dirtfarmer here

[dirtfarmer]

Works have no part in justification, that is all by grace. It is sanctification that has works. After we are justified by grace we are a new creation and were created in Christ Jesus unto good works.
There are no works that can justify, but without works, one cannot be sanctified.

 

[stovebolts]

Works have no part in justification, that is all by grace. It is sanctification that has works. After we are justified by grace we are a new creation and were created in Christ Jesus unto good works.
There are no works that can justify, but without works, one cannot be sanctified.

What would you say is the catalyst for justification?

In other words, who gets to be justified and why?

 

[dirtfarmer]

What would you say is the catalyst for justification?

In other words, who gets to be justified and why?

hello StoveBolts, dirtfarmer here

When make the statement "who gets to be justified", that seems to imply works. No one "gets to be justified". Justification comes because of faith in Christ without works.

 

[Jim Parker]

Works have no part in justification, that is all by grace.

So what do I do with this bit of the word of God?
Jas 2:24 ... a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

 

[dirtfarmer]

So what do I do with this bit of the word of God?
Jas 2:24 ... a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

hello Jim Parker, dirtfarmer here

Not being smart nor sarcastic, but, if you rightly divide the word of truth, you would apply it to whom it was written.
James 1:1, " James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ," now the next phrase tells us to whom it was written if we rightly divide and apply the word of truth. "to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting." Is the Church part of the 12 tribes that are scattered abroad? No, the Church is the body of Christ made up of both Jew and Gentile that have been made a new creation in Christ Jesus.
James 1:2 " My brethren"
James 2:1 " My brethren" and several others places in this chapter
James 3:1 " My brethren"
Who was James? was he not an apostle to the Jews, hence, the "my brethren". Galatians 2:9, " And when James, Cephas and John, who seemed to be pillars," These were appointed to be apostles to the circumcision(Jews).

In Acts 21 we find Paul at Jerusalem and " the brethren received" them gladly. How many Gentiles do you suppose were at the Church in Jerusalem?

James was an apostle to the "the brethren", the Jews, therefore if you apply scripture to whom it is written, there is no confusion.

James 2:24 is in reference to other believers. If God has to see our "works" to know that we are saved, then what happens to scripture that God looks on our heart and knows that we are saved?

 

[Jim Parker]

James was an apostle to the "the brethren", the Jews, therefore if you apply scripture to whom it is written, there is no confusion.

That is a very poor excuse to dismiss the word of God. The Church kept his letter in the Canon of scripture because it was written TO THE CHURCH so the idea that it is only for Jews is utter nonsense.

If you think you will enter the kingdom of heaven without any good works you are in for a very big disappointment.

Jesus said at Jhn 5:26-29
For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which
all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—
those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,
and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

To fail to do what Jesus commanded is to do evil, by the way.

Jesus said that, when He comes to judge mankind, he will separate the righteous from the wicked according to what they did or did not do. (Mat 25:31-46)

He also said to "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven." (Mat 5:16) The light He wants you to shine is your good works.

Faith without works is dead. (Jas 2:20)
Dead things do not produce life: not earthly life and not eternal life.

And Paul tells us the same thing: (God) will render to each one according to his deeds eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality (Rom 2:6-7)

Do you love Jesus? I believe you do.

Jesus said: “If you love Me, keep My commandments." (Jhn 14:15)
It is impossible to keep his commandments without actually DOING the things he said to do.

James and Paul and Jesus all say the same thing: We will NOT be justified if our faith is not accompanied by our good works which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. (Eph 2:10)

No one will be justified by works of the law (Gal 2:16) but James and Paul and Jesus are not talking about works of the Law when they tell us that we will be judged by our works. They are talking about the good works of love and mercy by which we imitate our Father.

Mat 25:34-36 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, "Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me."

Mat 25:41-43 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, "Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels, for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me."

Mat 25:46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

So, do you think you'll get by if you tell the LORD God that you believed so you weren't required to show any mercy?
No! Of course you don't. You know better than that.

We are ambassadors of Christ.
We represent His Kingdom.
We represent the King.
We are to be like our King in every way possible.
And the most prominent character of our King is His Mercy.
In order to show mercy, you have to DO something merciful.

So if you say, "I'm saved by may faith alone without works." then I say, "Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works." (Jas 2:18b)

The fact is; you can not show your faith except by the works that you do.
And your works are going to be the evidence of your faith at the judgment.

