[_ Old Earth _] World-Views: Evolutionism and Biblical

[felix]

So it's unlikely that bestiality could have any evolutionary value.

There are researchers that early in human evolution our ancestors may have cross bred with other apes or some of the other human-like species that existed (e.g. Neanderthal humans). So one could say early humans may have commited bestiality and today's humans are a result of it. But I'm not sure how conclusive research on that matter is, and I'm not sure we should apply the term "bestiality" to that kind of interbreeding at all.

Neanderthals are not apes but (could be Nephilims - interbreeding between sons of God and daughters of men) - which is equally worse like bestiality. The point being, evolution requires bestiality for the human evolution which is not compatible with Bible.

Evolution isn't offering any "better price" than God. They aren't offering the same category of things.
Or maybe I'm not getting your analogy....

If Humans evolved from Monkeys based on evolutionay theory, doesn't it deny the below verse?
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

If evolution took millions of years for getting evolved, doesn't it deny the below verse?
Exod 20:11 For [in] six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that [is] in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

If Y-Chromosome Adam evolved 50000 years before mtDNA Eve, doesn't it deny the below verse?
Gen 2:22 Then the rib which the LORD God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man.

So, let me know what evolution offers which doesn't contradict the Bible.

 

[VirginShallConceive]

The whole reason evolution was started is because people didn't want God telling them what to do, they didnt want to have to answer to anyone.

That is impossible.

Many Christians accept the Theory of Evolution all the while believing in a God that everyone must answer to.

The people who contributed to the Theory of Evolution are way too intelligent to believe they can get away with something as ridiculous as going against the Creator of the Universe. That would be extremely foolish.

 

[felix]

That is impossible.

Many Christians accept the Theory of Evolution all the while believing in a God that everyone must answer to.

The people who contributed to the Theory of Evolution are way too intelligent to believe they can get away with something as ridiculous as going against the Creator of the Universe. That would be extremely foolish.

A taste of your medicine:
Many Jews even today never accept their own Messiah, Jesus Christ. The people who are Jews themselves are way too intelligent to believe they can get away with something as ridiculous as going against the Messiah (and even kill their Messiah from God). That would be extremely foolish.

 

[Milk-Drops]

As a evolutionary biologist can you tell me if bestiality is involved in evolution of humans or not?

No, because beastiality ( sex with organisms outside our species) would not bare offspring.

Also not explicitly saying or not mentioning about God does not make it "not against God". If you buy the only item in shop and suddenly your friend comes and offers a better price to the shop owner for that only product, is s/he not against you? So why is there laws against monopoly in Europe then?

This is silly. The logic you are using makes it that Math or any manual is against God. Mainly because every sentence doesn't state that God said or says.

Anything contrary to His Word and His Scripture is against Him.

Then every explanation of everything is Anti-God. Simple as that, and I'm sorry to tell you that most of us are honest enough to understand that Evolution is not anti-god because scientist don't start every sentence with "God Did It This Way".

Also the last Paragraph in "The Origin of Species" has Darwin accrediting a Creator for starting the process of life in itself. So there.

 

[Milk-Drops]

The whole reason evolution was started is because people didnt want God telling them what to do, they didnt want to have to answer to anyone.

False. The theory has nothing to do with philosophy at all. Many of the People who pioneered the theory where actually Christian men. Genetics was discovered by a Christian Monk named Gregor Mendel. Ken Ham is one of the most renknown Biologists in the US and guess what, he accepts the theory of evolution and is a Christian. Y

I am not sure what God you are refering to but the God of the bible and father of my Lord jesus Christ used Creation. Read Genesis 1-4 KJV. God doesnt need a man made idea to bring things about into existance. Creation and evolution are total opposites.

And I don't need a lobster to tell me what time a banana dances.

 

[Sparkey]

So, let me know what evolution offers which doesn't contradict the Bible.

When I go outside and observe stuff I am free to see what I see. These observations (of my own) add up to a Praise for God because of His creation. When others who do not necessarily share my view bring their expertise into the examination process, they may form various hypotheses. That's just a "best guess" for what may have happened. It is their "narrative".

Old StoryTeller​

What has come of that? One may argue that nothing happens apart from God; I see God pouring knowledge upon the whole earth. What can I get from the study of studies conducted by non-Christian men and women? Easy. We may learn how to take Job's attitude. Recall that he was blameless and upright (Job 1:1). Here's what he said: Job 31:15. He observed that "they" were formed in the womb by God, like as he.

