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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Election question.
- Thread starter Dave...
- Start date
Yes, because it has to be known who the elect are. And it is not what has been taught through the centuries.
See Isaiah 45:4.
The true gospel cannot be understood, imo, unless one realizes this. And yes it is here:
1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1 Corinthians 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
1 Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
We know primarily where this is: Isaiah 53; Israel being the context.
1 Corinthians 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Many people do not know where this is. Hosea 6:2. Context? Israel...
So heed Yahweh's advice:
Isaiah 56:3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to YHWH, speak, saying, YHWH hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.
See Isaiah 45:4.
The true gospel cannot be understood, imo, unless one realizes this. And yes it is here:
1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1 Corinthians 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
1 Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
We know primarily where this is: Isaiah 53; Israel being the context.
1 Corinthians 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Many people do not know where this is. Hosea 6:2. Context? Israel...
So heed Yahweh's advice:
Isaiah 56:3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to YHWH, speak, saying, YHWH hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.
L
Lyric's Dad
Guest
No.Dave... said:
Christ said that it is faith in Him that saves. I think we have a real problem in the church in that we venerate the words of Paul over Christ. Seems everyone is trying to make Christs Gospels align with Pauls epistles instead of the other way around.
K
Klee shay
Guest
I agree with Lyric's Dad here. Christ is mankind's salvation and believing in what God sent him to do.
W
Windozer
Guest
Dave... said:
No.
And I have no difficultly understanding that the words of Paul are in agreement with the words of Jesus. For me there is no conflict between the two. But perhaps someones interpretation can cause some problems. but that has not been my experience.
F
farley
Guest
Yes.
Not for everyone, but some may end up being a Calvinist if they don't properly divide election.
In Christ,
farley
Not for everyone, but some may end up being a Calvinist if they don't properly divide election.
In Christ,
farley
“Is understanding election essential in understanding the true Gospel?â€Â
The Gospel is the good news that Christ died for our sins, understanding election is essential to coming to grips with grace, in that His propitiation in our stead made election possible. Yet, Christ did not die for those He did not purpose to save, because no one can come to Christ, unless the Father draws him (John 6:44) and all the Father draws will come. Regeneration through the Holy Spirit precedes faith and is efficacious (Eph. 2:1-9).So, election are those God before the foundation of the earth, chose to love and save by grace (the Cross). This was done for no other purpose than His good pleasure in adopting us as His own Eph. 1:1-6).
Bubba
The Gospel is the good news that Christ died for our sins, understanding election is essential to coming to grips with grace, in that His propitiation in our stead made election possible. Yet, Christ did not die for those He did not purpose to save, because no one can come to Christ, unless the Father draws him (John 6:44) and all the Father draws will come. Regeneration through the Holy Spirit precedes faith and is efficacious (Eph. 2:1-9).So, election are those God before the foundation of the earth, chose to love and save by grace (the Cross). This was done for no other purpose than His good pleasure in adopting us as His own Eph. 1:1-6).
Bubba
F
farley
Guest
Bubba,
I can see that our views differ on the issue of election, as well as many others, probably. But, my studying has taught me that the elect are the nation of Israel.
They were/are God's chosen people! They had God's written word, as well as prophets, to guide them through this world for thousands of years, before their rejection of the Messiah allowed the Gentile world to share the hope of salvation with them.
In Christ,
farley
I can see that our views differ on the issue of election, as well as many others, probably. But, my studying has taught me that the elect are the nation of Israel.
They were/are God's chosen people! They had God's written word, as well as prophets, to guide them through this world for thousands of years, before their rejection of the Messiah allowed the Gentile world to share the hope of salvation with them.
In Christ,
farley
Farley,
On a different thread I posted Romans 9:1-24 and I honestly believe if one would set aside all presuppositions and simply ask what is the author trying to say, he or she will come to the conclusion that these verses are about individuals not a nation. Consider also that verse 24 includes the Gentiles in the sovereign choice of God.
