dirtfarmer here

[dirtfarmer]

Ok, I'm with you so far, but here is the paradox I see you presenting.

We understand that salvation is a gift and nothing we do can earn our salvation. But this grace is through faith, and that faith comes through the hearing of Gods word the way I understand it as the Holy Spirit brings us toward God and repentance through a contrite heart.

I surmise that salvation is extended to all, and it is for those who believe that bear His good works through us.

Works is not a dirty word, and we ought not think that works has nothing to do with our salvation, because it does because we are His workmanship and we ought to be proud that we are living into His way for us.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, we shouldnt get the idea that we are better than others or that we deserve salvation because of the good works God is doing through us. It's a gift, and we need to be mindful so we dont become conceited, or arrogant and start taking Gods glory as our own.

Thoughts?

hello StoveBolts, dirtfarmer here

It is hard to grasp but read carefully Ephesians 2:10. It is stated "Created in Christ Jesus unto good works" and the last phrase of that verse doesn't say that we are to do good works, but, "that we should walk in them".
If I walk in light am I "doing" or creating light? If I do good works then I am creating good works, but if I walk in the good works that were created in Christ Jesus, I am only walking in those works that Christ does.

It is my belief that all "good works" come from God, not man. Man's good works "are as filthy rags" in God's sight.

 

[dirtfarmer]

It has been my experience that those who view baptism as a work dont truly understand baptism. On the other side, there are those who say if your not baptized, your not saved. It's a shame and reminds me of politics of the day where everyone has polar opposite views and crave the argument more than seeking truth.

hello StoveBolts, dirtfarmer here

What was John told: You baptize with water but there is one that is greater than you and he will baptize with the Spirit. It is my belief that all water baptism does is gets a person wet.

I understand that most are going to disagree with that statement.

It all comes down to this: Does a person receive salvation the moment that the Spirit places them into the body of Christ? When does the Spirit place a person into the body of Christ? the moment they believe or the moment they are water baptized?

There is no room for discussion. Water baptism cannot place you into the body of Christ. It takes the baptism of the Spirit to place you into the body of Christ and that happens the moment that you believe that Christ died in your place.

 

[dirtfarmer]

If you believe that Jesus is who He dais HE is then you will obey his command to do good works.

Belief without the works that demonstrate your belief is fraud.

hello Jim Parker, dirtfarmer here

As I have stated before, God doesn't need to see works to determine if you are saved, He looks on mans heart. It is men the need to see works that demonstrate your belief.

 

[dirtfarmer]

dirtfarmer here

I will make this statement before someone says that water baptism shows the world of your belief. But, I ask this question ; " Was the world at your baptism"?
It is my belief that the greatest witness to the world is the changed life of the believer.
1. You ran with the wild bunch, but after salvation you don't.
2. You used to use foul language, but after salvation you don't
3. You griped and complained about the way the world was unfair in the way it treats you, but after salvation you don't. You understand that if they persecuted your savior, they will you also.
4. You have joy, even in the midst of trials and troubles. Happiness depends on happenings that occur about every 6 months, but joy is everlasting and depends on knowing the Lord.
5. You don't fear death any more. You understand that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

 

[Conqueror]

Works have no part in justification, that is all by grace. It is sanctification that has works. After we are justified by grace we are a new creation and were created in Christ Jesus unto good works.
There are no works that can justify, but without works, one cannot be sanctified.

The process of sanctification - discipleship produces good works.
Therefore believers are being sanctified without works.



.

 

[Conqueror]

So what do I do with this bit of the word of God?
Jas 2:24 ... a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

James preaches to be a doer of the word (Jas 1:23),
but no one can do the righteousness of Christ which comes by faith.

Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers (false apostles)
also transform themselves into ministers of DOING WHAT IS RIGHT,
whose end will be according to their WORKS (2 Cor 11:13-15).

It is important to realise that apostles, who come first outrank any others (1 Cor 12:28, Eph 4:11)
and that their apostolic word of God binds on earth as it does in heaven (Mat 16:19).


,

 

[Conqueror]

If you believe that Jesus is who He dais HE is then you will obey his command to do good works.

Belief without the works that demonstrate your belief is fraud.

Justification is by faith alone.

The process of sanctification - discipleship doesn't immediately
reveal the will of the Father and the new believer
needs to be equipped for that task.

Faith in Christ isn't a fraud until works happen.

James refers to that faith in Christ as a "dead faith" (James 2:17),
but doesn't explain how an initial "dead faith"
can possibly lead to works.



,

 

[Jim Parker]

Please explain how he can be both. Scripture states we are "heirs" of God and "co-heirs" with Jesus Christ. How can we be "co-heirs"with Christ and still be subjects in his kingdom?

Jesus is the "Firstborn over all creation." (Col 1:15)
Jesus has preeminence over all of creation. We are subject to Jesus in the same way that any prince is subject to the king.

 

[Jim Parker]

As I have stated before, God doesn't need to see works to determine if you are saved, He looks on mans heart.

That statement is meaningless.
It has nothing to do with what God "needs."
If you believe then you will act as if you believe and do the good work sthat God COMMANDED you to do.
If you do not do the good works which God COMMANDED you to do then He is not your LORD.
Faith without good works is a false faith and it will not save anyone.

It is men the need to see works that demonstrate your belief.

Jesus rebuked the scribes and pharisees because they did their good works for everyone to see how righteous they were. He called the hypocrites.
Mat 23:2-5 ...The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do. For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. But all their works they do to be seen by men.


Mat 23:27-28 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness. Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

So now you are saying that God wants us to do good works to to show men what good believer we are???

 

[Jim Parker]

Justification is by faith alone.