Gene Tagaban​

Going another route, taking another tack: Gene Tagaban (known as Raven Dancer) has toured my campus. He is a motivational speaker and Tlingit storyteller. He is a member of the Turtle Island Storytellers, although he is currently residing in the city of my birth, Tacoma, WA. I've heard many stories, passed down from generation to generation. Some of them are his. My name (Sparrowhawke) allows entrance to circles of storytellers, although I am caucasian, I too am a storyteller, from a family of storytellers. I'll invite you to look at the link I've provided and listen to the Audio to hear from him yourself: "Our life is a story." My point is, what is the difference between my re-enforced tolerance for people outside-my-skin-color categories and that for people within? Have they all not been formed in the womb by God, like as we? Do scientists not deserve the same respect as other cultures, nationalities or groups? So what if they are mostly white men. Can I even care about that? I'll listen to the narrative no matter the source. I'll continue to retain my status as foreigner too. A tent-dweller whose calling to home isn't here, a nomad, tabernacling here for a moment only, tenting here, dwelling here hopefully in peace and treating others as I would want to be treated.

When I turn my glance to the Topical Bible for a quick study of "Strangers" I see 26 verses listed under the topic: What does the Bible say about 'strangers'? Now, this is worth thinking about. Daniel 12:4 speaks of a time when knowledge shall increase, of a time when men will run "to and fro." "But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase." I think that it's time to listen and am asking for an ear to hear what is being said. Asking this for me and thee.

 

[felix]

No, because beastiality ( sex with organisms outside our species) would not bare offspring.

So who was the mate for the first human ? Ape or a miracle cloned baby?

This is silly. The logic you are using makes it that Math or any manual is against God. Mainly because every sentence doesn't state that God said or says.

Luke 11:23 "He who is not with me is against me ..

Sorry, it is what God says. If you want to prove it is not to God, go ahead.

Then every explanation of everything is Anti-God. Simple as that, and I'm sorry to tell you that most of us are honest enough to understand that Evolution is not anti-god because scientist don't start every sentence with "God Did It This Way".

How about some stranger claiming as a Father of your child? So will my Father will be jealous of anyone who reject Him being the Creator of His creation.

Also the last Paragraph in "The Origin of Species" has Darwin accrediting a Creator for starting the process of life in itself. So there.

May be you became a father by adopting someone's child. This is what you want others to believe that God used evolution for His creation?

 

[felix]

When I go outside and observe stuff I am free to see what I see. These observations (of my own) add up to a Praise for God because of His creation. When others who do not necessarily share my view bring their expertise into the examination process, they may form various hypotheses. That's just a "best guess" for what may have happened. It is their "narrative".

Old StoryTeller​

What has come of that? One may argue that nothing happens apart from God; I see God pouring knowledge upon the whole earth. What can I get from the study of studies conducted by non-Christian men and women? Easy. We may learn how to take Job's attitude. Recall that he was blameless and upright (Job 1:1). Here's what he said: Job 31:15. He observed that "they" were formed in the womb by God, like as he.

Gene Tagaban​

Going another route, taking another tack: Gene Tagaban (known as Raven Dancer) has toured my campus. He is a motivational speaker and Tlingit storyteller. He is a member of the Turtle Island Storytellers, although he is currently residing in the city of my birth, Tacoma, WA. I've heard many stories, passed down from generation to generation. Some of them are his. My name (Sparrowhawke) allows entrance to circles of storytellers, although I am caucasian, I too am a storyteller, from a family of storytellers. I'll invite you to look at the link I've provided and listen to the Audio to hear from him yourself: "Our life is a story." My point is, what is the difference between my re-enforced tolerance for people outside-my-skin-color categories and that for people within? Have they all not been formed in the womb by God, like as we? Do scientists not deserve the same respect as other cultures, nationalities or groups? So what if they are mostly white men. Can I even care about that? I'll listen to the narrative no matter the source. I'll continue to retain my status as foreigner too. A tent-dweller whose calling to home isn't here, a nomad, tabernacling here for a moment only, tenting here, dwelling here hopefully in peace and treating others as I would want to be treated.

When I turn my glance to the Topical Bible for a quick study of "Strangers" I see 26 verses listed under the topic: What does the Bible say about 'strangers'? Now, this is worth thinking about.

Even Satan has his view point too - to be like God. He is also created by the same God who created us.

Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities-- his eternal power and divine nature-- have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

When Paul writes to Romans, it is much evident that .. the verse itself is self explanatory.. they are without excuse.

 

[Sparkey]

Even Satan has his view point too - to be like God. He is also created by the same God who created us.

