Abomination of Desolation in 70AD

[reba]

Sorry, Reba. I apologize. I WAS being snarky!

:toofunny

I read BroMike to be being a lot funny and a bit snarky ..... I wanted so bad to snark him, some times being a mod has its down side......You answered in kind not too snarky and funny .... As long as those type of remarks stay in the back ground, not too often I don't find fault ...

 

[reba]

isreal as a nation that does the temple thing?

So when they build a new temple, it will be another age?

God defines the ages not man

 

[JLB]

isreal as a nation that does the temple thing?

So when they build a new temple, it will be another age?

God defines the ages not man

Agreed!

34 And Jesus answered and said to them, "The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:24-36


JLB

 

[reba]

But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 3

Are you married JLB? if so I guess you wont be part of the resurrection?

 

[Sinthesis]

Hebrews 9 (written to Hebrews) is explaining how the covenant of animal blood for the covering of sin was soon to be ended, leaving only the more perfect covenant of Jesus' blood for the remission of sin to remain. With no more confusion in that generation caused by two covenants, the Hebrews could either understand the removal of the covenant of works as a judgement from God against them, or accept Jesus' covenant of Grace as a blessing from God for them.

 

[JLB]

But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 3

Are you married JLB? if so I guess you wont be part of the resurrection?

Reba, what in the world are you talking about ???

How can you get that out of Jesus' teaching???

This age, which we are in now; People marry and they die.

That age; People do not marry, nor do they die.

Simple!


JLB

 

[jasoncran]

26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

I know what the context is. and what he was explaining to the Jews. But what does the words say, BUT NOW, ONCE at the end of the ages, ....by the sacrifice of Himself. The author is saying that it was the end of the ages when He did this. That is my point and I wish you would address the prepositional phrase "at the end of the ages." I could take out that phrase without losing the context in anyway. The prep. phrase just gives detail to when this happened.

So what did the author mean by "at the end of the age" by the way it's the same Gk word that is used in other scripture and translated "world". And in the KJV it is translated 'end of the world". So how could it have happened at the "end of the world".

This is the perfect of example of not being able to determine time by certain phrases used in the eastern world, phrases the Hebrews would have understood.
He is referring to Jesus on the Cross, sacrificing Himself. Or is he referring to some future sacrifice?

the end of the law that is what that means or isreal as a nation that does the temple thing.

isreal as a nation that does the temple thing?

So when they build a new temple, it will be another age?


JLB

isreal according to jews isn't the temple or land but people that are his! get it!!!! a jew is part of isreal whether he does the torah or not. its both an ethnicity and a faith to them. we should be that way about each other but we don't.when I said that I meant the isreal of old. a saved "isreal" will never ever be like that again that is why I said the end of the age. the age then as that they had moses and the torah and all that to be under. that is done away with. even the jews say today we can never fully do that again. they speak of not even needed animals anymore to atone.

 

[Hope of glory]

26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

I know what the context is. and what he was explaining to the Jews. But what does the words say, BUT NOW, ONCE at the end of the ages, ....by the sacrifice of Himself. The author is saying that it was the end of the ages when He did this. That is my point and I wish you would address the prepositional phrase "at the end of the ages." I could take out that phrase without losing the context in anyway. The prep. phrase just gives detail to when this happened.

So what did the author mean by "at the end of the age" by the way it's the same Gk word that is used in other scripture and translated "world". And in the KJV it is translated 'end of the world". So how could it have happened at the "end of the world".

This is the perfect of example of not being able to determine time by certain phrases used in the eastern world, phrases the Hebrews would have understood.
He is referring to Jesus on the Cross, sacrificing Himself. Or is he referring to some future sacrifice?

Deborah13
The word "end" is "synteleia" and means "a complete combination, a completion, consummation, end"

The sacrifice of Christ was the "completion and consummating end of all ages". It was the ultimate event of history and eternity and was therefore the "end" of the ages.
From heavens perspective, "it is finished"! That is, Gods complete redemption and reconciliation of man and the universe was finished at the cross.....but not all has been yet manifested.

The "end of the age" was finished in the heart of God at the cross, physically experienced by Jerusalems destruction in 70ad, and is now manifested and by the demonstration and operation of the kingdom of God in the life of believers, both individually and corporately.

As Gods kingdom ever increases through the Church, we give witness to the cross and the fact that the "old age" has
ended, and the Kingdom has come....."and of the increase of His government and peace there shall be no end...."

Blessings
Hope of glory

 

[reba]

Reba, what in the world are you talking about ???

How can you get that out of Jesus' teaching???

This age, which we are in now; People marry and they die.

That age; People do not marry, nor do they die.