The process of sanctification - discipleship doesn't immediately
reveal the will of the Father and the new believer
needs to be equipped for that task.

Faith in Christ isn't a fraud until works happen.

James refers to that faith in Christ as a "dead faith" (James 2:17),
but doesn't explain how an initial "dead faith" can possibly lead to works.

Pleas state your point.
What am I to understand from what you have posted?

 

[Jim Parker]

James preaches to be a doer of the word (Jas 1:23),
but no one can do the righteousness of Christ which comes by faith.

What does "do the righteousness of Christ" mean?

Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers (false apostles)
also transform themselves into ministers of DOING WHAT IS RIGHT,
whose end will be according to their WORKS (2 Cor 11:13-15).

2Co 11:12-13 But what I do, I will also continue to do, that I may cut off the opportunity from those who desire an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in the things of which they boast. For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ.

In these 2 verses, Paul is talking about false teachers.

2Co 11:1415 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.
In these two verses, Paul identifies the false teachers as ministers of Satan.

What is it you want me to understand about those verses? Your post is not clear.

It is important to realise that apostles, who come first outrank any others (1 Cor 12:28, Eph 4:11) and that their apostolic word of God binds on earth as it does in heaven (Mat 16:19).

How does that statement relate to the topic under discussion?

The Roman Canon will be threshed in the harvest. Christendom to be divided into those who remain intoxicated on tares or have a pure mind to recall only foundational prophets and apostles (2 Pet 3:1-2)

I have no idea what you are talking about.
Please clarify.

 

[Conqueror]

hello Jim Parker, dirtfarmer here

Please explain how he can be both. Scripture states we are "heirs" of God and "co-heirs" with Jesus Christ. How can we be "co-heirs"with Christ and still be subjects in his kingdom?

Co-heirs are subject to being in Christ.

 

[Conqueror]

James preaches to be a doer of the word (Jas 1:23),
but no one can do the righteousness of Christ which comes by faith.

What does "do the righteousness of Christ" mean?

This is the name by which he will be called:
The LORD Our Righteousness (Jer 23:6).

That righteousness should have been sought as a priority (Mat 6:33).

Christianity is a farce without being obedient
to what Jesus considers to be important.


.

 

[Conqueror]

Justification is by faith alone.

The process of sanctification - discipleship doesn't immediately
reveal the will of the Father and the new believer
needs to be equipped for that task.

Faith in Christ isn't a fraud until works happen.

James refers to that faith in Christ as a "dead faith" (James 2:17),
but doesn't explain how an initial "dead faith"
can possibly lead to works.

Pleas state your point.
What am I to understand from what you have posted?

It should be self explanatory to those who are justified by faith.



.

 

[Jim Parker]

Christianity is a farce without being obedient
to what Jesus considers to be important.

Yeah, and.....?

 

[Jim Parker]

It should be self explanatory to those who are justified by faith.

OK
You are unable to clarify what you mean.
No problem.

 

[tdidymas]

Works have no part in justification, that is all by grace. It is sanctification that has works. After we are justified by grace we are a new creation and were created in Christ Jesus unto good works.
There are no works that can justify, but without works, one cannot be sanctified.

We are sanctified by the same faith that we are justified by. God does the work of sanctification the same as He does the work of justification, and it is through the same faith that we have in Christ the Redeemer. Therefore, your idea that sanctification is by works is fundamentally flawed, since your language has works as a logical precedent for santification. The works that we do merely show what kind of tree we are, and what kind of treasure we hold in our hearts.

IOW, we don't have faith in Christ alone separated from (and without) being sanctified by the Spirit. The grace of God doesn't work that way. God works in us His will, which means that grace includes both justification and sanctification. The difference is that justification in the believer is a past event, and santification is an ongoing process.
TD

 

[WIP]

hello StoveBolts, dirtfarmer here

It is hard to grasp but read carefully Ephesians 2:10. It is stated "Created in Christ Jesus unto good works" and the last phrase of that verse doesn't say that we are to do good works, but, "that we should walk in them".
If I walk in light am I "doing" or creating light? If I do good works then I am creating good works, but if I walk in the good works that were created in Christ Jesus, I am only walking in those works that Christ does.

It is my belief that all "good works" come from God, not man. Man's good works "are as filthy rags" in God's sight.

Hello, dirtfarmer. Could you expand on this a little to help me understand the difference between walking in good works and doing good works? Maybe an example would help?

 

[WIP]

What was John told: You baptize with water but there is one that is greater than you and he will baptize with the Spirit. It is my belief that all water baptism does is gets a person wet.

Do you think that Jesus ordered John to baptize Him just to get Him wet?

 

[stovebolts]

hello StoveBolts, dirtfarmer here

It is hard to grasp but read carefully Ephesians 2:10. It is stated "Created in Christ Jesus unto good works" and the last phrase of that verse doesn't say that we are to do good works, but, "that we should walk in them".
If I walk in light am I "doing" or creating light? If I do good works then I am creating good works, but if I walk in the good works that were created in Christ Jesus, I am only walking in those works that Christ does.

It is my belief that all "good works" come from God, not man. Man's good works "are as filthy rags" in God's sight.

Hi dirtfarmer.
I dont want to loose the forest by looking too close at the trees, and I fear that's what's starting to occur. Btw, I agree with your above reply.

Earlier I asked, "who gets faith" as it pertains to "works in Christ".

To be clear, this is what I am trying to get you to parse.

What is the difference between a follower of Christ who shows compassion toward another who is suffering verses let's say an athiest who shows compassion toward another who is suffering. Both relieve the suffering.

Would you say then that even pagans can walk in Gods word by doing what Jesus did and we call these Godly works, prepared in advance?