Women are to be silent when the Church assembles!

[Tina]

Today I am about to go and baptize a women with whom I have been studying God's word with for several weeks now.

I always thought that when God's Word is studied, that already constitutes a church.... where two or three are gathered in His name, God is with them (Matthew 18:20). Surely the woman could not have kept silent during bible studies....

What is the assembly? Let the scripture answer: I Cor. 11:20. Briefly stated its when the brethren assemble for worship. This constitutes the assembly where women are subject to our discussion.

So women are not allowed to worship God during this "assembly" ? Are they to keep silent ?

 

[carlos123]

That's ok we can get back to that later. I posted another question How does a person prophecy? You are a man of many words and I mean no disrespect but the short verison will do.

No disrespect taken Justice. I mean people can read what I post in it's entirety or not. That's entirely up to them.

But for anyone who has an open heart to the truth about this issue I do believe that reading what I have to say in it's entirety might prove beneficial. So I say all that is on my heart to say and will continue doing so when it seems warranted.

I mean that's only fair don't you think? In view of the very long posts in support of positions that negate the plain meaning of what Paul said.

Carlos

 

[reba]

Tina i wonder if the church is assembled at a wedding does the bride say i do?

 

[carlos123]

What is an assembly? church

Ah...an excellent question Reba that requires some careful prayer and consideration!

I could answer off the top of my head but I prefer to take a day or two to think and pray about that some.

Carlos

 

[Tina]

Tina i wonder if the church is assembled at a wedding does the bride say i do?

Have to go home and ask the father .... then make a call and say "I do" .....

go back to wedding and exchange rings ...


Be careful to stay hush the rest of the ceremony, just smile, eat and merry.


Oh ya .... kiss groom without sound ! :boxing :smt056 ing

 

[carlos123]

Dora (i.e handy),

You may or may not see this but if you do see it can you confirm the following as the main points of your contention with what I wrote?

- that the Amplified Bible "superimposes the thoughts of man" on the Scriptures.
- that it is thus "untrustworthy in how some things are interpreted".
- that most scholars recognize the traditions (what you refer to as "paradosis") spoken of by Paul in 1 Cor 11:2 to be applicable to an assembly of the church as opposed to any other context
- that the instructions refered to in 1 Cor:11:17 refer to the previous instructions about head coverings and not those that follow
- that prophecy is a gift given for the edification of the church and that therefore it can only be practiced, presumably, in a church assembly.
- that the silence commanded by Paul in 1 Cor 14:34 is a silence commanded to avoid disruption and that it is not a silence to not speak during an assembly of the church.

Admittedly you covered a lot of ground Dora.

Some of this I won't address because I or others have already addressed it such that it remains to Christians reading this thread to act like the Bereans, to look at their Bible's, and before God to ask themselves if these things are so - holding on to whatever is true and discarding the rest.

But some of what you say I will address later as I have no time to do so adequately at this very moment.

If indeed I accurately summarized what your main points of contention were. If I don't hear from you otherwise I will assume that I did so.

Carlos

 

[carlos123]

Dora (I will continue to address you in response even though you may no longer be in this thread since I am responding to what you in particular said),

I have a minute and wanted to begin to address some of your objections to what I said...

Off the bat, since we do not interpret or should not interpret based on majority opinion but rather based on what the text actually says one of your objections can safely be discounted I think barring any further clarification from you.

Namely the objection that "most scholars recognize the traditions (what you refer to as "paradosis") spoken of by Paul in 1 Cor 11:2 to be applicable to an assembly of the church as opposed to any other context".

If you will be so kind as to elaborate on why the text actually warrants the conclusion that the traditions Paul speaks of apply only in the context (and no other) of the church assembly we can discuss that more fully otherwise I will set aside that objection as irrelevant (since majority opinion - assuming of course that a majority of scholars do indeed agree as you say they do - does not by itself guarantee a correct interpretation).

If we cannot for certain determine that the traditions are meant for an assembly of the church and no other context then such cannot be used to discount the possibility that the head covering instructions may have been intended as general instructions for men and women in everyday life and not specifically to be applied only in an assembly of the church.

That leaves us with...(from my synopsis of what you said)...

- that the Amplified Bible "superimposes the thoughts of man" on the Scriptures.
- that it is thus "untrustworthy in how some things are interpreted".
- that the instructions refered to in 1 Cor:11:17 refer to the previous instructions about head coverings and not those that follow
- that prophecy is a gift given for the edification of the church and that therefore it can only be practiced, presumably, in a church assembly.
- that the silence commanded by Paul in 1 Cor 14:34 is a silence commanded to avoid disruption and that it is not a silence to not speak during an assembly of the church.

Let's see...let's look at the objection that the Amplified Bible is a tool which superimposes on the text the thoughts of man, rendering it useless for help in properly interpreting a set of verses.

