Eternal security or conditional security?

[FreeGrace]

No, no. I asked what is it about a natural, physical child birth that makes it so it is impossible to reverse it? Simple question. Just answer it.

I am still stunned by this question. And I DID answer it: "So, please explain the process of how one could become un-born after they have been born. I can't think of any way, but if there is a way, please share."

If it IS possible to un-born someone, that's news not only to me, but every human being in history. But since it seems you think it is possible, please explain how that would be.

Other than stuffing the person back into his/her mother, I cannot think of any way to reverse a birth. It's just preposterous to even think about such an idea.

It can be used as a non-OSAS passage.....just not all by itself. So, just stick to the point that you brought up about what holding fast the word of God means. I wanted to prevent you from evading the discussion and going off into how the Parable of the Sower isn't about OSAS. Now address the point I made from the passage that challenges your understanding of what 'holding fast' the word of God means.

The parable of the soils isn't about either OSAS or LOS. That was my only point, which, btw, wasn't brought up by me, but by you.

And I and others have already explained what "hold fast" means, but it seems someone's eyes/ears aren't in receptive mode.

And I just exegeted v.1 and 2 from 1 Cor 15. So please explain how any of that exegesis isn't correct.

 

[FreeGrace]

"4to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (1 Peter 1:4-5 NASB)
...but OSAS says you are protected by the power of God for the day of salvation WITHOUT FAITH.

No it doesn't. It says that once one receives eternal life, one WILL NEVER PERISH. PERIOD.

The Bible gives NO exceptions to that promise. And LOS doctrine hasn't provided any. Just assumptions.

That directly contradicts what Peter says. Now, do we listen to what OSAS says, or what the Bible says? The answer is obvious.

Jesus said that those He gives eternal life to WILL NEVER PERISH. I DO listen to what the Bible says.

The answer is definitely obvious.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I am still stunned by this question. And I DID answer it: "So, please explain the process of how one could become un-born after they have been born. I can't think of any way, but if there is a way, please share."

Listen carefully:
What aspect about a child being born makes it so that that birth can't be reversed?
Simple question. Just answer it. Or are you afraid to?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No it doesn't. It says that once one receives eternal life, one WILL NEVER PERISH. PERIOD.

The Bible gives NO exceptions to that promise. And LOS doctrine hasn't provided any. Just assumptions.

That's only part of the scriptures.
OSAS (purposely?) leaves out the rest of the counsel of scripture that says you have to retain the message by which you were first saved to have the promise of salvation and eternal life (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB). That passage of scripture (and others) are hardly 'just assumptions'. They are the plain word of God that OSAS either ignores or twists to serve it's own beliefs.

 

[FreeGrace]

Listen carefully:
What aspect about a child being born makes it so that that birth can't be reversed?
Simple question. Just answer it. Or are you afraid to?

There IS NO ANSWER. And NO FEAR. I asked how one can be un-born after they HAVE been born, and yet, there is still no answer.

Are you afraid to?

How does one reverse a birth?

 

[FreeGrace]

That's only part of the scriptures.
OSAS (purposely?) leaves out the rest of the counsel of scripture that says you have to retain the message by which you were first saved to have the promise of salvation and eternal life (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB).

First, the 2 verses of 1 Cor 15 have been exegeted to show that such an interpretation isn't what the verses mean.

Second, LOS doctrine fails to show any evidence that the sealing with the Holy Spirit is either:
1. only for some believers
2. can be broken before the day of redemption

What is clearly stated is that every believer is sealed. And the sealing is a promise for the day of redemption, which is a guarantee of eternal security.

That passage of scripture (and others) are hardly 'just assumptions'. They are the plain word of God that OSAS either ignores or twists to serve it's own beliefs.

The assumptions are that ANY verse teaches LOS.

The reality is that all the verses in the OP DO teach ES and OSAS. What do they teach, if not that?

 

[veryberry]

Freegrace, the passage says 'you are saved, if you hold fast the word I preached to you'. It does not say 'you are saved, if you possess eternal life'.

