Works

[tjw]

This might be an easy question, but I'm going to ask it to make sure I have a good understanding...

When discussing salvation, when someone says "faith plus works," what do you mean by "works?"

Does it mean Catholic sacraments? Does it mean helping the poor (and things like that)? Does it mean trying not to sin?

 

[tjw]

Also, I'm not trying to make this into a debate about salvation... Just the meaning of "works."

 

[francisdesales]

This might be an easy question, but I'm going to ask it to make sure I have a good understanding...

When discussing salvation, when someone says "faith plus works," what do you mean by "works?"

Does it mean Catholic sacraments? Does it mean helping the poor (and things like that)? Does it mean trying not to sin?

"Works" has several meanings. When used disparingly, it refers to the idea that something that I do can earn good graces or position with God. Even if it is an inherently holy and good thing, like obeying the commandments, if one has an internal mindset that God now owes you or should pay you back, this refers to "work" in a bad way, what Paul calls "work of the law".

"Work" can also mean a good thing, such as when James uses it. In this case, it presumes that faith is also involved - and that we do a good deed as a response to God's love within us. It is the outward sign of our faith, without which, we cannot enter the Kingdom of God. Paul calls this "faith working in love" to show how work can also be a good thing.

Thus, a work refers to something people do - but what is important is what is the driving motivation behind the person doing the deed.

A Catholic sacrament is a unique meeting with Jesus Christ, a moment of invisible grace through visible signs. There are seven "formal" sacraments (instituted by Christ), although many things can be "sacramental", such as the Bible or Liturgy. Even watching a wonderful sunset and appreciating God's creation is "sacramental" if it is an experience of God...

Sacramentalism is one of the key tenets of understanding Catholicism.

That God works through creation helps to explain our devotion to the saints and Mary, an heirarchical authority of bishops, and indulgences, for example.

Regards

 

[l'Chante]

A Catholic sacrament is a unique meeting with Jesus Christ, a moment of invisible grace through visible signs. There are seven "formal" sacraments (instituted by Christ),

I'm not fimiliar with all of them. Would you be so kind as to name them for me? Maybe with a brief description, please?

Thanks.

 

[dadof10]

This might be an easy question, but I'm going to ask it to make sure I have a good understanding...

When discussing salvation, when someone says "faith plus works," what do you mean by "works?"

Does it mean Catholic sacraments? Does it mean helping the poor (and things like that)? Does it mean trying not to sin?

"Works" has several meanings. When used disparingly, it refers to the idea that something that I do can earn good graces or position with God. Even if it is an inherently holy and good thing, like obeying the commandments, if one has an internal mindset that God now owes you or should pay you back, this refers to "work" in a bad way, what Paul calls "work of the law".

"Work" can also mean a good thing, such as when James uses it. In this case, it presumes that faith is also involved - and that we do a good deed as a response to God's love within us. It is the outward sign of our faith, without which, we cannot enter the Kingdom of God. Paul calls this "faith working in love" to show how work can also be a good thing.

Thus, a work refers to something people do - but what is important is what is the driving motivation behind the person doing the deed.

A Catholic sacrament is a unique meeting with Jesus Christ, a moment of invisible grace through visible signs. There are seven "formal" sacraments (instituted by Christ), although many things can be "sacramental", such as the Bible or Liturgy. Even watching a wonderful sunset and appreciating God's creation is "sacramental" if it is an experience of God...

Sacramentalism is one of the key tenets of understanding Catholicism.

That God works through creation helps to explain our devotion to the saints and Mary, an heirarchical authority of bishops, and indulgences, for example.

Regards

Nice, concise explanation of the Catholic view on works.

I would only add (for tjw and L'Chante, not for you, Joe) that the "bad works" are works that put God in obligation to man, which, I'm sure is what Francis meant by "earn" above. That was, and still is, the Jewish mindset toward "works of the Law", that when they accomplish the "works", God must uphold His end of the bargain, so to speak.

These are the works that don't save, the others that Francis (and James) mentioned, DO affect our salvation.

 

[l'Chante]

Nice, concise explanation of the Catholic view on works.