 

[stovebolts]

hello StoveBolts, dirtfarmer here

When make the statement "who gets to be justified", that seems to imply works. No one "gets to be justified". Justification comes because of faith in Christ without works.

Hi dirtfarmer.
Who gets to have faith in Christ? How does faith come about in your view?

 

[dirtfarmer]

That is a very poor excuse to dismiss the word of God. The Church kept his letter in the Canon of scripture because it was written TO THE CHURCH so the idea that it is only for Jews is utter nonsense.

If you think you will enter the kingdom of heaven without any good works you are in for a very big disappointment.

Jesus said at Jhn 5:26-29
For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which
all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—
those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,
and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

To fail to do what Jesus commanded is to do evil, by the way.

Jesus said that, when He comes to judge mankind, he will separate the righteous from the wicked according to what they did or did not do. (Mat 25:31-46)

He also said to "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven." (Mat 5:16) The light He wants you to shine is your good works.

Faith without works is dead. (Jas 2:20)
Dead things do not produce life: not earthly life and not eternal life.

And Paul tells us the same thing: (God) will render to each one according to his deeds eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality (Rom 2:6-7)

Do you love Jesus? I believe you do.

Jesus said: “If you love Me, keep My commandments." (Jhn 14:15)
It is impossible to keep his commandments without actually DOING the things he said to do.

James and Paul and Jesus all say the same thing: We will NOT be justified if our faith is not accompanied by our good works which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. (Eph 2:10)

No one will be justified by works of the law (Gal 2:16) but James and Paul and Jesus are not talking about works of the Law when they tell us that we will be judged by our works. They are talking about the good works of love and mercy by which we imitate our Father.

Mat 25:34-36 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, "Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me."

Mat 25:41-43 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, "Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels, for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me."

Mat 25:46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

So, do you think you'll get by if you tell the LORD God that you believed so you weren't required to show any mercy?
No! Of course you don't. You know better than that.

We are ambassadors of Christ.
We represent His Kingdom.
We represent the King.
We are to be like our King in every way possible.
And the most prominent character of our King is His Mercy.
In order to show mercy, you have to DO something merciful.

So if you say, "I'm saved by may faith alone without works." then I say, "Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works." (Jas 2:18b)

The fact is; you can not show your faith except by the works that you do.
And your works are going to be the evidence of your faith at the judgment.

hello Jim Parker, dirtfarmer here

Thanks for your reply.

One question; Is Jesus your king or are we, the believers, part of the body of Christ?

 

[dirtfarmer]

Hi dirtfarmer.
Who gets to have faith in Christ? How does faith come about in your view?

hello StoveBolts, dirtfarmer here

Romans 6:23 states that eternal life is a gift of God given through Jesus Christ. So, if eternal life is a gift, then what work do we do to receive that gift?
John 5:24 states," Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that heareth my word and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."
John 6:29, "Jesus answered and said, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom I have sent."
The "work" that we must do to be saved is believe what God said.

 

[Jim Parker]

One question; Is Jesus your king or are we, the believers, part of the body of Christ?

Both.

 

[Jim Parker]

Romans 6:23 states that eternal life is a gift of God given through Jesus Christ. So, if eternal life is a gift, then what work do we do to receive that gift?
John 5:24 states," Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that heareth my word and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."
John 6:29, "Jesus answered and said, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom I have sent."
The "work" that we must do to be saved is believe what God said.

If you believe that Jesus is who He dais HE is then you will obey his command to do good works.

Belief without the works that demonstrate your belief is fraud.

 

[stovebolts]

hello StoveBolts, dirtfarmer here

Romans 6:23 states that eternal life is a gift of God given through Jesus Christ. So, if eternal life is a gift, then what work do we do to receive that gift?
John 5:24 states," Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that heareth my word and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."
John 6:29, "Jesus answered and said, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom I have sent."
The "work" that we must do to be saved is believe what God said.

Ok, I'm with you so far, but here is the paradox I see you presenting.

We understand that salvation is a gift and nothing we do can earn our salvation. But this grace is through faith, and that faith comes through the hearing of Gods word the way I understand it as the Holy Spirit brings us toward God and repentance through a contrite heart.

I surmise that salvation is extended to all, and it is for those who believe that bear His good works through us.