And your point is? Perhaps this is merely said in haste? Take a breath and tell me that you did not mean to imply what I thought when I read it. Do you mean to compare my admonition that we recall that we too were strangers and treat others as we would like to be treated to this? I hope not. That seems out of character for you, brother. I have read what you continued to say about Rom 1:20. I am neither worshiping nor serving the creature more than our Creator and would take umbrage at the suggestion.

Have you read the 26 Scriptures that I've linked? I'd like to suggest that you take another look at Post #20 to examine the ground that I am standing on before we go any further.

 

[Milk-Drops]

So who was the mate for the first human ? Ape or a miracle cloned baby?

Humans evolved as a group. You have had this explained to you several times, so you are being outright dishonest and unethical. Our lineage emerged when our ancestor's gene pool was isolated from the gene pools of those that would become Chimps, Bonobos, and Neanderthal.

Luke 11:23 "He who is not with me is against me ..

I can quote the Bible out of context to. I can quote the parts that tell us the glory of genocide, slavery, and killing the babies of our enemies. It doesen't work if you are trying to use this stuff against people who have read and studied your holy book. So spare me your dishonesty.

How about some stranger claiming as a Father of your child? So will my Father will be jealous of anyone who reject Him being the Creator of His creation.

Considering we live in an age where we can test the genetics of Children and the parents, and by golly all organisms, its really easy to test to see if someone is actually the father of a child.

May be you became a father by adopting someone's child. This is what you want others to believe that God used evolution for His creation?

No it isn't and stop trying to tell people what you think their motives are. You have done nothing but make claims about evolution, philosophy, and dating methods that you can't back up. When other point this out, you threaten people with your interpretation of your God.

You have no authority to make the claims you make. I have nothing against Christians and can respect Christians that give me the same respect. What I can't stand are people that completely disrespect me, make stuff up and spread false information about something that they don't' understand and then hide behind some Authority when they get called on it.

I'm not rebuking you because you are a Christian, I'm rebuking you because you are dishonest and show no respect fro anyone who disagrees with you, and then waste people's time by acting like a child when asked to back up your statement. Then dragging out random cryptic Bible verses as some kind of authority to not take responsibility for your missteps is just the icing on the Cake.

Be an adult and answer a simple question. Where did you get your information about Evolution? From biologists? Or was it from people who are Anti Evolution?

 

[Sparkey]

Humans evolved as a group. You have had this explained to you several times, so you are being outright dishonest and unethical.

Keep your comments to the subject and not "to the man". Consider this a warning to the thread. I will not strive with this conversation forever.

Meatballsub, I will say the same to you as I've said to others. This seems out of character for you. Rein it back, please. Recall that you have zero stake in the Evolution-ism because you are not a proponent of that.

I do understand that sometimes things get heated. I am convinced that we can speak about such things amicably. To all parties, please do not try to prove me wrong in this.

 

[VirginShallConceive]

A taste of your medicine:
Many Jews even today never accept their own Messiah, Jesus Christ. The people who are Jews themselves are way too intelligent to believe they can get away with something as ridiculous as going against the Messiah (and even kill their Messiah from God). That would be extremely foolish.

It's not like the Jews believe that God sent Jesus down to earth for them, and they are actually boycotting God's real gift. They don't believe. To them, he is just another false Messiah claimant.

The comment I originally replied to had even one more hole than yours. Just like yours, the original respondee is oblivious to the simple fact that the non-Christian believers in evolution don't have a scheme against the Christian God. They don't believe He exists.

Get that through your head.

Worse than yours, there are actually Christians who accept the Theory of Evolution. These people aren't trying to get rid of God. They're trying to get in touch with reality.


You need better ingredients if you're trying to emulate my medicine.

 

[felix]

And your point is? Perhaps this is merely said in haste? Take a breath and tell me that you did not mean to imply what I thought when I read it. Do you mean to compare my admonition that we recall that we too were strangers and treat others as we would like to be treated to this? I hope not. That seems out of character for you, brother. I have read what you continued to say about Rom 1:20. I am neither worshiping nor serving the creature more than our Creator and would take umbrage at the suggestion.

Have you read the 26 Scriptures that I've linked? I'd like to suggest that you take another look at Post #20 to examine the ground that I am standing on before we go any further.

No, the reply wasn't pointed towards you.

What I meant was, evolutionists are without excuse. The reason I said this is because, you said they have their view point. So, my point being, their view point cannot be other than God created them all as the Bible says.

 

[felix]

Humans evolved as a group. You have had this explained to you several times, so you are being outright dishonest and unethical. Our lineage emerged when our ancestor's gene pool was isolated from the gene pools of those that would become Chimps, Bonobos, and Neanderthal.