Simple!

Just a dumb thought as to context

 

[jasoncran]

for the last time context, context and context! oh and don't forget the first audience too!

so goes the meme.if we forget that jesus and God dealt with the people who heard him, were moved by his unctions then we really haven't any right to teach others what the word says as we don't get it. god didn't write the bible to us, but for us! the bible addressed isssues then that the first audience had that we don't have.

 

[Hope of glory]

But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 3

Are you married JLB? if so I guess you wont be part of the resurrection?

Reba, what in the world are you talking about ???

How can you get that out of Jesus' teaching???

This age, which we are in now; People marry and they die.

That age; People do not marry, nor do they die.

Simple!

JLB

JLB

You said: This age, which we are in now; People marry and they die.

That age; People do not marry, nor do they die.

So, here you understand "this age" to be the "Jesus' contemporary age", and "that age" to be a "future age"...correct?
So just so I got it straight....your saying "this" means "this" and "that" means that....correct?

Why then in the olivet discourses do you say Jesus' words "this generation" do not refer to his "contemporary generation"?
Why do you say "this generation" actually means "that generation" (a future generation)?
Why does "this" not mean "this" anymore?

According to you shouldn't "this age" actually mean a future age (that age)??????

Why the inconsistencies?????

Hope of glory

 

[JLB]

So, here you understand "this age" to be the "Jesus' contemporary age", and "that age" to be a "future age"...correct? So just so I got it straight....your saying "this" means "this" and "that" means that....correct?

I said what Jesus said -

This age: People marry and they die.

That age [age to come]: People neither marry nor are given in marriage, nor do they die, being sons of the resurrection.

You added contemporary to what I said.

Why then in the olivet discourses do you say Jesus' words "this generation" do not refer to his "contemporary generation"? Why do you say "this generation" actually means "that generation" (a future generation)? Why does "this" not mean "this" anymore?

The generation that sees the sun, moon and stars event will see the Son of Man Coming in power and great Glory.


28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

which is this event -

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. 17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, "Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great." Revelation 19:11-18

Are you trying to convince me that this event happened in 70 AD?

Do you think by saying this means that, and that means this, you are going to somehow convince everyone that Revelation 19 has happened in 70 AD.

I would encourage you to find something more productive to do with your time.



JLB

 

[Brother Mike]

The generation that sees the sun, moon and stars event will see the Son of Man Coming in power and great Glory.


28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

This part busted it for me. A whole lot of things had to have happened in 70ad that I can't find recorded in history anywhere. Taking one focal point of a temple found in history that gets knocked over, yet not wondering where the other things are just don't make much sense to me. We have a horse rider spreading disease, with what technology in 70ad? Why this horse rider not mentioned anywhere in History text?

That is just one of many things. Why can't we just as easy interpret this scripture with a different context and have it make sense? It makes more sense than missing all these other historical events that should have been recorded.

Luk 21:5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,

There comment was about the nice precious stones, and the gifts. Now Jesus picks things up spiritually, He heard their comment about a brick building that was going to get knocked down anyway at some point in History. It would have crumbled to the ground if not destroyed by some army. So, Jesus does not care what happens to this temple, it's coming down no matter what.

However it's a temple with precious stones and gifts...............

Act 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
Holy Spirit in the Temple of man.

Eph_4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Ministers as gifts.............

1Pe 2:4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

We are lively stones.........................

Temple, Gifts, Stones..................... Jesus the chief corner stone.

1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

Jesus Said.............
Luk 21:6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Not one stone upon another, they shall be thrown down. That is stone by stone, you don't crash a temple stone by stone. Jesus is singling out each separate precious stone. Jesus never mentioned the Temple building as a whole, but the precious stones that each get thrown down.

What Jesus say next.

Luk 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

Jesus tells them about how the stones are going to thrown down. Nation against nation is not some little army knocking over some temple in the Middle East. This is a world wide event, where the Gospel had been preached all over the World.

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.


Here is your Temple area, as described in Danial. It's not about a temple, it's about the desolation. Jesus did not mention the same temple twice, in fact He did not mention a temple at all concerning the armies coming around Jerusalem.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

You don't see a temple here either............ Holy place is a land area.

Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

The whole holy land, the city and any temples.

This has not happened yet!!!! We have a whole lot of other events not accounted for in History.

Mike.

 

[Hope of glory]

So, here you understand "this age" to be the "Jesus' contemporary age", and "that age" to be a "future age"...correct? So just so I got it straight....your saying "this" means "this" and "that" means that....correct?

I said what Jesus said -

This age: People marry and they die.

That age [age to come]: People neither marry nor are given in marriage, nor do they die, being sons of the resurrection.

