Women are to be silent when the Church assembles!

[reba]

Government authorities around me and the federal government with respect to various things like taxes and otherwise, university authorities at the university I frequent, gym authorities at the gym I go to a lot, church authorities, even my friends in that I general submit to their wishes about various things.

church authorities, I just plain ol did not see those 2 words... So it was i that did not see

I am not asking anything of your privet life, Burger King or your gym.... Burger king is better then McDonalds.

 

[carlos123]

I am not asking anything of your privet life, Burger King or your gym.... Burger king is better then McDonalds.

At last! Praise God in heaven! We agree on something (well...I am sure we agree on a whole lot of things Reba beside women being silent of course).

I heartedly agree that Burger King is better than McDonald's! From what I remember of it at least. It's been years since I was in one as, alas, there are none around me within easy reach.

Carlos

 

[JoReba]

Men ....way to many think the way to fix something is to fix anything other then themselves...


Those are some big shoes for you to even think about trying on....I suggest you be careful.

Women ... way too many think their intuition means something worth talking about. Jesus never acceded to hypersensitive notions of any woman. He never asked women for any advice or for their help figuring things out. I suggest you operate within the guidelines of Scripture for women.

Show us how to receive advice as well as you give it out. Okay? Thanks. I thank God for you.

 

[handy]

Women ... way too many think their intuition means something worth talking about. Jesus never acceded to hypersensitive notions of any woman. He never asked women for any advice or for their help figuring things out. I suggest you operate within the guidelines of Scripture for women.

Show us how to receive advice as well as you give it out. Okay? Thanks. I thank God for you.

Jesus never acceded to any notion of any man or asked advice of any man either.

The guidelines for women in Scripture are to be lovers of God, helpmeets to our husbands, under authority in our churches, teachers of the young and other women and we can even lovingly correct men using the Scriptures when they are not understanding things.

I think all who know Reba will agree she is a shining example of all these things.

 

[handy]

Show us how to receive advice as well as you give it out. Okay?

This was specifically asked of Reba, but I'll go ahead and jump in here...

The way for any Christian, man or woman, old or young, to receive advice is to simply remember this:

Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves; 4 do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others. 5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Philippians 2

Combined with this:

Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so. Acts 17:11

We should all receive advice humbly, but to take that advice to the Scriptures to see if it lines up.

The general thrust of this thread has been that we women are to take one text in 1 Corinthians 14 and apply it the way certain men think we should... I think most of us women here have prayerfully examined these verses and examined them within the light of what the Scriptures say regarding women. If we come to understand 1 Corinthians 14:34 in a way that doesn't line up with what some men, by no means all men, believe about this verse... well then, we are in no more nor no less disagreement with some men as any man is with any other man in the Body regarding all kinds of things of our faith... from can one lose salvation to should one celebrate Easter.

But, I've never yet seen Reba, nor any other woman at this forum push their ... what were the phrases used..."intuition" or "hypersensitive notions" as reasons to do anything. Certainly none of the women who have participated in this particular thread have done so.

Reba, Tina, theLords and most of the other women of this forum are solid, Bible believing Christian women who most certainly humble themselves before the Lord in their lives and base how they live their lives according to the Scriptures not on intuition or hypersensitive notions.

Be careful how you judge others.

 

[Pard]

Man, if all the ladies stay silent for the entire church session than the singing is gonna be awful :toofunny

That being said, isn't the pastor the only one who talks for the entire time? Because that's how it is for me...

 

[handy]

Man, if all the ladies stay silent for the entire church session than the singing is gonna be awful :toofunny

That being said, isn't the pastor the only one who talks for the entire time? Because that's how it is for me...

That being said, isn't the pastor the only one who talks for the entire time? Because that's how it is for me...
Jethro Bodine is going to have a lot to say on this one, Pard!!!!!


However, you bring up a point that...while I know it was brought up before (really just about anything that can be said on this subject has been said over and over now) it remains one of the weakest links in the argument for total silence of women in the assemblies...the fact that we should be singing out our praises in song.

Either silence is total complete silence (meaning no singing) or silence is something else. If it is something else, then we are "interpreting" what that "something else" is. Some have interpreted it as being silent in everything but song (however there is really no biblical basis for this...it's simply presented as the "right" interpretation.) Others have looked at how the Bible presents women working within the Body and have looked at the original languages and have come up with this being much more a recognition of male authority within the Body and an stricture not to chatter...

 

[tessiewebb]

Man, if all the ladies stay silent for the entire church session than the singing is gonna be awful :toofunny

That being said, isn't the pastor the only one who talks for the entire time? Because that's how it is for me...