I had explained (may be in other thread) that the first humans cannot be evolved from a group because of the three step tool problem of intelligence. No animal can use three or more steps in tools or three tools simultaneously to solve a problem or finish a job. This is the fundamental difference between a human and an animal.

It is also shown that no animal other than humans have the ability to ask questions themselves. When a trainer of a monkey returns, the monkey will never ask where is the trainer going? Nor will it have the intuition to ask questions itself. There are two attempts in this century by scientist who grew monkeys like their own child (actually along with their son). Their son grew and did everything as scheduled but the monkey did not. Every attempt to teach the monkey failed to prove intelligence but rather, they do what is "trained" repeatedly as in circus.

This defines the difference between humans and animals. This intelligence does not evolve as a group. It is individual. The first human is always intelligent and is not an animal. So, does it requires the first human to do bestiality for evolution to occur.

I can quote the Bible out of context to. I can quote the parts that tell us the glory of genocide, slavery, and killing the babies of our enemies. It doesen't work if you are trying to use this stuff against people who have read and studied your holy book. So spare me your dishonesty.

That wasn't out of context.

Luke 11:23 "He who is not with me is against me ..

The above is very much true.

Considering we live in an age where we can test the genetics of Children and the parents, and by golly all organisms, its really easy to test to see if someone is actually the father of a child.

So, which genetics have proved that your fore-fathers are monkeys?

No it isn't and stop trying to tell people what you think their motives are. You have done nothing but make claims about evolution, philosophy, and dating methods that you can't back up. When other point this out, you threaten people with your interpretation of your God.

That's wrong. I did backed up every claim.

There is no experiment for evolution. So, what result do I expect from a new species being created? I can't understand how people desperately want to believe something that does not even have an experiment but willing to accept the conclusion.

I also proved that radiometric isotope generation in upper atmosphere can never be constant and the assumptions are invalid.

You have no authority to make the claims you make. I have nothing against Christians and can respect Christians that give me the same respect. What I can't stand are people that completely disrespect me, make stuff up and spread false information about something that they don't' understand and then hide behind some Authority when they get called on it.

I'm not rebuking you because you are a Christian, I'm rebuking you because you are dishonest and show no respect fro anyone who disagrees with you, and then waste people's time by acting like a child when asked to back up your statement. Then dragging out random cryptic Bible verses as some kind of authority to not take responsibility for your missteps is just the icing on the Cake.

Be an adult and answer a simple question. Where did you get your information about Evolution? From biologists? Or was it from people who are Anti Evolution?

Where did I showed no respect? Let me know I can edit it to remove them (or) will try to answer in a respectful way. I have no problem with that.

 

[felix]

It's not like the Jews believe that God sent Jesus down to earth for them, and they are actually boycotting God's real gift. They don't believe. To them, he is just another false Messiah claimant.

The comment I originally replied to had even one more hole than yours. Just like yours, the original respondee is oblivious to the simple fact that the non-Christian believers in evolution don't have a scheme against the Christian God. They don't believe He exists.

Get that through your head.

Worse than yours, there are actually Christians who accept the Theory of Evolution. These people aren't trying to get rid of God. They're trying to get in touch with reality.

You need better ingredients if you're trying to emulate my medicine.

I know exactly what you are saying. I may have asked this, but will try to ask again:

How much will a person believe in evolution if they actually had a personal relationship with God?

It is true that most evolutionists are atheists and their first and foremost assumption is: there is no God.

Coming to Christians, the more closer they are with God will make them believe in Creation by their Creator and the most doubts arise in Bible and His creation abilities will move them towards evolution. When this doubt is ripe, they reject Christ and become atheists.

 

[Milk-Drops]

I had explained (may be in other thread) that the first humans cannot be evolved from a group because of the three step tool problem of intelligence. No animal can use three or more steps in tools or three tools simultaneously to solve a problem or finish a job. This is the fundamental difference between a human and an animal.

There is no such rule in biology that states any kind of Tool barrier. Do you have a source for your 3 step theory?

It is also shown that no animal other than humans have the ability to ask questions themselves.

Irrelevant of the evidence of evolution. This Statement doesn't discount all the other evidence of evolution, just opens up more room for study.

When a trainer of a monkey returns, the monkey will never ask where is the trainer going? Nor will it have the intuition to ask questions itself. There are two attempts in this century by scientist who grew monkeys like their own child (actually along with their son). Their son grew and did everything as scheduled but the monkey did not. Every attempt to teach the monkey failed to prove intelligence but rather, they do what is "trained" repeatedly as in circus.