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

The word "saved" in this passage as nothing to do with justification. Justification was already determined in verse 1, pertaining to the gospel was preached, received, and is their standing.

The word "saved" is however in reference to the troubles that the Corinthians are going through, which is, that there is no resurrection. If they keep in memory the very gospel that was preached, received, and is their standing, then they would be "saved" from a troubled mind of the false accusation of there being no resurrection. The only way this false doctrine of there being no resurrection should be any trouble is, if they believed in vain.

This verse does not, in anyway, disprove eternal security.

 

[MarkT]

No it doesn't. It says that once one receives eternal life, one WILL NEVER PERISH. PERIOD.

The Bible gives NO exceptions to that promise. And LOS doctrine hasn't provided any. Just assumptions.


Jesus said that those He gives eternal life to WILL NEVER PERISH. I DO listen to what the Bible says.

The answer is definitely obvious.

He gives eternal life to his sheep. His sheep will never perish. So what? We're talking about those who fall away from the truth, not those who follow the truth. And also those who have swerved from the truth ( because they hate the truth ) and those who choose teachers for themselves to be conformed to the world, and those who follow false teachers and a different gospel. Were they ever saved to begin with? No.

You could say those who are really saved are always saved. You can indeed argue that everyone will fall away except those who are really saved. You can say everyone will fall away except his sheep. The believers who will say 'Lord, Lord' to him were never his sheep. Mt. 7:22 Those who fall away in the end are not his sheep. Mt. 24:10-24

So I would agree that those who fall away were never saved to begin with. So are those who will fall away his sheep? No. His sheep won't fall away. So if many will fall away, how can you call them his sheep? How can you say they are still saved if they were never saved to begin with?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The reality is that all the verses in the OP DO teach ES and OSAS. What do they teach, if not that?

They do teach that....but only for those who stay in the faith and remain in what they heard at first.
Read it again:

"24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.
25This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life.
God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. (1 John 2:23-25, 1 John 5:11-12 NASB)

See, the condition for abiding in the Son is that what you heard in the beginning remains in you. If you do not meet that condition for abiding in the Son (what you heard remains in you) then you won't have the Son, and if you don't have the Son then you don't have eternal life. Read it. The words are plain as day.

So we can plainly see that the promise of salvation/eternal life is for those who continue to believe, not for those who stop believing as OSAS claims.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

How does one reverse a birth?

Good question, how does one reverse a literal, physical birth?
You tell us what it is exactly that makes that impossible and we'll apply it to the spiritual birth and see if your analogy is perfect for illustrating how a spiritual birth can't be reversed either. I think that's fair. After all, it's your argument anyway, so you should be more than willing to examine any parallels you are sure exist between physical birth and spiritual birth that makes it so spiritual birth, also, can not be reversed.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The word "saved" in this passage as nothing to do with justification. Justification was already determined in verse 1, pertaining to the gospel was preached, received, and is their standing.

The word "saved" is however in reference to the troubles that the Corinthians are going through, which is, that there is no resurrection. If they keep in memory the very gospel that was preached, received, and is their standing, then they would be "saved" from a troubled mind of the false accusation of there being no resurrection. The only way this false doctrine of there being no resurrection should be any trouble is, if they believed in vain.

This verse does not, in anyway, disprove eternal security.

I'll bring you up to speed on the passage later.
Back to the slave ship for now.....

 

[FreeGrace]

They do teach that....but only for those who stay in the faith and remain in what they heard at first.

Where, in any of the contexts in the verses in the OP is that condition mentioned? Nowhere.

Read it again:

"24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.
25This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life.
God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. (1 John 2:23-25, 1 John 5:11-12 NASB)

See, the condition for abiding in the Son is that what you heard in the beginning remains in you.

We disagree on what it means to "abide". That's something WE do and in fact are commanded to do. Does that equate into a command to keep yourself saved? That would be rather ridiculous, don't you think?

If you do not meet that condition for abiding in the Son (what you heard remains in you) then you won't have the Son, and if you don't have the Son then you don't have eternal life. Read it. The words are plain as day.

Like ALL communication, it's not the words, it's the meaning of the words.

