Election question.

[DivineNames]

Sure, people can end up in an enslaved state where they have no choice but are still responsible and therefore accountable. But this can only occur if somewhere in the causal chain that lead to this state, a free will choice was made to go down a certain path, when other "righteous" alternatives were available to them.

Yeah. If we assume that we are born into a state of sin, it seems that a person could perhaps be responsible for particular instances of sin, (to a certain extent?), but they could hardly be held responsible for being a sinner in general. If we have no choice but to be a sinner (in general), and no way out from this state, we couldn't really be very responsible for our sins. Punishing people would be absurd.

 

[mutzrein]

Yeah. If we assume that we are born into a state of sin, it seems that a person could perhaps be responsible for particular instances of sin, (to a certain extent?), but they could hardly be held responsible for being a sinner in general. If we have no choice but to be a sinner (in general), and no way out from this state, we couldn't really be very responsible for our sins. Punishing people would be absurd.

I understand how you can see this as being absurd but isn't this what Christendom in general believes - that man is born in a sinful state and but for the grace of God he is condemned to eternal punishment?

What do you think?

 

[DivineNames]

I understand how you can see this as being absurd but isn't this what Christendom in general believes - that man is born in a sinful state and but for the grace of God he is condemned to eternal punishment?

What do you think?

There is a significant issue here- whether someone can freely choose to accept divine grace. Christians disagree about this question.

 

[mutzrein]

I understand how you can see this as being absurd but isn't this what Christendom in general believes - that man is born in a sinful state and but for the grace of God he is condemned to eternal punishment?

What do you think?

There is a significant issue here- whether someone can freely choose to accept divine grace. Christians disagree about this question.

And indeed they do. So I take it you disagree with that stance then. That's why I asked 'what do you think?'
I'm not looking for a thesis - just an idea what you think - or is this one of these things that cannot be debated on this board?

Thanks

 

[Geo]

I like to say something regarding : "to freely choose"

If you take this away from creation, what you get is "production"

Beings that have the nature of products that will be programmed
by the master programmer with software instructions.
If God had desired that he could have had it the first week already.

We are not products, we are enabled to receive and choose.
That's the difference between creation and production.

Another hint: Necessity of faith. Why is faith required, when a
fix preset would have done the job much faster (and undeleteable).
Exactly! God doesn't desire robots with implants. He desires
the Holy Spirit indwelling and a actively cooperating humanity.

The opposite to pre-programmed presets is active cooperation
through choices of the recipients that can accept or refuse teaching
and the indwelling of the holy spirit. We need to be enabled to make a
choice, yes, and we are, we always respond with yes or no to anything.

If you ever gave a job to other people you let the applicants run and
watch how they relate to your instructions and enablement,
look at their yes's and no's and from that the 'election' question
gets answered about who qualifies for the job. In God's case of
course he desires more than workers, he desire sons & daughters,
that's why this comparision is weak, but it's a small hint.

 

[mutzrein]

I like to say something regarding : "to freely choose"

If you take this away from creation, what you get is "production"

Beings that have the nature of products that will be programmed
by the master programmer with software instructions.
If God had desired that he could have had it the first week already.

We are not products, we are enabled to receive and choose.
That's the difference between creation and production.

Another hint: Necessity of faith. Why is faith required, when a
fix preset would have done the job much faster (and undeleteable).
Exactly! God doesn't desire robots with implants. He desires
the Holy Spirit indwelling and a actively cooperating humanity.

The opposite to pre-programmed presets is active cooperation
through choices of the recipients that can accept or refuse teaching
and the indwelling of the holy spirit. We need to be enabled to make a
choice, yes, and we are, we always respond with yes or no to anything.

If you ever gave a job to other people you let the applicants run and
watch how they relate to your instructions and enablement,
look at their yes's and no's and from that the 'election' question
gets answered about who qualifies for the job. In God's case of
course he desires more than workers, he desire sons & daughters,
that's why this comparision is weak, but it's a small hint.

Well, if you are talking about sons and daughters, I like your hint - so lets run with it. How does one become a son or daughter?

 

[Geo]

Well, if you want not only a simple answer, but something really
profound on it, download this MP3 and just listen, it's very good:

Sons and Daughters of God by Art Katz
Description: In Hebraic life, a son is not a son until a certain condition
is obtained before he ‘adopts’ him. And it is only sons and daughters
who are qualified to fulfill the Last Day’s purposes of God. Only they
have a single-eyed devotion to the will of the Father.
http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydo ... p?lid=3330

maybe we can discuss Art's view here, he is a mature brother that is never
satisfied with anything artifical or 'mere human understanding', he gets
to the meat of the matter.