Thank you for bringing a bit of levity to this thread, Pard. Though this thread isn't really about your second sentence I'd like to point out that the same Paul who wrote the verses about women's head covering, submission and so forth also wrote that each one has a psalm, a hymn, and if one nearby has a prophecy the first speaker should be silent and let the second speak. I don't have the verses memorized so I am giving them as I recall them. I'm sure you recognize what I am paraphrasing. The lone ranger pastor days are rapidly coming to an end, I believe, and the church services will have a new look (for most of us) and a more Biblical one.

 

[carlos123]

The general thrust of this thread has been that we women are to take one text in 1 Corinthians 14 and apply it the way certain men think we should...

This has absolutely not one thing to do with how men want women to apply ONE verse. That's ridiculous Handy.

This has nothing to do with men on one side and women on the other or vice versa. This has everything to do with what the Word says in the plain meaning of the words used.

And I should add it is not just ONE verse as you suggest. It ties into the whole thrust of submission and Paul spoke of the same sort of thing in 1 Timothy 2:11.

I don't know if you read my earlier post where I quoted various church fathers on this issue Handy but it is my understanding that throughout church history until very recently...what Paul said was understood to be exactly what he said.

Women...silent...in church assembly.

You make it out to be an issue between men and women which it is not. It's an issue between individuals and God. Between those willing to take what the Word says at face value and those that don't.

It really is that simple.

Carlos

 

[carlos123]

I am going to bow out of this thread you all.

It has become crystal clear to me that many of you who have participated on this thread are going to believe what you believe no matter what.

Not one of you has been able to biblically refute what I have said. Not one.

Lot's of ideas have been brought up and I responded to any and every idea to shoot down those that did not hold any water.

It's all about me wanting to lord it over women! Baloney.

It's about disruptive women in Corinth! Baloney. Paul's instructions were given to get the Corinthians to line up with established church practice throughout the New Testament (you'll have to search and see my post on that).

It's only for Corinth! Baloney. There is no indication whatever that Paul's instructions were ONLY for Corinth and I showed very clearly why they weren't.

On and on it goes in never ending cycle of my saying something, no one being able to refute it, and then up comes something said earlier in the thread which has already been responded to and shown to be irrelevant, an assumption, or otherwise.

The fact of the matter is that many on this thread do NOT love God! They are not surrendered to Him as Master of their lives. They do not trust Him or His Word...no matter what it's implications. And they simply do not have eyes to see what is written right under their noses.

I leave you to God. May He deal with you as seems fitting to Him.

Thanks for interacting with me on this thread.

Carlos

PS. I am unsubscribing from the thread so I won't even see anything further said on the thread.

 

[handy]

I think I'd like to include my whole thought that was partially quoted above:

The general thrust of this thread has been that we women are to take one text in 1 Corinthians 14 and apply it the way certain men think we should... I think most of us women here have prayerfully examined these verses and examined them within the light of what the Scriptures say regarding women. If we come to understand 1 Corinthians 14:34 in a way that doesn't line up with what some men, by no means all men, believe about this verse... well then, we are in no more nor no less disagreement with some men as any man is with any other man in the Body regarding all kinds of things of our faith... from can one lose salvation to should one celebrate Easter.

And, that has indeed been the general thrust of this thread... as a matter of fact, it's the very title of the thread: Women are to be silent when the church assembles.

What I've seen in the course of this thread is an idea put forth... not a new idea by any means, that women aren't to speak during Christian assemblies and 1 Corinthians 14, 1 Timothy 2 and other texts have been pulled in to support that view.

I've also seem some very good exegesis on the part of others who disagree that Paul meant that women are never to say anything when the church assembles. These others have done a very good job at supporting their own point of view with Scripture as well.

In the end, I think this thread has done a fair job in presenting the various views on the subject. It certainly presents enough Scripture and exegesis of Scripture that folks should, prayerfully under the Spirit, come to their own conclusions about it.

Carlos has said that he won't be "seeing" this thread anymore, but if he sees this I hope he'll understand that I respect his point of view, and I certainly think that he has come to this point of view with much study and a desire to know the truth... but I tend to agree with others, not just those who've put forth views on this thread but the many pastors and scholars I've read on this very subject. I've put a lot of time in on this particular topic... not just on this thread, but for a number of years, because being a woman, I do want to honor God in what He desires. That I am not convinced by Carlos' (or any other's) presentations here isn't because I do not love God, or do not view Him as Master of my life. And, it's certainly not because I do not trust God or His word, which I've devoted my life to for well over 30 years now.