You added contemporary to what I said.

Why then in the olivet discourses do you say Jesus' words "this generation" do not refer to his "contemporary generation"? Why do you say "this generation" actually means "that generation" (a future generation)? Why does "this" not mean "this" anymore?

The generation that sees the sun, moon and stars event will see the Son of Man Coming in power and great Glory.


28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

which is this event -

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. 17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, "Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great." Revelation 19:11-18

Are you trying to convince me that this event happened in 70 AD?

Do you think by saying this means that, and that means this, you are going to somehow convince everyone that Revelation 19 has happened in 70 AD.

I would encourage you to find something more productive to do with your time.



JLB

JLB
You really should answer other posters questions.

My point was clear, you are being inconsistent in your interpretations.
By Jesus saying "this age", he was referring to his present contemporary age, the age he was living in, not a future age.
I know you agree with that statement.
Why then when Jesus says "this generation", do you act like he is referring to a future generation and not his contemporary first century generation?
"This age" meant the "then present age"
"This generation" meant the "then present generation"

Your denial of this simple fact shows an example of the inconsistencies upon which your doctrine is built.

By the way, Revelation 19 is not "an event"!

 

[Hope of glory]

The generation that sees the sun, moon and stars event will see the Son of Man Coming in power and great Glory.


28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

This part busted it for me. A whole lot of things had to have happened in 70ad that I can't find recorded in history anywhere. Taking one focal point of a temple found in history that gets knocked over, yet not wondering where the other things are just don't make much sense to me. We have a horse rider spreading disease, with what technology in 70ad? Why this horse rider not mentioned anywhere in History text?

That is just one of many things. Why can't we just as easy interpret this scripture with a different context and have it make sense? It makes more sense than missing all these other historical events that should have been recorded.

Luk 21:5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,

There comment was about the nice precious stones, and the gifts. Now Jesus picks things up spiritually, He heard their comment about a brick building that was going to get knocked down anyway at some point in History. It would have crumbled to the ground if not destroyed by some army. So, Jesus does not care what happens to this temple, it's coming down no matter what.

However it's a temple with precious stones and gifts...............

Act 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
Holy Spirit in the Temple of man.

Eph_4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Ministers as gifts.............

1Pe 2:4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

We are lively stones.........................

Temple, Gifts, Stones..................... Jesus the chief corner stone.

1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

Jesus Said.............
Luk 21:6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Not one stone upon another, they shall be thrown down. That is stone by stone, you don't crash a temple stone by stone. Jesus is singling out each separate precious stone. Jesus never mentioned the Temple building as a whole, but the precious stones that each get thrown down.

What Jesus say next.

Luk 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

Jesus tells them about how the stones are going to thrown down. Nation against nation is not some little army knocking over some temple in the Middle East. This is a world wide event, where the Gospel had been preached all over the World.

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.


Here is your Temple area, as described in Danial. It's not about a temple, it's about the desolation. Jesus did not mention the same temple twice, in fact He did not mention a temple at all concerning the armies coming around Jerusalem.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

You don't see a temple here either............ Holy place is a land area.

Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the
prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

The whole holy land, the city and any temples.

This has not happened yet!!!! We have a whole lot of other events not accounted for in History.

Mike.

Brother Mike

You said "Not one stone upon another, they shall be thrown down. That is stone by stone, you don't crash a temple stone by stone. Jesus is singling out each separate precious stone. Jesus never mentioned the Temple building as a whole, but the precious stones that each get thrown down"

So you think these "stones" refer to the body of Christ?

Eph.3:6 "And hath raised us up together and made us sit together in heavenly (places) in Christ"

The words "thrown down" is "katalyma" and means "to dissolve, to destroy, demolish, overthrow, throw down"!

Tell me Brother Mike, when will the body of Christ be dissolved, demolished, destroyed, and thrown down from their heavenly place in Christ????

I think it's ironic, you want to take the stars as "literally" falling to the earth, yet you want to "spiritualize" these "stones"!

If this is your interpretation you must see a really little Jesus and a really defeated church, just "hanging on by a stone" lol!

 

[JLB]

Why then when Jesus says "this generation", do you act like he is referring to a future generation

I have answered this question from you countless times, and it seems you just can not or will not receive what Jesus said.

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 32 "Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near--at the doors! 34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.


33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near--at the doors! 34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.

You nor anyone else can separate all these things that Jesus just listed, from THIS GENERATION!

The generation that sees all these things that He just listed, is the generation that sees the Son of Man coming in power and great glory.

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

This event is part of all these things He listed, yet you and all you preterist followers try to explain these signs away as symbolic, like the rest of the signs that Jesus listed.

