Women are to be silent when the Church assembles!

[carlos123]

Carlos,

I see pretty much what Tina sees in your postings... Might not be what is in head and heart, sure hope not! Could be your verbiage could use some adjustment.

If it is us women you wish to educate you might consider our points.

Thanks for the input Reba. I will try and be more careful in how I word things.

Carlos

 

[reba]

2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2Ti 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
2Ti 3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
2Ti 3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

I have always thought of these verses in regards to false 'godly' men using the scriptures. We can all list a bunch of TV preachers who seemingly fit the description. I personally know of a couple church leaders who have used their position to seduce silly women.

Many of us have learned to keep our guard up and with good reason.. When a guy who i have zero background on comes around talking submission (not so much here but where there can be physical contact) the red flags start flying.

 

[carlos123]

Many of us have learned to keep our guard up and with good reason.. When a guy who i have zero background on comes around talking submission (not so much here but where there can be physical contact) the red flags start flying.

And well they should! But if I may suggest...love is risky.

I mean in the sense that many men and women have been hurt in opening themselves up to love.

But does that mean that we (both men and women) should not be willing to become vulnerable and open ourselves up to being loved by God through others again? Or only do so with great caution and hesitantcy?

I believe God wants us to be so confident in His ultimate love that while being cautious we should as readily embrace all that He might have for us as the day we first fell in love with Him.

He ultimately holds all the cards and He loves us. Nothing any man may do to a woman or man for that matter can keep His love from us or separate us from Him.

If submission is of God, and it is, then any woman who has been hurt and hurt badly by an authoritarian man should learn from that experience respecting how a man should not be but should nevertheless embrace submission as God's continuing best for her well being.

Carlos

 

[reba]

There is nothing risky in loving God nor His love to me.

When Christian men want to see christian women in submission the best teacher is men who are under/in proper submission.

1Pe 5:5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.
1Pe 5:6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:

 

[WIP]

When Christian men want to see christian women in submission the best teacher is men who are under/in proper submission.

I think there's a good point made here. How often do we men speak about how women are to be submissive (to men) but neglect how WE are also to be submissive (to Christ).

 

[tessiewebb]

I think there's a good point made here. How often do we men speak about how women are to be submissive (to men) but neglect how WE are also to be submissive (to Christ).

And each other.

 

[tessiewebb]

There is nothing risky in loving God nor His love to me.

When Christian men want to see christian women in submission the best teacher is men who are under/in proper submission.

1Pe 5:5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.
1Pe 5:6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:

Good post, reba, thanks!

 

[carlos123]

There is nothing risky in loving God nor His love to me.

Nor for me either. I should have phrased that differently I think.

I meant in the sense that in human relationships when we are hurt by a loved one, deeply, there is a tendency to not open up to love again (depending on the severity of the hurt).

Carlos

 

[reba]

A Freudian slip? Is this thread about women and mens relationships or or is it about the relationship of women and God?

 

[tessiewebb]

Hi TessieWebb,
I can't help but notice that you have refused to correct me as to what I supposedly misunderstood in your previous posting which is fine but that instead you have now resorted to talking about me albeit indirectly. Which is also fine. I have no problem with you doing that.

But since you brought up some valid questions pertaining to possible bad motives on my part, a fair subject to question me on, I would like to say something about my motives.

And since you so readily talk of men and their motives as being bad may I point out that women have a tendency to assume bad motives on the part of men who bring this subject up. Neither men or women should have bad motives in bringing this or any other subject up and none of us should go around assuming anything about any of the other of us.

The Bible says that assumption leads to nothing but strife. The best thing to do is to ask not assume.

Why did I bring this topic up? Why did I not just start a thread on how great prayer is, or how loving God is, or how the Body works together, or any other wonderful and less "controversial" subject?

In short...because women being silent stuck out to me in my reading as being one of a number of things that the church of today falls woefully short of applying.

The focus of my heart for quite some time, in the Presence of God, has been the state of the Western church and how it is not doing so many things it ought to be doing.

And I do not mean from the standpoint of my having a critical spirit, being judgmental in a way God would not be please with, and otherwise.

Paul himself was inspired to correct the Corinthians for the greater glory and honor of God.