 

[DivineNames]

And indeed they do. So I take it you disagree with that stance then. That's why I asked 'what do you think?'
I'm not looking for a thesis - just an idea what you think - or is this one of these things that cannot be debated on this board?

Thanks

I don't know what the Bible teaches on this point. To be honest, I suspect that the Bible may not possess a "clear and consistent" teaching.

 

[Geo]

I took a few notes while listening - characteristics of sonship:

maturity
authority to handle the Father's will, not given to babes
not implicit in birth, a process
for as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God
jealousy for righteouness
hatred for iniquity
given the oil of gladness because of it
not automatically obtained
brought into maturity through suffering
able to invoke blessing in prayer
sonship requirement for priesthood, not fleshly ability
detached from earthly identity (parents, country, race)
only resurrection life qualifies for sonship
resurrection life through death to natural self

 

[mutzrein]

And indeed they do. So I take it you disagree with that stance then. That's why I asked 'what do you think?'
I'm not looking for a thesis - just an idea what you think - or is this one of these things that cannot be debated on this board?

Thanks

I don't know what the Bible teaches on this point. To be honest, I suspect that the Bible may not possess a "clear and consistent" teaching.

OK we have mentioned a couple of things so I guess I need to ask for more clarity on what you are eluding to as far as biblical teaching is concerned.

I said, " . . . but isn't this what Christendom in general believes - that man is born in a sinful state and but for the grace of God he is condemned to eternal punishment?"

What were you talking about?
1. Whether man can freely choose to accept God's grace or
2. Whether man is condemned to eternal punishement (irrespective of whether God's grace is chosen or given)

Cheers

 

[mutzrein]

Well, if you want not only a simple answer, but something really
profound on it, download this MP3 and just listen, it's very good:

Sons and Daughters of God by Art Katz
Description: In Hebraic life, a son is not a son until a certain condition
is obtained before he ‘adopts’ him. And it is only sons and daughters
who are qualified to fulfill the Last Day’s purposes of God. Only they
have a single-eyed devotion to the will of the Father.
http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydo ... p?lid=3330

maybe we can discuss Art's view here, he is a mature brother that is never
satisfied with anything artifical or 'mere human understanding', he gets
to the meat of the matter.

Thanks Geo

I may do that when I get time. Actually I think I heard Art when he was here in NZ some years ago. He was well respected.

My question about becoming a son or daughter was really in regard to how it happens. i.e. being born again. Is that the way you see it?

 

[Geo]

Yes. you have to realize however no baby can remain in the state of being born.
there must be growth, God desires sons & daughters not babes.

P.S. Now that you mention it, I have been born again in Auckland NZ, and
shared a house with some people that went "nuts for katz" , yeah his love
for Jesus, authenticity and the holiness of God's Spirit are special.

 

[mutzrein]

Yes. you have to realize however no baby can remain in the state of being born.
there must be growth, God desires sons & daughters not babes.

P.S. Now that you mention it, I have been born again in Auckland NZ, and
shared a house with some people that went "nuts for katz" , yeah his love
for Jesus, authenticity and the holiness of God's Spirit are special.

Thanks Geo

I was really looking for your perspective on how one is born again, rather than the result - which is sons & daughters.

Thanks

 

[Imagican]

I guess, from the sound of it, this whole 'election' thing is just another way for 'some Christians' to feel 'special'.

We were commanded to 'run the race' as if we mean to 'win' it. That would seem to offer us 'choice'.

And of what possible purpose would it serve God or Christ for evangelism to exist at all if those that are 'to be saved' are already 'predestined' to this fate? Seems like an awful silly way to let those that are 'already' chosen know the 'truth'.

Perhaps a truth would be that God already 'knows' who will make 'what' choice, but to presume that we are created, (born), and God simply picks through us and decides who He will 'allow' to 'see' the truth, or that it was done from the beginning of creation, would eliminate the 'need' for evangelism altogether. if this stance were 'true' then what would be the purpose of even offering mankind the Word?

 

[mutzrein]

Well I would have thought that anyone who had received salvation by the grace of God would feel special. To think that the God who created the universe made it possible for me to be his son, when I had done nothing to deserve it, surely must be something that I stand in awe of.

And can you imagine a father saying to his son, I have brought you into this world, I have given you life and I’ve given you everything you need to run a good race. I know you are capable so there is no need to prove yourself. Just take it easy and everything will be OK.
Of course not, any responsible father would exhort his children to use the gifts and talents he has given them to ‘run the race.’ And being the children of our father, of course we make choices that will lead to reward or other wise. But surely this is not the issue is it?

 

[Imagican]

You have made an effort to 'twist' my words. If you didn't understand what I said the first time, let me clarify. My point was not 'feeling' special as far as 'being blessed', my point was placing themselves 'above' their brothers.