While it may be instructive to discuss the accuracy of the Amplified Bible it isn't necessary for me to prove that the Amplifed is as accurate if not more accurate than many translations to support what I said about 1 Cor 11:17 setting the context for the next set of instructions and not referring to the instructions about head coverings.

Support for what I said does not come only from the translation of the Greek as found in the Amplified Bible.

Here are a few others where the English translation supports what I said
(that the instructions referred to in 1 Cor 11:17 refer to the instructions in later verses and NOT to those on head coverings).

All verses are 1 Cor 11:17 (well at least the beginning of it)...

NIV - "In the following directives I have no praise for you..."
ESV (English Standard Version) - "But in the following instructions I..."
GNT (Good News Translation) - "In the following instructions, however, I..."
NRS - (New Revised Standard) - "Now in the following instructions I..."
RSV - (Revised Standard Version) - "But in the following instructions I..."

Those are just some that talk of the instructions Paul is referring to in 1 Cor 11:17 as referring to those that follow which would disassociate the instructions on head coverings as being in the context of the church assembly given in 1 Cor 11:18 and following.

Let's now look at your objection to what I said based on the use of prophecy.

You stated that prophecy was a gift given to the church to bring edification to the Christians (quite true) and that as such it would presumably only be exercised within an assembly of the church (which if true would render my point invalid).

Is it really the case that prophecy can never be exercised outside the boundaries of a church assembly?

How are we to define prophecy?

Let's let the Word define it for us (all quotations are from the NASB unless otherwise noted). 1 Cor 14:3 says that "one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and exhortation and consolation".

Edification, exhortation, and consolation.

Are those only supposed to be done in a church assembly?

Where does it say anything like that in the Word?

You assume (note how assumption is coming up again) that because it says in 1 Cor 14:22 that "prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe." in the context of instructions for how we ought to be in an assembly that prophecy cannot be exercised anywhere else other than in a church assembly.

Prophecy is indeed for believers but no less than tongues are for unbelievers (i.e. "So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers;" 1 Cor 14:22).

Does that however mean that tongues cannot be spoken in a church assembly?

Not at all.

1 Cor 14:26 says (I bolded text to highlight it) "When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation."

Just because tongues are primarily for the sake of unbelievers, to be a sign to them, it doesn't mean that tongues can only be spoken outside a church assembly.

They can be spoken all over in a church assembly as long as an interpretation is also given.

Conversely just because prophecy is for believers it does not mean it cannot be spoken outside a church assembly!

If you say that unbelievers may come into a church assembly and that therefore it is perfectly appropriate to speak in tongues within that context I would say that believers can also be found outside the confines of a church assembly and that as such it would be perfectly appropriate to exercise prophecy for their edification, exhortation, and consolation outside a church assembly.

Wherever believers are found!

To say that prophecy is only for believers and that as such it can only be exercised in a church assembly and that therefore 1 Cor 11:5 can only be talking about instructions that can only be applied in a church assembly is...well...really incorrect.

It is weaving together some truth with some assumptions and even not a little misunderstanding about the nature of prophecy and arriving at an incorrect interpretation of the context that the head covering commands were intended to be applied in.

This leaves us with...

- that the silence commanded by Paul in 1 Cor 14:34 is a silence commanded to avoid disruption and that it is not a silence to not speak during an assembly of the church.

Which I will deal with later.

Carlos

 

[Webb]

In Acts 21 Agabus ( a prophet ) made a prophecy regarding Paul. This was NOT in the assembly, thus an inspired example of a prophecy being made OUTSIDE the assembly of the church. This same chapter mentions Philip's four daughters who prophesied and no one yet has shown where those daughters ever prophecied IN the assembly.

 

[carlos123]

Excellent point Webb. The belief that prophecy can only happen within the context of a church assembly is an assumption that is completely without merit.

The truth is that women, yes, women can prophecy all over the place except in a church assembly.

Which if you think about it gives women a huge amount of freedom to exercise their spiritual gifts as the Spirit within prompts them to do anywhere outside the church assembly.

Why women who profess to be Christian are so prone to dispute Paul's prohibition on them speaking (and thus engaging in prophetic utterances within an assembly of the church as the only place they cannot) is beyond me to understand.

They insist on being able to prophecy and speak wherever men are allowed to do so when the Bible gives them no such freedom.

It strikes me as very similar to the whole feminist mentality that insists on being given the freedom to be considered as good as any man at whatever men may do.

A mentality that is not fit to be embraced by women who profess to be godly.

If we loved God, truly loved Him (and not just in word only), we would be as willing to stand on our heads or walk backwards the rest of our lives as we ought to be with respect to talking or not talking as might please Him.

As Christians we do not have the right to dictate how we will live anymore. We don't have the right to live for self and do only what we might wish to do.

We belong to Him and follow Him as He gives us insight to know what His will is through the Word.

Instead of fighting against what the Word says we ought to jump at the chance to apply it and to see what wonderful effect the Lord might produce by that in our hearts and in our congregations as we all seek humbly to do what it says.

