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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Why do some people feel they have the right to undo Salvation?
- Thread starter Lady Terra
- Start date
I said: "I challenge anyone who holds to the view that salvation can be lost to prove that 2 Pet 2:4 is about saved angels who lost their salvation."
Please add some explanation with a quoted verse. Otherwise, I have no idea how the verse answers my question or challenge. Heb 10 :29 does not answer my challenge.
Again, this doesn't answer my challenge.
Just to be clear for some, there are several Greek words for "gift". But in both Rom 6;23 and 11:29, Paul used the exact same word, which is "charisma".
That comes with your presupposition that eternal life cannot be lost and that there is no human choice in saying, 'Yes', to the offer of salvation. I recommend to you a read of Norman Geisler's book, Chosen but Free (this only gives a brief sample).
What are you meaning to convey by, 'Less than perfect' regarding God's justice?
dianegcook
Member
(Post removed, ToS2.14. Obadiah.)
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I have read that book.
If God didn't "let" some people believe and He "let" others believe. His Justice would be less than perfect.
If he "caused" some to believe and didn't "cause" others to believe. His justice would be less than perfect......the Calvinist argument.
I haven't really made up my mind yet on if it is the Arminian that is more dangerous with their loss of salvation doctrine or the Calvinist with their "sovereignty" in salvation doctrine.
But I do know that perseverance of the saints and loss of salvation are closely tied. They both are works orientated, one just says you can lose your salvation and the other says you lost the salvation you thought you had. They say the same thing, just different words.
Lady Terra
Member
Thank you for all that has posted, I feel there is a counter reaction going on in the "So called Church of Believers", It is my concern that people are being shut out from serving God due to:
Matthew 7:13-14
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
vs.
Galatians 1:6-7
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Matthew 7:13-14
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
vs.
Galatians 1:6-7
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
To gain an Arminian perspective, why don't you read some of the articles on the Society of Evangelical Arminians website?
There is an excellent book by an evangelical Arminian who is a professor at one of the Southern Baptist Seminaries, Roger E Olson, Arminian Theology: Myths and Realities (InterVarsity Press 2006) in which he examines some of the areas where Arminians have been misunderstood. For example, you'll learn from his exposition that Arminians believe in Total Depravity and Perseverance of the Saints. Yep, you read me correctly. I found it to be an excellent read and contained an excellent summary of Arminian beliefs.
May you enjoy some good reading.
I'm surprised that an Arminian would be teaching at a Baptist Seminary. I've never heard of a Baptist who believed that salvation could be lost. And certainly not all Baptists are reformed.
Where do you find the phrase "saved angels" in the Bible?
Angels are referred to as sons of God.
Angels who were disobedient were cast down to hell, during the days of Noah.
Lucifer [Satan] and his angels were also removed from heaven and will end up in the fires of hell.
People who are found to inherit the kingdom of God, and to be partakers of the Resurrection of the dead, have gained the position of being equal to the angels, as sons of God.
Peter warns us that even the angels were cast down to hell who were disobedient in the days of Noah.
For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly; and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked
(for that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented his righteous soul from day to day by seeing and hearing their lawless deeds)--
then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment,
and especially those who walk according to the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise authority. 2 Peter 2:4-9
...especially those who walk according to the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise authority.
Compare to -
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
...just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Paul warns Christians, just as Peter does, that those who practice the lustful cravings of the sinful flesh, will not inherit the kingdom.
These angels, sons of God, where involved in sexual immorality, just as those in Sodom and Gomorrah.
God did not spare the angels, nor will He spare those Christians who trample on the Blood of Jesus and insult the Spirit of Grace and never repent.
That's the warning from Peter, and that's the warning from Paul.
5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
7 Therefore do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 5:5-7
and again -
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." Revelation 21:8
JLB
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Mike S
Member
Yeah, if one studies these religions enough, and goes far enough to draw the logical conclusion on them. They have more in common than differences.
Ecc 1:9~~New American Standard Bible
That which has been is that which will be, And that which has been done is that which will be done. So there is nothing new under the sun.
Eph 2:8 is arguably the most forceful verse in the bible that teaches we are secure in Christ.
New American Standard Bible
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
This phrase,"have been saved", is Paul grabbing you by your shirt collar, lifting you off the ground and putting his nose right to yours and yelling," YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED AND ARE SAVED!!!"
In the Greek, it is called a periphrastic perfect tense. One of the most forceful ways to express your idea in the Greek. Paul carries over the idea(periphrasis) from the Attic Greek with the use of 2 verbal forms in this one statement because he can't get the whole idea expressed from one verbal form.
~~~~~~
The Expanded Translation reads: “By the grace have you been saved completely with the result that you are in a state of salvation which persists through present time.” Present time in this instance is always the time at which the reader reads his statement. The security of the believer could not have been expressed in stronger terms. (Wuest, Kenneth - The Practical Use of the Greek New Testament - Part II: The Eloquence of Greek Tenses and Moods)
Deborah13
Member
When it comes to judging a professing Christian's salvation, imo, one are walking on really thin ice. They are presuming to know things that God is the only one privy to. Sometimes people themselves are not sure and God is getting them sorted out and we should but out, unless we are absolutely sure God instructs us to speak.
BUT.........ινα introduces a purpose clause. And the indicative mood can't be used in a purpose clause.
hina: in order that, that, so that
Original Word: ἵνα
Part of Speech: Conjunction
Transliteration: hina
Phonetic Spelling: (hin'-ah)
Short Definition: in order that, so that
Definition: in order that, so that.
It is stating the purpose of God sending His Son. Not the fact of maybe we will have eternal life or maybe we won't.
The Father gave His Son, and the purpose was so that those who believe in Him will most certainly not perish and most certainly will have eternal life. It is not telling us "what is" on some condition, but rather it is stating the PURPOSE of something.Namely, why God sent His Son and the Purpose He sent Him to the Cross.
The subjunctive mood points to the purpose of God sending His Son. Not to the probability of us believing or having eternal life.
I said: "I challenge anyone who holds to the view that salvation can be lost to prove that 2 Pet 2:4 is about saved angels who lost their salvation."
Correct.
Still, not any verse about loss of salvation. My challenge has not been met. Again.
I never said anything about saved angels in the Bible..
So were the fallen angels of Gen 6.
Yep.
[
Correct.
Actually, saved humans will judge the angels. 1 Cor 6:3
Yep.
And none of this is relevant to the issue at hand.
And this has already been thoroughly explained. To "inherit" the kingdom is not the same as to "enter" the kingdom.
Correct. Which has nothing to do with loss of salvation. It is totally about loss of eternal reward and blessings.
This is the fallacy of trying to compare apples to oranges.
Another verse about loss of reward and inheritance IN the kingdom.
The key here is unbelieving. Referring to those who never believed. Those who have never believed will certainly be cast into the lake of fire.
Still, not any verse about loss of salvation. My challenge has not been met. Again.
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Mike S
Member
It doesn't matter what the Bible says. God is sovereign over all the universe. God revealed the Bible, God can change anything in the Bible. We cannot presume to know what God can and can't do.