In His love, Bubba
On a different thread I posted Romans 9:1-24 and I honestly believe if one would set aside all presuppositions and simply ask what is the author trying to say, he or she will come to the conclusion that these verses are about individuals not a nation. Consider also that verse 24 includes the Gentiles in the sovereign choice of God.
In His love, Bubba
A
Asaph
Guest
Gal 3:6-9
6 just as Abraham "believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." 7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.
NKJV
6 just as Abraham "believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." 7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.
NKJV
B
bbas 64
Guest
Good Day, Asaph
I just wanted to say HI to you as it has been a while, hope you are doing well.
In Him,
Bill (bbas 64)
I just wanted to say HI to you as it has been a while, hope you are doing well.
In Him,
Bill (bbas 64)
L
Lyric's Dad
Guest
LOL!farley said:
F
farley
Guest
Bubba,
Here is a question for those who believe election per Calvin is Biblical.
BTW, i've noticed that those who do not believe election, as Calvinist's believe, also almost always have a very different view of the Sovereignty of God than those who do. I believe that the two, election, and God's sovereignty are directly related and one does affect the other. Would it be enough to affect the gospel in a way that makes it another gospel?
Example.
John 15:5 5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
A theoretical reply. But Lord, I chose you. This is my gift to you, that I chose you myself, without any divine intervention.
1 Corinthians 4:7 7 For who makes you differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive? Now if you did indeed receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?
A theoretical reply. I can't believe that, Lord, it was me who chose to follow you all by myself. I will not believe that, but I still love you.
How much trouble is this guy in?
BTW, i've noticed that those who do not believe election, as Calvinist's believe, also almost always have a very different view of the Sovereignty of God than those who do. I believe that the two, election, and God's sovereignty are directly related and one does affect the other. Would it be enough to affect the gospel in a way that makes it another gospel?
Example.
John 15:5 5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
A theoretical reply. But Lord, I chose you. This is my gift to you, that I chose you myself, without any divine intervention.
1 Corinthians 4:7 7 For who makes you differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive? Now if you did indeed receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?
A theoretical reply. I can't believe that, Lord, it was me who chose to follow you all by myself. I will not believe that, but I still love you.
How much trouble is this guy in?
Drew
Member
This particular guy is indeed in a lot of trouble. However, this guy is an extreme caricature of a much more reasonable position, namely that people do play a tiny role in their own salvation - that of merely accepting a gift. God still does 99.99999% of the "work". And I agree with you that if man has any free will agency role in the world at all, then God's sovereignty is diminished accordingly.Dave... said:
I have no trouble reconciling the idea that humans make free will decisions to accept the gift of salvation - this entails a negliglible reduction of God's sovereignty. I am not sure what justification one has to justify a kind of "sovereignty on steroids" from the highly metaphorical and general claims about the sovereignty of God as found in the Scriptures.
I am coming to think that a lot of the problems we all have about these issues have a lot to do with the fundamental limitations of language as a mechanism for conveying meaning, coupled with a general lack of knowledge of how the Biblical writers understood the words they used. I think we need to ask ourselves if we are really reading the words as if they were written by a 21st century westerner. This goes for "both sides" of this and other issues.
Farley,
Please check out this article, which I believes will help you see that individuals are the predominant subject of election in Romans 9.
Bubba
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/8449/rom.html
Please check out this article, which I believes will help you see that individuals are the predominant subject of election in Romans 9.
Bubba
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/8449/rom.html
H
Hawkanomics
Guest
To better understand the sovereignty of God... and whether election plays a role into the true gospel, we need to understand that a Creator who made all beings, whether we are vessels of destruction or vessels of mercy (as it is put by Paul), made us so that HIS plan could become of itself. He was not wrong in ordaining that there be sin, or ordaining that some would go to hell, and some would go to heaven. Because without evil, there is no concept of what is good. God would have no glory, if there were no such thing as sin and the devil. Because we, as humans, would know no different than Him, so we would not fully appreciate his glory. God wanted all of his attributes to be shown, which is why he ordained that some would perish and some would live. Without some pershing, where is our God of Wrath? Without some living eternally, where is our God of Mercy? And without God being in complete control of every event that happens, and every choice man makes, where is our Sovereign God of Complete control?