Now, let's follow your same line of reasoning. Can you imagine your father bringing you into the world only to tell you that the ONLY reason that he brought you into the world was to burn you with cigarettes, beat you with a 2X4, deny you any of his inheritance, and torture you to death.

I believe that those that feel thus must have found a 'different' God than the One that I know. Christ died for ALL men. Some will not accept the 'gift' offered, no doubt, but the gift is there for All regardless.

So, when the bible tells us to ask and we shall receive, knock and it shall be opened, these things were only written to those that have 'already' been chosen? This is just elitist theology.

So, God's not 'really' love, just love to those that He chooses? The rest He chooses to punish without being given a chance to offer their love in return? If this is the 'true' belief of many among us here, no wonder so many 'think' that they know 'everything'.

 

[mutzrein]

You have made an effort to 'twist' my words. If you didn't understand what I said the first time, let me clarify. My point was not 'feeling' special as far as 'being blessed', my point was placing themselves 'above' their brothers.

Now, let's follow your same line of reasoning. Can you imagine your father bringing you into the world only to tell you that the ONLY reason that he brought you into the world was to burn you with cigarettes, beat you with a 2X4, deny you any of his inheritance, and torture you to death.

I believe that those that feel thus must have found a 'different' God than the One that I know. Christ died for ALL men. Some will not accept the 'gift' offered, no doubt, but the gift is there for All regardless.

So, when the bible tells us to ask and we shall receive, knock and it shall be opened, these things were only written to those that have 'already' been chosen? This is just elitist theology.

So, God's not 'really' love, just love to those that He chooses? The rest He chooses to punish without being given a chance to offer their love in return? If this is the 'true' belief of many among us here, no wonder so many 'think' that they know 'everything'.

Thankyou for your gracious response and yes of course I understand more fully now that you have spelled that out. It wasn’t an effort on my part to twist your words so I’m sorry if that came across. It was the way I read your words that I wanted to respond to. Certainly any person who has received salvation by the grace of God must in my view be humbled by that fact, irrespective of whether they believe it to be God’s choosing or theirs.
Unfortunately, some who see it as all God’s doing, seem often to stand as the Pharisees did, thanking God for their elevated position and that they are not as these others – sinners. I shudder at the thought.

As far as your extension to my analogy is concerned I stand on a different premise so the conclusions are different.
But if I can lead onto that with this question, “Why would a person born of God be subject to the sort of torture and ultimate destruction that you describe?

Regards

 

[Geo]

Imagican, actually it removes responsibility and accountability
for our life to teach that everything is designed to happen.
It makes any choice, teaching or learning process unnecessary.

I found this perfectly expressed in two guys while travelling in
the East: They stand by the road side talking with each other
while a piece of rock that must have fallen from the hill visibly
endangers road traffic right next to them.
"Why don't we just lift it off the road?" one asks, the other
replies "If it would be Allah's will that we remove it from the
road, he wouldn't have placed it there in the first place".

You know what I mean, it's a matter of comprehension,
are we bystanders or is there anything that might be required.
I could drive this point into the absurd and ask "why was I born
on earth - and not directly into heaven?" Some are wasting their
time here for sure, but since nothing seems to be at stake, and
nobody truly can change their mind, why are the ones that follow
this line of thinking here? To testify about the fact? That's not
even enough storyline for a b-movie, let alone the quest for
sons of God.

 

[JM]

There’s a trend I noticed from those who deny the Biblical teaching of election, the attack always lacks Biblical exposition. If you read back a few pages I can’t help but notice the lack of Biblical evidence in supporting most of the posts. I see a lot of philosophy but not much theology.

Here’s what I believe in a nutshell: Those whom God hath predestinated unto Life, he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time, (a) effectually to call by his word, and Spirit, out of that state of sin, and death, in which they are by nature, to grace and Salvation (b) by Jesus Christ; inlightning their minds, spiritually, and savingly to (c) understand the things of God; taking away their (d) heart of stone, and giving unto them an heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his Almighty power determining them (e) to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come (f) most freely, being made willing by his Grace. God hath (a) Decreed in himself from all Eternity, by the most wise and holy Councel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things whatsoever comes to passe; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin, (b) nor hath fellowship with any therein, nor is violence offered to the will of the Creature, nor yet is the liberty, or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather (c) established, in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power, and faithfulness (d) in accomplishing his Decree. London Baptist Confession of Faith 1689

Can someone post a few scriptures and explain why these scriptures teach something contrary to what I believe? I’m not interested in human reasoning, just scripture.

Thanks.

 

[DivineNames]

Can someone post a few scriptures and explain why these scriptures teach something contrary to what I believe? I’m not interested in human reasoning, just scripture.

Perhaps you can't answer the "human reasoning" that has been given? Is your position completely irrational JM?