Why do some people feel they have the right to undo Salvation?

[JLB]

I asked: "Where are the verses that say that one can reject the gift of salvation, once given? There are none."

<sigh> I suppose the phrase "latter end is worse for them than the beginning" must mean loss of salvation or rejection of salvation once given.

<sigh> Well, it doesn't at all. And, if it did, it would CONTRADICT other Scriptures that plainly teach that salvation is secure, once obtained.

One would have to prove beyond a shadow of doubt that "latter end" specifically refers to eternity rather than end of one's life on earth. There are many verses that warn of loss, yet NONE of them specify salvation or eternal life.

The warning passages of God's hand of discipline forwards rebellious children indicates that those believers who later become rebellious, etc, are not going to get away with anything.


So, this warns of loss of salvation? No, it is just another failed attempt to pit Scripture against Scripture. Comparing apples to oranges.

We cannot ever compare the life of angels to the life of humans. They simply are NOT comparable.

2 Pet 2:4 isn't about "saved" angels who rebelled and lost their salvation.

I challenge anyone who holds to the view that salvation can be lost to prove that 2 Pet 2:4 is about saved angels who lost their salvation.

LOL!!!

Where do you get the term "saved Angels" from?

Angels are called "sons of God".



JLB

 

[JLB]

I asked: "Where are the verses that say that one can reject the gift of salvation, once given? There are none."

<sigh> I suppose the phrase "latter end is worse for them than the beginning" must mean loss of salvation or rejection of salvation once given.

<sigh> Well, it doesn't at all. And, if it did, it would CONTRADICT other Scriptures that plainly teach that salvation is secure, once obtained.

One would have to prove beyond a shadow of doubt that "latter end" specifically refers to eternity rather than end of one's life on earth. There are many verses that warn of loss, yet NONE of them specify salvation or eternal life.

The warning passages of God's hand of discipline forwards rebellious children indicates that those believers who later become rebellious, etc, are not going to get away with anything.


So, this warns of loss of salvation? No, it is just another failed attempt to pit Scripture against Scripture. Comparing apples to oranges.

We cannot ever compare the life of angels to the life of humans. They simply are NOT comparable.

2 Pet 2:4 isn't about "saved" angels who rebelled and lost their salvation.

I challenge anyone who holds to the view that salvation can be lost to prove that 2 Pet 2:4 is about saved angels who lost their salvation.

Where are the verses that say one can not reject their salvation?

Where are the verse that say one can not turn away from God, and go after other gods?

There is no such verse that says one can not lose their salvation.


JLB

 

[gr8grace3]

And again -

Peter warns us that even angels, who are sons of God, can be cast down to hell, because of disobedience.


4For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 2 Peter 2:4

JLB

1 Tim 5:12~~New American Standard Bible
I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality.

His chosen angels, can sin and go to hell?

 

[Deborah13]

1 Tim 5:12~~New American Standard Bible
I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality.

His chosen angels, can sin and go to hell?

Not 1 Tim 5:12 but 5:21

 

[th1b.taylor]

(Post removed. Response to a deleted post. Obadiah)

 

[gr8grace3]

Not 1 Tim 5:12 but 5:21

Thank you Deb!

 

[OzSpen]

If every use of "believe" were in the present tense, that would be a point in favor on the necessity of on-going faith in order to stay saved. But the Bible frequently uses the aorist tense as well, which ignores any continuation of the action. It's just a point in time action in the aorist tense. Such as Acts 16:31 and Paul's answer to the jailer.

Interestingly, Jesus used the aorist tense in Luke 8:12 in reference to the first soil; "lest they believe (aorist) and be saved". Yet, in the next verse, Jesus used the present tense for "believe" and followed that with "for a while". So even the use of "believe" in the present tense doesn't demand that such action will continue on into the future.

FreeGrace,

I note that you did not deal with the verse I presented, John 3:16 (ESV). This is called avoidance of the issue I raised.

 

[OzSpen]

The present tense does not always automatically convey continuous action. Why Isn't there a "qualifier" in John 3:16....

John 3:16~~ 'For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes(present tense) in him should not perish but have eternal life'.

Present tense action in the absence of qualifiers demands a singular action in the present moment without requiring that it be continuous throughout the present if we have the same idea expressed in the aorist tense.

gr8grace3,

On a popular level forum, I did not think it was appropriate to go into the technical details of the Greek present tense (I know Greek and have taught NT Greek). However, it seems that you want me to go into technical details. We could discuss the three regular uses of the Greek present tense:

• The progressive present
• The customary (gnomic) present, and
  
• The iterative present

The progressive present deals with a fact that has come to be in the past that continues with existing results. The gnomic present may indicate what habitually occurs or could be expected to occur. The iterative present describes what recurs at successive intervals (Dana & Mantey 1955:182-184).