So we can plainly see that the promise of salvation/eternal life is for those who continue to believe, not for those who stop believing as OSAS claims.

Except LOS doctrine has zero verses that say that, mean that, or even hint at that.

 

[FreeGrace]

Good question, how does one reverse a literal, physical birth?

Well, that is my question. Just repeating it doesn't answer it.

You tell us what it is exactly that makes that impossible and we'll apply it to the spiritual birth and see if your analogy is perfect for illustrating how a spiritual birth can't be reversed either.

This is just another dodge rather than answering the question. Since it's your idea that a physical birth CAN be reversed, go ahead and explain how that can be.

I don't have to prove an irrational and illogical claim. My claim is logical and rational. A physical birth cannot be UN-done. If it can, the onus is on the one making the claim that it can be un-done.

So, please proceed.

I think that's fair.

When or why would it be fair to NEVER have to explain yourself?

After all, it's your argument anyway[/QUOT4E]
Please pay attention. I haven't argued anything. You're the one who has argued with my statement about physical births being NON-reversible. I only countered your argument with a challenge to prove your argument.

so you should be more than willing to examine any parallels you are sure exist between physical birth and spiritual birth that makes it so spiritual birth, also, can not be reversed.

I already have. Maybe a review of those posts would help.

But, since all argument belongs to you regarding the impossibility to reverse a physical birth, it's your responsibility to prove your argument.

If you can. But continuing this dodge will expose the truth of your claim; the truth is that your claim is false. Physical births cannot be UN-done or reversed.

 

[WIP]

It's amazing that I can actually hear this while reading the words on the screen but there is far far too much sarcasm and personal comments in this thread. To remove it all, I'd have to delete about the last 10-15 posts. Going forward from here, I'm going to insist that you all stop declaring what the opposition claims and stick to presenting what you claim and the reason behind it.

 

[MarkT]

I said this:
"No it doesn't. It says that once one receives eternal life, one WILL NEVER PERISH. PERIOD.

The Bible gives NO exceptions to that promise. And LOS doctrine hasn't provided any. Just assumptions.

Jesus said that those He gives eternal life to WILL NEVER PERISH. I DO listen to what the Bible says."

Jesus defined His sheep in v.9: "“I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture."

So, what does this teach?

First, those who "enter through Him" are saved.
Second, to "enter" is a metaphor for believing in Him. That's who His sheep are. And just for the Calvinists who might be in the audience, Jesus said He would die for THE sheep, not HIS sheep. All of them.

Jesus is the Shepherd of the sheep. His sheep hear his voice and they follow him. The Shepherd knows his sheep and his sheep know him. John 10:14 I am the good shepherd; I know my own and my own know me,

Enter is not a metaphor for believing in Him. Enter means enter the kingdom; his sheep enter the kingdom. The Shepherd goes before them and he leads them into the kingdom.

John 10:3-5Revised Standard Version (RSV)
3 To him the gatekeeper opens; the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. 5 A stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.”

Well, the "so what?" is that all believers are given eternal life, and none of them will perish. That's what.

False. The Shepherd gives eternal life to his sheep. John 10:28; his sheep are those who follow him for they know his voice. To follow Him is to follow His instruction - keep his commandments, follow his teachings. It's the Father's will that we should follow His Son. Those who do not do the will of the Father will not enter the kingdom.
Matthew 7:21
“Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

I would never say any of this because none of it is supported by Scripture. True believers will fall away, per Paul in 1 Tim 4:1. But there is no Scripture that says that IF one should fall away, they are no longer saved, or that they lose salvation.

True believers will not fall away. That's what distinguishes them as true believers. Paul said some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons. But Jesus said his sheep will not follow strangers. John 10:5 So those who fall away are not his sheep.

Why call anyone in that crowd "believer"? That would be an assumption. The very basis this crowd based their appeal to enter the kingdom was on their works. Which shows that they didn't believe in Him for salvation, but rather, they believed in their own works to save them.