Carlos

 

[Justice]

Not sure what you are asking Justice.

I mean in my understanding it does involve speaking out words to encourage, comfort, and exhort others. Is that a how answer that you were looking for?

May I ask why you say that you are supposed to ask me this? I mean did someone tell you to ask me this?

Carlos

No. Do you understand how the spiritual gifts work? Where do the prophecy words come from? When you figure that out you'll know who ask me to ask you.

Do you believe that women can receive other spiritual gifts like discerning spirits and what is your understanding of discernment?

Are you married?

 

[Stormcrow]

Instead of fighting against what the Word says we ought to jump at the chance to apply it and to see what wonderful effect the Lord might produce by that in our hearts and in our congregations as we all seek humbly to do what it says.

By this statement, you seem to suggest that every church today is experiencing the same problems the Corinthian church was. Is it your intent to impugn all of Christendom?

If so, on what grounds do you claim a letter written to a church some 2,000 years ago to address specific problems applies to every church today?

If not, why fix what isn't broken?

If it hasn't already been stated so clearly, allow me to be the first: I don't like your theology.

 

[Stormcrow]

Why women who profess to be Christian are so prone to dispute Paul's prohibition on them speaking (and thus engaging in prophetic utterances within an assembly of the church as the only place they cannot) is beyond me to understand.

Let's cut to the chase and call your interpretation of Paul's letter what it is:

The "Sit down and shut up, woman!" doctrine. Or we could call it, the "Women should be seen and not heard in church" doctrine.

I'm still trying to figure out how a letter written to address a problem in a church 2,000 years ago should become the legal and doctrinal basis for the treatment of women in every church of all time everywhere. 2

Is it any wonder such beliefs today cause the church to be a laughingstock?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Carlos/ Webb, it isn't about who can or can't walk in a spiritual gift, and where. It's about who is allowed to do so with authority. Why are you ignoring this essential element?

It is this element that gives Paul's instructions to the church at Corinth it's timeless application to all the people of God in all cultures and places in the earth. We in the church make things so complicated when the truth of God is really not that at all.

 

[Webb]

Stormcrow---Since Paul said he taught the same in all the churches, everywhere that takes it beyond Corinth.

Jethro you wrote: ''ITS ABOUT WHO IS ALLOWED TO DO SO WITH AUTHORITY. WHY ARE YOU IGNORING THIS ESSENTIAL ELEMENT?'' Right! Its a matter of authority. Thats what I've been pressing for, WHERE is the Biblical authority for the woman to speak in the assembly???? No one has found that yet.

 

[Sparkey]

Where is the biblical authority for the unemployed to speak (or eat, for that matter)?

http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=41297&p=624932&viewfull=1#post624932

Why did Carlos have to reinterpret (restate) Handy's response before he could answer it?
Did she really say that prophecy was outlawed outside of churches? I missed that part.

 

[Webb]

Whats the relation of that to this thread? As usual those who have no scripture to support their assumptions resort to such, even supposing a wedding assembly is the same as the worship assembly.

Once again: Paul said he taught the same thing in all the churches. That takes his inspired writing beyond the Corinthian church. Give one scripture where the woman was given authority to speak in the worship---just ONE for God has to say something only ONE time to make it true.

 

[Stormcrow]

Stormcrow---Since Paul said he taught the same in all the churches, everywhere that takes it beyond Corinth.

Even assuming that's true, how do you make the leap from Paul addressing a particular problem in Corinth to making it the legal and doctrinal basis for the treatment of women in every church everywhere today???

On what grounds do you tell anyone, especially women, to "sit down and shut up" when what he addressed then isn't a problem today?!?

 

[Webb]

I did not assume, Paul says it. Since he taught the same in all the churches all the churches are given the same injunction. AND IF NOT WHY NOT?

To answer your other question, that teaching of Paul, if obeyed as he intended, is what contributes to peace and harmony in the church today and again IF NOT WHY NOT?

Man-made churches of course may do as they wish, ANYTHING they wish, but the churches striving to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bonds of peace will make every effort to do what scripture directs. NOW, you show us where in the NT the woman spoke in the assembly.

 

[reba]

Whats the relation of that to this thread? As usual those who have no scripture to support their assumptions resort to such, even supposing a wedding assembly is the same as the worship assembly.

Once again: Paul said he taught the same thing in all the churches. That takes his inspired writing beyond the Corinthian church. Give one scripture where the woman was given authority to speak in the worship---just ONE for God has to say something only ONE time to make it true.

1Co 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
Does Paul use the word worship? How does one hold to the word silence and change churches to worship?

One again
2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

 

[Stormcrow]

NOW, you show us where in the NT the woman spoke in the assembly.

In churches I've attended almost every Sunday. We are all still in the new covenant! I have yet to see the problem Paul addressed specifically - namely chaos in church services - as a problem today.

If chaos is a problem in your church, address it there, not here!