Works is not a dirty word, and we ought not think that works has nothing to do with our salvation, because it does because we are His workmanship and we ought to be proud that we are living into His way for us.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, we shouldnt get the idea that we are better than others or that we deserve salvation because of the good works God is doing through us. It's a gift, and we need to be mindful so we dont become conceited, or arrogant and start taking Gods glory as our own.

Thoughts?

 

[gr8grace3]

Works have no part in justification, that is all by grace. It is sanctification that has works. After we are justified by grace we are a new creation and were created in Christ Jesus unto good works.

Amen. And those 'good' works are DIVINE good works. Not human good(which is evil in the sight of the Lord) works. And it takes bible doctrine, His mind and APPLYING it to produce these divine good works. If we are still at the starting gates and think works have something to do with our justification...........they are just human good/worthless,useless works/evil.

There are no works that can justify, but without works, one cannot be sanctified.

Spot on.

 

[ezra]

works follows salvation works does not save us . for the life of , i will never understand all the whatever on wants to call it . about works we will have works in our life .which can be from praying for someone to giving a cup of Cold water .. its saved by grace through faith not of works ....
Romans 3:24 King James Version (KJV)
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Romans 3:28 King James Version (KJV)
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 5:9 King James Version (KJV)
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

justified==means declared not guilty . not sure of what dirt farmer is meaning . a christian can not escape works

 

[gr8grace3]

works follows salvation

Eph 2:9-10. Works may or might follow after salvation.

God has a precise plan as how to live the spiritual life and how to produce DIVINE good after we are saved. And It comes from a steady inculcation of His word/mind and applying it. Anyone who doesn't study His mind(lazy believers) or cannot study His mind(mentally retarded/death bed conversions/children/persecuted believers who don't have access to His word) may not produce divine good works. But still saved.

 

[stovebolts]

Eph 2:9-10. Works may or might follow after salvation.

God has a precise plan as how to live the spiritual life and how to produce DIVINE good after we are saved. And It comes from a steady inculcation of His word/mind and applying it. Anyone who doesn't study His mind(lazy believers) or cannot study His mind(mentally retarded/death bed conversions/children/persecuted believers who don't have access to His word) may not produce divine good works. But still saved.

Give me an example of a Divine good work and a regular old work.

I mean, if I am compassionate toward another in need and relieve their suffering and I do not know the Lord, how is that work evil if I dont even care about God and salvation, yet i have compassion toward another?

On the other hand, if i am a saved born again Christian, and i lack compassion toward those in need and only give out of my wealth, do we then contribute what little we do as Gods divine works through us?

 

[ezra]

Works may or might follow after salvation.

works follows salvation baptism could be considered a work
Ephesians 2:10 King James Version (KJV)
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus " unto good works, " which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
matthew 25:35 King James Version (KJV) ---[WORKS}
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

 

[stovebolts]

works follows salvation baptism could be considered a work
Ephesians 2:10 King James Version (KJV)
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus " unto good works, " which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
matthew 25:35 King James Version (KJV) ---[WORKS}
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

It has been my experience that those who view baptism as a work dont truly understand baptism. On the other side, there are those who say if your not baptized, your not saved. It's a shame and reminds me of politics of the day where everyone has polar opposite views and crave the argument more than seeking truth.

 

[ezra]

It has been my experience that those who view baptism as a work dont truly understand baptism. On the other side, there are those who say if your not baptized, your not saved. It's a shame and reminds me of politics of the day where everyone has polar opposite views and crave the argument more than seeking truth.

i fully understand baptism and it does not save us baptism is following Jesus .we go to the watery Grace (symbolic only) we are buried under the water . we arise resurrected (symbolic ) i this among some of the baptist they want numbers in baptism... one should not rush into baptism there should be a teaching on it first. so the candidate understands... i want to see numbers on conversion . good grief some even think you have to be baptized into the church name. that is not a work this is why i say baptism could be considered a work... depending on how one looks at it... i know folks if asked of they are saved. well i was baptized at such and such time////

 

[dirtfarmer]

Both.

hello Jim Parker, dirtfarmer here

Please explain how he can be both. Scripture states we are "heirs" of God and "co-heirs" with Jesus Christ. How can we be "co-heirs"with Christ and still be subjects in his kingdom?