Your off on some of your informaiton, considering the experiment you are referring to didn't involve a monkey, but a Chimpanzee, and also it has been discovered that chimpanzees do have social hierarchys, are curious, and do have self reflection. They just don't have the full capabilities we as humans do to fully reflect. Neanderthal did though.

This defines the difference between humans and animals.

No, our fused 2nd chromosome and intelligent capabilities distinguish us from other apes.

This intelligence does not evolve as a group. It is individual.

Sorry to say that the evidence is contrary to your statements.

The first human is always intelligent and is not an animal. So, does it requires the first human to do bestiality for evolution to occur.

Your made up rules don't apply to the theory of evoution considering you are using your own made up definitions of Bestiality and Evolution.

That wasn't out of context.

Luke 11:23 "He who is not with me is against me ..

The above is very much true.

When Jesus was warning his disciples about those that would destroy his teachings and not about he everyday common man that has nothing to do with what Jesus taught. That line is about he current situation Jesus and his followers were in during that part of the gospel. Considering this is the same Jesus that told his Father to forgive the folly of man because they do not know what they do when he was hung on the cross later on. The full context is that its not about disagreements over ideas, but the whole. Trying to over blow the theory of evolution and make it into some monster doesn't help you case.

So, which genetics have proved that your fore-fathers are monkeys?

Another dishonest trope pulled out instead of answer a very simple question. Answer the back log of questions first before we go on another wild goose chase.

That's wrong. I did backed up every claim.

Nope, still waiting for your to give me evidence that isn't the Bible.

There is no experiment for evolution.

I've done them in the lab sir. Sorry, stop trying to make claims that you can't back up.

So, what result do I expect from a new species being created?

It won't be able to breed with the father species it came from anymore.

I can't understand how people desperately want to believe something that does not even have an experiment but willing to accept the conclusion.

Maybe its because you are holding onto a lot of misinformation and whenever anyone trys to help you understand you change the subject?

I also proved that radiometric isotope generation in upper atmosphere can never be constant and the assumptions are invalid.

You never backed it up and I'm not going down that Rabbit hole. Either submit a paper, or forget about it.

Where did I showed no respect?

Maybe when you said a child had more intelligence then me?

 

[VirginShallConceive]

I know exactly what you are saying. I may have asked this, but will try to ask again:

How much will a person believe in evolution if they actually had a personal relationship with God?

I saw you ask that question before, and I believe I saw it answered correctly.

A person believes in God. That person also believes in the Theory of Gravity. They accept the Theory of Gravity as a human explanation of the forces that God created, because He created everything.

A person believes in God. That person also believes in the Theory of Evolution. They accept the Theory of Evolution as a human explanation of the forces that God created, because He created everything.

These human explanations become more accurate and complete as time goes by, but will never be 100% complete because for every answer we find, there is another "Why?" question that comes immediately after we find an answer. It is infinite.

The Theory of Evolution is an explanation of the natural processes involved in the evolution of living organisms. It does not explain the origin of Life.

I repeat:

It does not explain the origin of Life.

 

[Free]

I know exactly what you are saying. I may have asked this, but will try to ask again:

How much will a person believe in evolution if they actually had a personal relationship with God?

It is true that most evolutionists are atheists and their first and foremost assumption is: there is no God.

Coming to Christians, the more closer they are with God will make them believe in Creation by their Creator and the most doubts arise in Bible and His creation abilities will move them towards evolution. When this doubt is ripe, they reject Christ and become atheists.

So you are able to judge the hearts of believers? There are strong believers who believe in evolution and it is very wrong to say that a professing believer who also believes evolution doesn't have a close relationship with God or has doubts and moving towards atheism. Since the Bible never gives the how of it all, just who started it all, we simply cannot make the Bible say what we want with complete disregard for science.

So as per the OP and the topic of this thread, this is not a matter of evolution vs creation nor evolution vs Christianity. That is a categorical mistake. This isn't evolution vs creation, since God (an intelligent agent) could have used evolution (a mechanism) as the process or a process of creating. What it does come down to is scientific naturalism vs theism.

 

[Free]

To everyone:

Please keep this thread on topic and address the arguments, not the person. I would sure not like to have to close the thread and/or revoke science forum privileges.

 

[VirginShallConceive]

What it does come down to is scientific naturalism vs theism.

I agree.

The word "evolutionism" is misleading, because it has the word "evolution" in it. I like the term you used: "scientific naturalism". It's confusions like these that can facilitate the derailment of a thread topic. One time, I saw someone referring to someone else's acceptance of science as "Scientology". They never knew that Scientology was an actual religion that was far from being correctly scientific.