No. They called Him Lord, and they said they did mighty works in his name. Only believers would call Him Lord. Only believers would say they did mighty works in His name. The point is they were not his sheep. They did not follow Jesus or keep his sayings and his commandments.

Jesus Himself indicated quite clearly that some people will "believe for a while" and then fall away. And He made no comment about any loss of salvation.

And all the verses in the OP teach OSAS and ES. But, if that's not true, just what do they all teach?

Mark 4:17
and they have no root in themselves, but endure for a while; then, when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately they fall away.

His sheep don't believe for a while and then fall away. His sheep endure to the end. Mt. 24:13
Mark 13:13
and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

I already told you what Paul said in Romans 11:29 His use of the word 'irrevocable means it is the promise of the gifts that is irrevocable. That's why he isn't specific. re. eternal life. It makes your explanation unnecessary. It's the promise God made to Jacob and his descendants. Granted you can say God always keeps his promise regardless, but in this letter he is specifically referring to the promise he made to Jacob.

 

[FreeGrace]

Jesus is the Shepherd of the sheep. His sheep hear his voice and they follow him. The Shepherd knows his sheep and his sheep know him. John 10:14 I am the good shepherd; I know my own and my own know me,

The point of who "My sheep" are is found in v.9.

Enter is not a metaphor for believing in Him.

It certainly does mean that. No one "gets saved" by entering the kingdom. Here is the verse: "“I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture."

One is saved by believing in Him. Hence, to "enter" means to believe.

Jesus is the Shepherd of the sheep. His sheep hear his voice and they follow him. The Shepherd knows his sheep and his sheep know him. John 10:14 I am the good shepherd; I know my own and my own know me,

Enter is not a metaphor for believing in Him. Enter means enter the kingdom; his sheep enter the kingdom. The Shepherd goes before them and he leads them into the kingdom.

v.9 is quite clear: those who "enter through Him ARE SAVED". No one gets saved by entering into the kingdom. Only the saved WILL enter the kingdom.

I said this:
"Well, the "so what?" is that all believers are given eternal life, and none of them will perish."

False.

That is exactly what Jesus said in John 10:28 - and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. "Them" refers to His sheep, which refers back to v.9 as those who "enter through Him". The reason one is saved is because they HAVE eternal life.

And Jesus said exactly that back in John 5:24 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, HAS eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Hence, when one believes, they have eternal life.

Hence, not false.

The Shepherd gives eternal life to his sheep. John 10:28; his sheep are those who follow him for they know his voice.

It's already been shown that the context for who His sheep are is in v.9. It's those who enter through Him who are saved and are His sheep.

To follow Him is to follow His instruction - keep his commandments, follow his teachings. It's the Father's will that we should follow His Son. Those who do not do the will of the Father will not enter the kingdom.
Matthew 7:21
“Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

In spite of all the works those people did, they were basing their appeal for entering the kingdom on their works, NOT on the finished work of Christ on the cross for their sins.

Hence, they were never believers.

True believers will not fall away.

Was Jesus not telling us the truth when He said: "“Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away."? Throughout the NT, we read that one is saved by believing. And there are NO verses that teach that one must continue to believe in order to continue to be saved, even though it seems many believe that to be true.

Or was Paul not telling us the truth in 1 Tim 4:1 - "But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,"

How can one "fall away" from something that they aren't in? Paul is describing those who have believed. The Greek word for "fall away" is: aphistēmi

1) to make stand off, cause to withdraw, to remove
1a) to excite to revolt
2) to stand off, to stand aloof
2a) to go away, to depart from anyone
2b) to desert, withdraw from one
2c) to fall away, become faithless
2d) to shun, flee from
2e) to cease to vex one
2f) to withdraw one’s self from, to fall away
2g) to keep one’s self from, absent one’s self from

This cannot be said of anyone who has never believed.

The Greek word is where we get the English word "apostasy", which means "to no longer believe what was believed". Hence, an apostate is a former believer.

That's what distinguishes them as true believers. Paul said some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons. But Jesus said his sheep will not follow strangers. John 10:5 So those who fall away are not his sheep.