So, in short, I would like to claim that it is not only nessescary to the true Gospel to understand God in his Sovereignty, but it is essential to understanding the true nature of God. The bible says we need no faith except that of a mustard seed. We do not need incredible faith, because we in our human flesh cannot create faith out of nothing. Instead, we need a God that is that much bigger, a God so sovereign and in such complete dominance of everything, that he is more real to us than anything else, and in that, we do not require faith except in the amount of a mustard seed.
Hope it helped.
So, in short, I would like to claim that it is not only nessescary to the true Gospel to understand God in his Sovereignty, but it is essential to understanding the true nature of God. The bible says we need no faith except that of a mustard seed. We do not need incredible faith, because we in our human flesh cannot create faith out of nothing. Instead, we need a God that is that much bigger, a God so sovereign and in such complete dominance of everything, that he is more real to us than anything else, and in that, we do not require faith except in the amount of a mustard seed.
Hope it helped.
I think most of you that answered "no" confused the question. He didn't ask whether election was essential in being saved. He said understanding the true gospel.
You can understand one aspect of the gospel (the Messiah's death part for sins) but this is not all the gospel entails. It becomes "incomplete". Just a cheap imitation when this is all you know.
Not near. But I'll check out what you said in that thread.
No, if we continue from verse 24, we see that he quotes directly from Hosea, prophet to the northern kingdom. And if we go and read Hosea chapter one, we see that passage is in direct reference to Ephraim Israel who were scattered out in the nations and called Lo-Ami meaning "not my people".
Paul directly applies this verse to the Romans as well as Isaiah 1:9 and other Isaiah passages. These verses directly apply to Ephraim Israel in the nations living, resembling, and becoming the "fullness of the nations/gentiles" (Genesis 48:19; Romans 11:25).
Nothing about election (in terms of predestination for salvation of individuals) can be found in this passage. Not because Isaac or Jacob or the Pharaoh of Egypt during Moses' time are mentioned. There is a specific reason they are mentioned. And it is not to give an example of election as far as individuals' salvation is concerned.
And nothing is about "gentiles" (pagan nations) being also part of the "sovereign choice of God". Not one thing.
Farley is right and there is overwhelming evidence for this. While I could site dozens of verses, I feel the one I originally posed needs to be repeated to make it perfectly clear:
Isaiah 45:4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
We either choose to ignore this direct statement or we reject it.
You can understand one aspect of the gospel (the Messiah's death part for sins) but this is not all the gospel entails. It becomes "incomplete". Just a cheap imitation when this is all you know.
Bubba said:
Not near. But I'll check out what you said in that thread.
No, if we continue from verse 24, we see that he quotes directly from Hosea, prophet to the northern kingdom. And if we go and read Hosea chapter one, we see that passage is in direct reference to Ephraim Israel who were scattered out in the nations and called Lo-Ami meaning "not my people".
Paul directly applies this verse to the Romans as well as Isaiah 1:9 and other Isaiah passages. These verses directly apply to Ephraim Israel in the nations living, resembling, and becoming the "fullness of the nations/gentiles" (Genesis 48:19; Romans 11:25).
Nothing about election (in terms of predestination for salvation of individuals) can be found in this passage. Not because Isaac or Jacob or the Pharaoh of Egypt during Moses' time are mentioned. There is a specific reason they are mentioned. And it is not to give an example of election as far as individuals' salvation is concerned.
And nothing is about "gentiles" (pagan nations) being also part of the "sovereign choice of God". Not one thing.
Farley is right and there is overwhelming evidence for this. While I could site dozens of verses, I feel the one I originally posed needs to be repeated to make it perfectly clear:
Isaiah 45:4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
We either choose to ignore this direct statement or we reject it.