In a similar way (though of course not entirely as I am not inspired as he was) I was led to bring this subject up on this and a few other forums as a way to get Christians in the Body to begin talking about some of the practices that God Himself would have us start applying.

This is not the only topic I am presently discussing with others. It just happens to be the only one I ended up discussing here on this forum. But it is by no means the only subject on my heart for the well being of the Church.

You and I may disagree on what Paul said but don't assume bad motives on my part unless you know for sure that I have such.

There is really no reason other than a desire for the well being of the Church and the greater honor and glory of the Lord within it for me to be bringing this up.

I mean why would I apart from that?

I don't get any brownie points for bringing up this subject. Usually I end up being ridiculed, called who knows what, insulted, misunderstood, people assume the worst about my motives, and what have you.

I have better things to do in life than to sit on forums and endure all that other than for the fact that I believe the Lord wants to use me to highlight some of these things that need changing and to interact with Christians who are willing to discuss them.

The judgment is still out on whether my discussions are doing any good. No one that I know of so far has changed their mind about anything I have discussed anywhere (that I can recall). But it has taught me a HUGE amount about how to deal with objections. How not to communicate things on my part (I made some mistakes on this thread...I have since started discussions on this elsewhere where I am interacting with others in a much better spirit than I have tended to do here I think). I am learning.

And I have had a chance through these types of discussions on forums to find a few wonderful Christians with whom I am in email communication. That has been one of the greatest blessings for me in starting these types of discussion (just got another email from one in fact).

If you ever have any questions about where I am coming from in all this that are not answered in this post...just ask.

Carlos

Might want to ask yourself where the opinions expressed in those statements originate on your part. For instance, "You and I may disagree on what Paul said but don't assume bad motives on my part unless you know for sure that I have such." You have heard of discernment, have you not? That's seeing/knowing something about another by means of hearing, or seeing in this case, what they say.

You stated in this quoted post, "The Bible says that assumption leads to nothing but strife." Where is the chapter and verse for that, please?

Now, down to the subject at hand: I'd like to have you read a few verses and answer some questions on them.

They are: Romans 16:3-5, 6, 7, 12
All of these verses contain women’s names who Paul greeted. In 3-5 he says of the two women named in verse 3 as being “fellow workersâ€. In verse 6, he greets Mary, who “labored much for†them. In Junia, verse 7, he had a “fellow prisoner†who was “of note among the apostlesâ€. In verse 12, he commends 3 women who “labored much in the Lordâ€.
Let me ask you, Carlos: 1) What sort of labor do you think these women in verses 3, 6 and 12 did for which he commended them? 2) What do you think Junia had done, verse 7, which made her “of note among the apostles�

 

[reba]

Men ....way to many think the way to fix something is to fix anything other then themselves...

In a similar way (though of course not entirely as I am not inspired as he was) I was led to bring this subject up on this and a few other forums as a way to get Christians in the Body to begin talking about some of the practices that God Himself would have us start applying.

Those are some big shoes for you to even think about trying on....I suggest you be careful.

 

[WIP]

And each other.

Agreed.

 

[carlos123]

A Freudian slip? Is this thread about women and mens relationships or or is it about the relationship of women and God?

Women and God Reba. Of course.

What I brought up, and please disregard my point if it still unclear and we'll chalk it up to Carlos's meandering thoughts, was in relation to saying that just as we must be open to receiving love from others even when we have been vulnerable in the past and been badly hurt so too, being abused by men who are overbearing should not keep us from walking in submission (for ladies I mean).

But again if this is becoming another point of contention here...please ignore my post and chalk it up to my bad.

Thanks.

Carlos

 

[carlos123]

Those are some big shoes for you to even think about trying on....I suggest you be careful.

Thank God that I am a new creature in Christ. Created to be like Jesus, I am loved as much as Jesus was, the Father is with me as much as He was with Jesus, and I am able in the power of the Spirit to speak into the things Jesus would have spoken into had He continued living on this Earth.

Just like any one of us as Christians can do.

Any one of us can speak into the needs of the church at large if the Word points to such a need.

The problem with most Christians in my personal opinion is that they do not see themselves as adequate enough in Christ to do that.