It's just because I think that Carlos (as well as many others) have a point of view that doesn't line up with the whole of what God's word has to say regarding how women and their gifts are to edify the Church.

That really is all.

 

[Justice]

I think I'd like to include my whole thought that was partially quoted above:

And, that has indeed been the general thrust of this thread... as a matter of fact, it's the very title of the thread: Women are to be silent when the church assembles.

What I've seen in the course of this thread is an idea put forth... not a new idea by any means, that women aren't to speak during Christian assemblies and 1 Corinthians 14, 1 Timothy 2 and other texts have been pulled in to support that view.

I've also seem some very good exegesis on the part of others who disagree that Paul meant that women are never to say anything when the church assembles. These others have done a very good job at supporting their own point of view with Scripture as well.

In the end, I think this thread has done a fair job in presenting the various views on the subject. It certainly presents enough Scripture and exegesis of Scripture that folks should, prayerfully under the Spirit, come to their own conclusions about it.

Carlos has said that he won't be "seeing" this thread anymore, but if he sees this I hope he'll understand that I respect his point of view, and I certainly think that he has come to this point of view with much study and a desire to know the truth... but I tend to agree with others, not just those who've put forth views on this thread but the many pastors and scholars I've read on this very subject. I've put a lot of time in on this particular topic... not just on this thread, but for a number of years, because being a woman, I do want to honor God in what He desires. That I am not convinced by Carlos' (or any other's) presentations here isn't because I do not love God, or do not view Him as Master of my life. And, it's certainly not because I do not trust God or His word, which I've devoted my life to for well over 30 years now.

It's just because I think that Carlos (as well as many others) have a point of view that doesn't line up with the whole of what God's word has to say regarding how women and their gifts are to edify the Church.

That really is all.

I agree Dora,

Feminism got thrown into this topic. The only ism that I’m concern with is spiritualism. I don't have any problems with authority or the headship. My husband is a minister/pastor. We have three girls and our only son is a preacher. One of my brothers, three brother-in-laws and my father-in-law are also preachers. God had me prophesy the calling to three of them. It's not about preaching for me because God has me well "covered" in that area.

To know that God will pour out his spirit on his sons and daughters to prophesy but to say that power is only for the sons to use in Church, is a path I would not want to travel. Any belief that advocates putting up road blocks in front of the Holy Spirit and the power of the spiritual gifts should be a fearful thing.

1 Corinthians 14:31: For ye may ALL prophesy one by one, that ALL may learn, and ALL may be comforted. Paul is talking about prophesy in the Church. ALL may prophesy, ALL may learn, and ALL may be comforted. To say that women can not exercise the spiritual gifts to edify the Church is wrong. How can I or any spiritual women back away from the power of God when we witness his many miracles? For instance ---

Our niece Tab posted on FB --- GOOD NEWS!! Dr. says moms cancer is stable and not grown or spread, her cancer Dr. said he couldnt believe this. God is wonderful isn't he?!!!!

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000410015646

Praise The Lord!!!

This and other miracles have been happening in our Church. Now why would our small Church (spirit filled men and women) want to change?

Carlos mentioned "Western Churches" which raised red flags. I thought what's next a burka?

No man should blame women for not seeing more spiritually. We can't change what Eve did and all Adam had to do was say no. Imagine that outcome; Maybe a puppy for companionship ;)

 

[Stormcrow]

It's an issue between individuals and God. Between those willing to take what the Word says at face value and those that don't.

Nonsense. It's a cultural issue and needs to be seen in that light. Paul also wrote this:

Slaves, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your heart, as to Christ; Ephesians 6:5 (NASB)

Slaves, in all things obey those who are your masters on earth, not with external service, as those who merely please men, but with sincerity of heart, fearing the Lord. Colossians 3:22 (NASB)


Masters, grant to your slaves justice and fairness, knowing that you too have a Master in heaven. Colossians 4:1 (NASB)


So tell me, are you treating your slaves well, Carlos??? What?!?!?! You mean slavery isn't legal anymore in America???

Well then, I guess there's no reason to apply Paul's words as they relate to a culture of slavery then, is it? 2

 

[theLords]

As a moderator, tasked with protecting the flock, in this small little hub on the web, I'd like to take a moment to make a few statements.

I have read this entire thread, each and every single post, and although Carlos will not be viewing this post, I am not writing this for the sake of Carlos, but for the sake of my brothers and sisters who seek sincere fellowship here at CF.net.