I would only add (for tjw and L'Chante, not for you, Joe) that the "bad works" are works that put God in obligation to man, which, I'm sure is what Francis meant by "earn" above. That was, and still is, the Jewish mindset toward "works of the Law", that when they accomplish the "works", God must uphold His end of the bargain, so to speak.

These are the works that don't save, the others that Francis (and James) mentioned, DO affect our salvation.

Thank you for this Dad, but I was actually refering to the seven sacraments. I only know of three. If you could maybe tell me more about them?

 

[Tina]

.
As a Servant of the Lord, to me "works" constitute going out and sharing the good news with people, witnessing to people, praying for them, ministering to those in need - spiritually, financially or any other way, encouraging them, studying and applying God's Word and obeying the commands of Christ, eg. holy communion of bread and wine, baptism, and worshipping of God and fellowship with other believers regularly.

 

[Pard]

Means doing things for the glory of God. I'd say "good things", but no works is truly good before God, for He sees all works as no greater than a dirty rag (and specifically a female hygiene product). None the less they are works that glorify God. It can be things like helping the less fortunate, or sharing the Good News, or what have you. Just do work in the name of God and be Christ-like in doing so.

 

[francisdesales]

Means doing things for the glory of God. I'd say "good things", but no works is truly good before God, for He sees all works as no greater than a dirty rag (and specifically a female hygiene product). None the less they are works that glorify God. It can be things like helping the less fortunate, or sharing the Good News, or what have you. Just do work in the name of God and be Christ-like in doing so.

Unfortunately in the mind of some, that one reference to Isaiah somehow overthrows the rest of the Sacred Scriptures discussion on the absolute necessity that we are to obey God's commandments - which means He IS QUITE happy when we obey them. Numerous Psalms verify this love of the Law and God desiring that we obey Him out of love.

The problem is that Isaiah is speaking about our OWN works done without the inspiration of God, which will always have ulterior motives. Basically, Isaiah is saying the same thing as I said above - that "works of the Law" to earn something or make God owe us are "as filthy rags" and cannot obligate God. However, when God's Spirit moves our will to do a good deed out of love, how can the God of Love NOT be happy with that??? Do we have an indication that God is unhappy with those righteous who do obey Him out of love, such as Isaiah himself??? When we use this wonderful gift of Grace, God is pleased to reward His children.

Regards

 

[Pard]

Right! Only works done to glorify God are of any goodness. I tried to make that apparent from my post. Perhaps not?

 

[francisdesales]

I was actually refering to the seven sacraments. I only know of three. If you could maybe tell me more about them?

Baptism (Baptized into the death and resurrection of Christ, subsequently freed from sin)
Eucharist (Holy Communion, coming into communion with Jesus through the Spirit)
Reconciliation (Confession of our sins to God through a community representative, the priest)
Matrimony (Marriage between a man and woman...And that's it!)
Holy Orders (being ordained a priest, deacon, bishop to serve the community of God)
Anointing of the Sick (an encounter with Jesus the Divine Healer during the final journey to Him)
Confirmation (In the Western (Rome) Church, separated from Baptism, in the East (Orthodox), done at the same time as Baptism. To the West, it signifies the work of the Spirit - sanctification, while Baptism focuses on the work of Jesus - redemption. Basically, it personally "confirms" the faith that our parents vouched for during infant baptism.)

These are the seven sacraments instituted by Christ, infallibly defined at the Council of Trent in the 16th century vs. Protestant tendencies to minimize our faith. Some Protestants do not believe in that God comes to man through any of these "rituals", for some reason.

The Church also has a number of "sacramentals", such as rosaries or blessings of buildings. These are different in that they were instituted by the Church. Also, their power is found more in the prayers of the Church, then in God Himself. The blessings from a sacramental is more intercessionary than an actual presence of God Himself.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Right! Only works done to glorify God are of any goodness. I tried to make that apparent from my post. Perhaps not?

OK, You said all of our works are as filthy rags.

"but no works is truly good before God, for He sees all works as no greater than a dirty rag"

When we love and obey God, we glorify God, correct? Works of love (or, as Paul said, "all that matters is faith working in love") are not filthy rags, since they glorify God, right?