There are special uses of the present tense that include: the aorist present (punctiliar action in present time; an event now occurring), the futuristic present, the historical present, the tendential present, the static present (Dana & Mantey 1955:184-196).

However, the progressive present seems reasonable for John 3:16 as it is nearest the root idea of the present tense: 'It signifies action in progress, or state in persistence, and may be represented by the graph (------------------)' (Dana & Mantey 1955:182).

Therefore the translation of John 3:16 (ESV) that I gave is consistent with the root idea of the present tense. The one who may have eternal life is the one who continues to believe.

The progressive present tense in the indicative mood in relation to present time may have three points of view:

1. It 'may be used in a sense of description, to indicate that which is now going on';
2. 'The present approaches its kindred tense, the perfect, when used to denote the continuation of existing results. Here it refers to a fact which has come to be in the past, but is emphasized as a present reality';
3. 'Retroactive in its application, denoting that which has begun in the past and continues into the present.... We may call it the present of duration' (Dana & Mantey 1955:182-183).

John 3:16 (ESV) seems to fit into points #2 & #3.

Works consulted
Dana, H E & Mantey, J R 1955. A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament. Toronto, Canada: The Macmillan Company.

 

[Mike S]

God is sovereign creator of the universe, creator of all there is in time and space. We know the God can be reasoned with (Abraham on Sodom) and can also chastise for our presumption to reason (Job.) He also tells us "My ways are not your ways." We know that God can create new covenant at will.

"For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." - Isaiah 55:9

How is it that some of us here can presume to know precisely what God can and cannot do, whom God can save and from whom He can withdraw salvation? Is your presumption of correctness that great that you would question God's sovereignty?

 

[JLB]

1 Tim 5:12~~New American Standard Bible
I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality.

His chosen angels, can sin and go to hell?

The same angels that are sons of God.

4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 2 Peter 2:4

and again

34 And Jesus answered and said to them, "The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage.
35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;
36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
Luke 20:34-36

Those who attain the resurrection from the dead, are equal to the angels as sons of God.


Sons of God were cast down to hell.

Simple as that.

Lucifer and the angels that were cast out of heaven were not created as evil, but were disobedient and were cast out and have become Satan and the fallen angels.




JLB

 

[gr8grace3]

gr8grace3,

On a popular level forum, I did not think it was appropriate to go into the technical details of the Greek present tense (I know Greek and have taught NT Greek). However, it seems that you want me to go into technical details. We could discuss the three regular uses of the Greek present tense:

• The progressive present
• The customary (gnomic) present, and
  
• The iterative present

The progressive present deals with a fact that has come to be in the past that continues with existing results. The gnomic present may indicate what habitually occurs or could be expected to occur. The iterative present describes what recurs at successive intervals (Dana & Mantey 1955:182-184).

There are special uses of the present tense that include: the aorist present (punctiliar action in present time; an event now occurring), the futuristic present, the historical present, the tendential present, the static present (Dana & Mantey 1955:184-196).

However, the progressive present seems reasonable for John 3:16 as it is nearest the root idea of the present tense: 'It signifies action in progress, or state in persistence, and may be represented by the graph (------------------)' (Dana & Mantey 1955:182).

Therefore the translation of John 3:16 (ESV) that I gave is consistent with the root idea of the present tense. The one who may have eternal life is the one who continues to believe.

The progressive present tense in the indicative mood in relation to present time may have three points of view:

1. It 'may be used in a sense of description, to indicate that which is now going on';
2. 'The present approaches its kindred tense, the perfect, when used to denote the continuation of existing results. Here it refers to a fact which has come to be in the past, but is emphasized as a present reality';
3. 'Retroactive in its application, denoting that which has begun in the past and continues into the present.... We may call it the present of duration' (Dana & Mantey 1955:182-183).

John 3:16 (ESV) seems to fit into points #2 & #3.

Works consulted
Dana, H E & Mantey, J R 1955. A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament. Toronto, Canada: The Macmillan Company.

I think it fits very nicely into #1 because it is actually a nominative participle.......a noun. pas ho pisteuon = whoever (is) the believer

pas 3956 mas adj nom s ------- *every one 15
o 3588 mas artl nom s ------- the 14
pisteuw 4100 pres act nom s mas-Ptc *believing 17

This is why I asked," Why isn't there a "qualifier" in John 3:16?"

If the present tense was attached to the verb and meant "continuous" belief we would have a qualifier and we would have a future tense of "WILL have eternal life."

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life."

