) remain in Gods wrath. Best to learn and apply all he taught without fail. There is nothing more valuable in all creation than gaining entrance into Gods kingdom.
Those who become saved, are saved by God only through His mercy and grace -- in spite of themselves, not because of it.
Only those living now to do Jesus Fathers will get saved.( Matt 7:21) And must endure until their end doing that. Matt 24:13-- Only the righteous will be saved.( Psalm 37:29) And it is still by mercy and Grace. Gods view of what is wicked, differs from mans view--He gave all 2 lists of unacceptable sins at 1 Cor 6:9-11, And Galations 5:19-21--Paul mentions spiritism at Gal-The Greek word = Farmacia, thus drug addiction is apart of spiritism. So along with all the false god worship and those 2 lists=99% are not righteous in Gods view. Probably the reason, Jesus compared these last days to Noahs day(99.9% mislead) Luke 17:26--He as well teaches-FEW will find the road.