Regards

 

[turnorburn]

Hmmmm!

 

[Drew]

This might be an easy question, but I'm going to ask it to make sure I have a good understanding...

When discussing salvation, when someone says "faith plus works," what do you mean by "works?"

Does it mean Catholic sacraments? Does it mean helping the poor (and things like that)? Does it mean trying not to sin?

Oh boy.

Good question. While it is indeed important to know what others means by "works", it is, of course, important to know what Paul meant by "works".

I will now state what I believe is one of the biggest errors of post-reformation Christendom: In cases where Paul has used the term "works" to refer specifically to the practices of the Law of Moses, which were for Jews only, people have (erroneously) generalized "works" so that it connotes "good deeds".

I cannot overemphasize what a huge and significant mistake I believe this to be.

More later, perhaps.

 

[tjw]

This might be an easy question, but I'm going to ask it to make sure I have a good understanding...

When discussing salvation, when someone says "faith plus works," what do you mean by "works?"

Does it mean Catholic sacraments? Does it mean helping the poor (and things like that)? Does it mean trying not to sin?

Oh boy.

Good question. While it is indeed important to know what others means by "works", it is, of course, important to know what Paul meant by "works".

I will now state what I believe is one of the biggest errors of post-reformation Christendom: In cases where Paul has used the term "works" to refer specifically to the practices of the Law of Moses, which were for Jews only, people have (erroneously) generalized "works" so that it connotes "good deeds".

I cannot overemphasize what a huge and significant mistake I believe this to be.

More later, perhaps.

What are the "works" that James is talking about?

 

[Logos57]

I believe that the works that James is talking about is love.
Galatians 5:6
For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

For compare these two passages
James 2:14-17
14) What doth it profit, my brethren, through a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15) If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food.
16) And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17) Even so faith, if it hath not works is dead, being alone.

I John 3:16-18
16) Hereby perceive we the love of God, because He laid down His life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
17) But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him.
18) My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.


James tells us that if we see a Christian brother/sister have need and we can help but don't it is no profit (work), while John states how does the love of God dwell in us.

See also James 2:8; I Corinthians 13:2.

 

[francisdesales]

I believe that the works that James is talking about is love.
Galatians 5:6
For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

For compare these two passages
James 2:14-17
14) What doth it profit, my brethren, through a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15) If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food.
16) And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17) Even so faith, if it hath not works is dead, being alone.

I John 3:16-18
16) Hereby perceive we the love of God, because He laid down His life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
17) But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him.
18) My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.


James tells us that if we see a Christian brother/sister have need and we can help but don't it is no profit (work), while John states how does the love of God dwell in us.

See also James 2:8; I Corinthians 13:2.

Yes, thank you for pointing out Paul and James do not disagree...

Regards

 

[LaCrum]

The problem with talking about works is that it easily turns into legalism and a list of “dos and don’tsâ€.

I would rather define “works†as being clothed in Christ (Galations 3:27 - for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.)

Being clothed in Christ means to start acting like the new creation He has made you.

I was reading a chapter out of a Malcom Smith book concerning the New Covenant and it was about temptation. He talks about when we try and fight our temptations to sin, we are giving credence to them. He says instead of saying “No†to temptation; say “Yes†instead to Christ. When temptation rears its head (and it will), be present in Christ. Remember that you are in Him and his is in you.

This is how Christ transforms us, by us knowing, accepting and believing who He is and who we are in Him. That’s how I define works.

 

[Joe67]

Heb 13:20-21
20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. KJV

Gal 5:6
6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. KJV

Joe

 

[dadof10]

Oh boy.

Good question. While it is indeed important to know what others means by "works", it is, of course, important to know what Paul meant by "works".

I will now state what I believe is one of the biggest errors of post-reformation Christendom: In cases where Paul has used the term "works" to refer specifically to the practices of the Law of Moses, which were for Jews only, people have (erroneously) generalized "works" so that it connotes "good deeds".

I cannot overemphasize what a huge and significant mistake I believe this to be.

More later, perhaps.

I hope so...