Carlos

 

[reba]

Have you not read the scriptures on christians being in submission to one another.

I posted 1Pe 5:5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.
1Pe 5:6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:

What I brought up, and please disregard my point if it still unclear and we'll chalk it up to Carlos's meandering thoughts, was in relation to saying that just as we must be open to receiving love from others even when we have been vulnerable in the past and been badly hurt so too, being abused by men who are overbearing should not keep us from walking in submission (for ladies I mean).

Who are you in submission too?

 

[reba]

Thank God that I am a new creature in Christ. Created to be like Jesus, I am loved as much as Jesus was, the Father is with me as much as He was with Jesus, and I am able in the power of the Spirit to speak into the things Jesus would have spoken into had He continued living on this Earth.

Just like any one of us as Christians can do.

Any one of us can speak into the needs of the church at large if the Word points to such a need.

The problem with most Christians in my personal opinion is that they do not see themselves as adequate enough in Christ to do that.

Carlos

You are as one with the Father as Jesus Christ? You young man are walking on dangerous ground.

We speak you do not listen.

 

[carlos123]

Have you not read the scriptures on christians being in submission to one another.

Not sure what you are getting at Reba but of course I have.

Who are you in submission too?

Government authorities around me and the federal government with respect to various things like taxes and otherwise, university authorities at the university I frequent, gym authorities at the gym I go to a lot, church authorities, even my friends in that I general submit to their wishes about various things.

All these authorities place requirements on me to either do certain things or not do them. Often in direct conflict with what I might otherwise want to do.

By the way when I say library and gym authorities I do not mean in the sense that one is subject to the authority of the manager at Burger King when they go in to get a burger type of thing. Without going into details that are irrelevant to this thread...my involvement with these particular authorities is much more involved.

Again I am not sure as to what point you are trying to make if you would not mind elaborating some Reba.

Carlos

 

[carlos123]

You are as one with the Father as Jesus Christ? You young man are walking on dangerous ground.

We speak you do not listen.

That's not quite what I said Reba. I said that the Father is with me as much as He was with Jesus.

All quotations below are from the NASB...highlighting is mine.

John 17:8

As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.

John 17:21

...that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

John 17:23

I in them and You in Me...

John 17:26

I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known, so that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.

Romans 6:4

Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

Galatians 2:20

I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me;

As I said...

God loves me as much as He loved Jesus. That is true for every Christian in this world.

We are one with Jesus through the cross and through Jesus we are also one with the Father. That is true for every Christian in this world.

We, as in our sinful nature, no longer live. The life we now live is Christ living in and through us. That is true of every Christian in this world.

What I said is true for every Christian as much as it is true of me.

If you have a problem with that you need to seriously consider the verses I quoted above.

Carlos

 

[reba]

Not sure what you are getting at Reba but of course I have.



Government authorities around me and the federal government with respect to various things like taxes and otherwise, university authorities at the university I frequent, gym authorities at the gym I go to a lot, church authorities, even my friends in that I general submit to their wishes about various things.

All these authorities place requirements on me to either do certain things or not do them. Often in direct conflict with what I might otherwise want to do.

By the way when I say library and gym authorities I do not mean in the sense that one is subject to the authority of the manager at Burger King when they go in to get a burger type of thing. Without going into details that are irrelevant to this thread...my involvement with these particular authorities is much more involved.

Again I am not sure as to what point you are trying to make if you would not mind elaborating some Reba.

Carlos

Good grief can you not see ? Who are you in spiritual submissioin to.

 

[carlos123]

Good grief can you not see ? Who are you in spiritual submissioin to.

Reba...you asked me who I was in submission to. I answered your direct question.

You don't have to get snippy with me about my not answering a question you yourself did not ask. That's not fair Reba.

I already included church authorities in my answer. I am not willing to get into details of which gym I go to, which church authorities I am submitted to, which library and so forth as I see little or no relevance in divulging such details for purposes of this thread which is about what Paul said about women being silent in church.

If you think such details are relevant by all means let me know why and I will consider it.

Otherwise...if anyone has anything to add about what Paul said I'd like to hear it. If not, I think this thread has run it's course.

Carlos