I am not going to argue for or against the silence of women in churches, nor will I be sharing which stance (yay or nay) that I hold, but I would like to analyze the spirit that the OP is operating out of so that it may be beneficial in helping any 'weaker' in the faith Christians.

The fact of the matter is that many on this thread do NOT love God! They are not surrendered to Him as Master of their lives. They do not trust Him or His Word...no matter what it's implications. And they simply do not have eyes to see what is written right under their noses.

This is not the heart of God, folks, and this is not the Holy Spirit talking. I, caution you, brethren, to be very weary of anyone who uses such ugly manipulation to cause you to submit to a certain Biblical doctrine.

This re-worded states: Since you do not believe my interpretation of the Bible, then you do not love God, you do not have Him as Master, nor do you trust Him or His Word.

This is an undermining of one's love for God. I can stand with the witness of the Holy Spirit before me and say, that those accused of not loving God, love Him deeply. The intention of these words is to cause insecurity within the heart of a sincere believer. "You mean since I don't believe X doctrine, then I don't love God? Then I need to believe X doctrine to prove that I do love God!" In fact, the false spirit behind these words recognizes the deep love many in this thread have for God, and is trying to use that love, to manipulate belief towards a certain direction. The Spirit of God does not manipulate so neither should anyone born to Him and in Him, and this is how we know that this particular discussion in this particular thread was not birthed from the heart of God. Because the fruit of this thread would have been good, whether it ended in choosing stance A or B, or C: agreeing to disagree. Instead, this thread ended in cruel judgment, and unrighteous judgment is not a fruit of God.

The Bible tells us:
1 Kings 8:39 (NIV)
then hear from heaven, your dwelling place. Forgive and act; deal with everyone according to all they do, since you know their hearts (for you alone know every human heart),

The OP is operating out of a false spirit, a spirit who claims to be God Almighty, by judging the hearts of Christian brothers or sisters as those who are not surrendered to God, and this spirit goes so far as to callously claim that they don't even love God.

I, extol you, brethren--Be incredibly weary of those who operate out of this heart, and the message that they bring.

Is the message that "women are to be silent in the assemblies" a sinful one? I do not make that claim or statement. But, a heart that says, "I judge you as one who doesn't love God because you do not believe the way I believe" is a heart not operating with the blessing of God, nor operating out of the Spirit of God. Not because of the message they bring, but because of the sinful heart that motivates the preaching of that message. A good parallel example is the poster, Webb, who believes that women are not to speak in the assemblies. At no point in this thread, has this poster judged anyone taking the opposing stance as Christians not serving the Lord God, or who do not love Him. I hope this makes clear the difference between the message that one can bring forward, and the spirit one operates out of when bringing or giving the message. The best thing to do, when the foundation is corrupted (i.e. - the messenger is not operating out of the Spirit of God when they bring a message) is to simply throw out everything and start fresh and clean, seeking for God's truth for the sake of His glory.

Once again, I make it clear that I do not argue for or against any theological doctrine discussed in this thread.

I am simply speaking about the heart that the message is coming from, the importance is not on the doctrine or belief in the doctrine, the importance is on the condition of the heart that the message is coming from.

If a heart sits in unrighteous judgment, having usurped the Judgment Seat of God, then how can that heart operate out of the sinless and perfect Righteous Judge--the Holy Spirit?

In conclusion, CF.net brethren, be careful and guard your hearts. For not everyone who preaches in the Name of our Lord, is operating out of the Spirit of our Lord. Please understand that this is not a condemnation of Carlos123. He claims to be a Holy Spirit filled born-again believer, and I accept his testimony, but no Christian is perfect. We must daily choose to operate out of the Holy Spirit and when we sin we are not operating out of the Spirit of God. I do not claim that Carlos123 is in sin, that is for God to judge, but I do make the claim Carlos123 is not speaking from the center of the heart of God in this thread. This is true not because of the message he brings (that women are to be silent), but because he has shown that the driving force behind his message is one that condemns and accuses the love others have for God.

In reference to the theology of whether women are to be silent in the assembly, I encourage you all to seek the Holy Spirit of God in this matter. Allow him to mold you into the image of His Son and bring you peace on this issue in whichever stance He leads you to take. And, do not condemn those who the Holy Spirit leads in another direction.

With this said, I am going to recommend this thread be closed. If anyone seeks further clarification please PM. Lastly, with the power of God living within me, I bless every single member who posted in this thread, and bless Carlos123, all in the Name of the Holy of Holies, Jesus Christ the Lord, Son of the Living God. Amen.

 

[Nick]

And with that said, thread over.