["Syntax of New Testament Greek", Brooks & Winbery, 1979, University Press, Lanham, Md, pp. 144]:

*26th ed. Nestles, Allen Text, American Bible Society; New York
**Gramcord Institute, 2218 NE Brookview Dr,; Vancouver WA 98686

 

[OzSpen]

God is sovereign creator of the universe, creator of all there is in time and space. We know the God can be reasoned with (Abraham on Sodom) and can also chastise for our presumption to reason (Job.) He also tells us "My ways are not your ways." We know that God can create new covenant at will.

"For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." - Isaiah 55:9

How is it that some of us here can presume to know precisely what God can and cannot do, whom God can save and from whom He can withdraw salvation? Is your presumption of correctness that great that you would question God's sovereignty?

To whom are you addressing this post?

 

[OzSpen]

no place to write

 

[OzSpen]

I think it fits very nicely into #1 because it is actually a nominative participle.......a noun. pas ho pisteuon = whoever (is) the believer

pas 3956 mas adj nom s ------- *every one 15
o 3588 mas artl nom s ------- the 14
pisteuw 4100 pres act nom s mas-Ptc *believing 17

This is why I asked," Why isn't there a "qualifier" in John 3:16?"

If the present tense was attached to the verb and meant "continuous" belief we would have a qualifier and we would have a future tense of "WILL have eternal life."

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life."

["Syntax of New Testament Greek", Brooks & Winbery, 1979, University Press, Lanham, Md, pp. 144]:

*26th ed. Nestles, Allen Text, American Bible Society; New York
**Gramcord Institute, 2218 NE Brookview Dr,; Vancouver WA 98686

The participle is a verbal substantive. 'Have' in 'have eternal life' is subjunctive mood, present tense, so it means 'may continue to have' (eternal life). The subjunctive mood is the mood of doubtful assertion. Or, as Dana & Mantey put it, it 'is the mood of mild contingency; the mood of probability. While the indicative [mood] assumes reality, the subjunctive assumes unreality. It is the first step away from that which is actual in the direction of that which is only conceivable, and, therefore, properly leads the list of the potential moods' (Dana & Mantey 1955:170).

Oz

 

[dianegcook]

(Post removed. A&T Guidelines state "Subsequent opposing responses should include references to supportive scripture relevant to the thread and offer explanation for the contrary understanding." Obadiah.)

 

[gr8grace3]

How is it that some of us here can presume to know precisely what God can and cannot do, whom God can save and from whom He can withdraw salvation? Is your presumption of correctness that great that you would question God's sovereignty?

Yet we question His Justice and righteousness when we hold to the belief that He is arbitrarily sovereign in salvation or say He can withdraw His salvation or eternal life from us.

It is His justice and righteousness that is revealed to us in His salvation of man.

Rom 1:16-1716 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For in it(salvation) the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “BUT THE RIGHTEOUSmanSHALL LIVE BYFAITH.”

He would be unjust and unrighteous if He arbitrarily saved a man or took His eternal life away from a saved man.

psalm 9:8~~New American Standard Bible
And He will judge the world in righteousness; He will execute judgment for the peoples with equity.

Psalm 98:9~~New American Standard Bible
Before the LORD, for He is coming to judge the earth; He will judge the world with righteousness And the peoples with equity.

Psalm 96:10~~New American Standard Bible
Say among the nations, "The LORD reigns; Indeed, the world is firmly established, it will not be moved; He will judge the peoples with equity."

In His Perfect sovereignty He chose to judge out of His perfect righteousness and perfect justice.

Do you think that salvation is supposed to be a mystery to us? We can't really know and witness the truth about salvation?

 

[OzSpen]

(Post removed. Response to removed post. Obadiah)

 

[OzSpen]

Yet we question His Justice and righteousness when we hold to the belief that He is arbitrarily sovereign in salvation or say He can withdraw His salvation or eternal life from us.

It is His justice and righteousness that is revealed to us in His salvation of man.

What is 'His justice and righteousness' when he only makes salvation available to some people and excludes the rest of humanity? Could it be that God does not withdraw his salvation or eternal life from us, but that human beings choose to commit apostasy and lose eternal life? Those questions won't fit too well with some views of salvation.

 

[dianegcook]

(Post removed, ToS2.14. Obadiah.)

 

[gr8grace3]

What is 'His justice and righteousness' when he only makes salvation available to some people and excludes the rest of humanity?

Less than perfect.

Could it be that God does not withdraw his salvation or eternal life from us, but that human beings choose to commit apostasy and lose eternal life? Those questions won't fit too well with some views of salvation.

Because it is HIS life and He is the giver of eternal life, He would have to withdraw it at some point if it were possible.

Making His justice and righteousness less than perfect and a liar.

Rom 6:23~~New American Standard Bible
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Rom 11:29~~New American Standard Bible
for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.