The generation that sees the Abomination of Desolation, is the generation that see's the sun, moon and stars event, is also the generation that sees the Son of Man coming in power and glory and gather His people at the resurrection.



THIS IS THE ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION!

Please tell me that this is not your big evidence that shows that Jesus came in 70 AD and the resurrection is past.

Because if it is you are seriously wasting your time.


JLB

 

[Brother Mike]

I think it's ironic, you want to take the stars as "literally" falling to the earth, yet you want to "spiritualize" these "stones"!

If this is your interpretation you must see a really little Jesus and a really defeated church, just "hanging on by a stone" lol!

We compare scripture with scripture. I have Peter telling us that we are precious stones, Jesus is the chief corner stone. I have a scripture to compare with another one. Jesus then tells them what will happen to believers at that point. None left.................... All the light is thrown out of the World, we are the light. The stones are thrown out because the World does not want the light.

You have some type of spiritual stars, spiritual moon, and spiritual sun. You also have a spiritual Jesus coming in the clouds. We have spiritual earthquakes, sea roaring, horse riders all have to be spiritual because there is no historical evidence written about this major events. You can't have the mentioned in the bible because 70ad conveniently takes place after it was all written.

We are seated in heavenly places right now with Jesus. Already saved, already seated. It is a spiritual standing for earth, we are right before the Lord. This has nothing to do with us getting persecuted, or even being hit by a car (Not that I would get hit by a car)

You have one little bit of History proving possibly that some temple was knocked down by bad guys. That is it!!!! the rest have to become parables, spiritual, or hyperbole. Then you want us to believe all this based on some history text about some temple getting knocked over?? Your asking way to much from us Hope In Glory. I think you just need to change your views, because your holding onto.

Mike.

 

[JLB]

I think it's ironic, you want to take the stars as "literally" falling to the earth, yet you want to "spiritualize" these "stones"!

If this is your interpretation you must see a really little Jesus and a really defeated church, just "hanging on by a stone" lol!

We compare scripture with scripture. I have Peter telling us that we are precious stones, Jesus is the chief corner stone. I have a scripture to compare with another one. Jesus then tells them what will happen to believers at that point. None left.................... All the light is thrown out of the World, we are the light. The stones are thrown out because the World does not want the light.

You have some type of spiritual stars, spiritual moon, and spiritual sun. You also have a spiritual Jesus coming in the clouds. We have spiritual earthquakes, sea roaring, horse riders all have to be spiritual because there is no historical evidence written about this major events. You can't have the mentioned in the bible because 70ad conveniently takes place after it was all written.

We are seated in heavenly places right now with Jesus. Already saved, already seated. It is a spiritual standing for earth, we are right before the Lord. This has nothing to do with us getting persecuted, or even being hit by a car (Not that I would get hit by a car)

You have one little bit of History proving possibly that some temple was knocked down by bad guys. That is it!!!! the rest have to become parables, spiritual, or hyperbole. Then you want us to believe all this based on some history text about some temple getting knocked over?? Your asking way to much from us Hope In Glory. I think you just need to change your views, because your holding onto junk doctrine.

Mike.

agreed


JLB

 

[reba]

Because a members view is different does not imply the other guys view is:

Junk
False
A Lie
of satan
wrong
do you all get the idea?
Please lets watch the use of words that are used to, or will fire some one up! We are grown ups think a bit before we fire off the first thing that comes to mind....I am not the only one that needs to be careful of the buttons pushed.


We have rules in place for the benefit of everyone. One of the reasons we are here is the rules. Getting this rule pretty much in my head has been a blessing....


2.4: No Trolling. Do not make an inflammatory remark just to get a response. Address issues not personalities. Respect where people are in their spiritual walk, and respect all others in general. Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defense of the Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice.

Not necessarily directed at the last poster.

 

[Brother Mike]

Junk
False
A Lie
of satan
wrong
do you all get the idea?
Please lets watch the use of words that are used to, or will fire some one up! We are grown ups think a bit before we fire off the first thing that comes to mind....I am not the only one that needs to be careful of the buttons pushed.

We are trying to save this Brother Reba. So the term junk was not meant to be mean or put them down. We want them to consider their thinking and let go of the junk. We don't want the junk in their life because we care. Hope in Glory has some good points, but He takes this whole "It's already come to pass" way to overboard.............

Even myself, I believe (I know) that Rev 12 has already come to pass. JBL does not believe that but I did presents scriptures that where line upon line. At least I had scriptures and presented a very reasonable argument. I don't slam everything else into the past though. That is a doctrine, taking a idea and applying it to everything, and it just don't wash unless it can't be refuted at any level.



Mike.