Such mixing and matching of unrelated verses to try to make a point isn't how to rightly divide the Word of Truth. Why would Jesus speak of stupid sheep who do not follow Him? Wouldn't that tend to encourage the stupid ones?

To take John 10:5 totally literally, then how would one explain ALL the contradictory doctrines we find amongst evangelical Christians today? Clearly, they're not all following just HIm.

They called Him Lord, and they said they did mighty works in his name. Only believers would call Him Lord.

Actually, Matt 7:21-23 proves that to be in error. They showed NO signs of believing in Him for salvation. Like the Pharisees, they clearly thought they would get into the kingdom based on their works.

Only believers would say they did mighty works in His name. The point is they were not his sheep. They did not follow Jesus or keep his sayings and his commandments.

The ONLY basis for not getting into the kingdom is found in what their appeal was based on: works. And Paul said this about that:
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. Eph 2:8,9

I already told you what Paul said in Romans 11:29 His use of the word 'irrevocable means it is the promise of the gifts that is irrevocable.

There is NO mention of any "promise" of a gift in Rom 11;29, or anywhere else in Scripture, [edited]. What is mentioned is actual gifts of God. And Paul was clear about what he considered to be gifts of God:
spiritual gifts in 1:11
justification in 3:24 and 5:15,16,17
eternal life in 6:23

These are what he meant because he described them as gifts of God.

That's why he isn't specific. re. eternal life.

My response proves why it IS specific regarding eternal life. And justification and spiritual gifts.

It makes your explanation unnecessary. It's the promise God made to Jacob and his descendants.

Please prove this from Scripture.

Granted you can say God always keeps his promise regardless, but in this letter he is specifically referring to the promise he made to Jacob.

Please cite any verse in Romans that supports this idea.

I already told you what Paul said in Romans 11:29 His use of the word 'irrevocable means it is the promise of the gifts that is irrevocable. That's why he isn't specific. re. eternal life. It makes your explanation unnecessary. It's the promise God made to Jacob and his descendants. Granted you can say God always keeps his promise regardless, but in this letter he is specifically referring to the promise he made to Jacob.

What verse shows that Paul was "specifically referring to a promise He made to Jacob".

 

[Cygnus]

Please post the scripture that says we are forgiven of sins, past present and future, that we don't confess.

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, Romans 8:1...go look t up.
...If we as christians still need our future sins forgiven...then this verse clearly contradics your mistaken theology.

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9

How true.
What you fail to understand is that theology presents judicial forgiveness and parental forgiveness.
Let me show you the difference:
- Judicial forgiveness deals with sin's penalty — parental forgiveness deals with sin's consequences.
- Judicial forgiveness frees us from the condemnation of the righteous, omniscient Judge whom we have wronged — parental forgiveness sets things right with a grieving and displeased but loving Father.
- Judicial forgiveness provides an unshakeable standing before the throne of divine judgment — parental forgiveness deals with the state of our sanctification at any given moment and is dispensed from a throne of divine grace. So the forgiveness Christians are supposed to seek in their daily walk is not pardon from an angry Judge, but mercy from a grieved Father. REF
I trust you stand corrected on that issue.

If establishes the condition, by which we can be forgiven of our sins... which is to confess our sins.

...see above. judicial forgiveness and parental forgiveness

Jesus taught this condition for forgiveness, as well as the condition by which we would not be forgiven.

Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you,rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. Luke 17:3


32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.

35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”
Matthew 18:32-35

OK??? So what?

If you don't forgive, then you yourself will not be forgiven.

JLB

[edited]

 

[Cygnus]

And I answered it here:



If the reason you don't forgive others is because of a contempt and unbelief regarding the forgiveness you yourself have received, God the Father will reinstate your unforgiven debt. This is explained in Matthew 18:21-35 NASB. The point being, people who have received and retain the word of God's forgiveness don't go around beating people up for the debts they are owed. And even if they did, the fact that they cherish and retain the word of God's forgiveness to them they will ask forgiveness and seek to be cleansed from their own wrong-doing. But people who have contempt for the forgiveness of God they have received won't. Hebrews 10:26-31 explains the outcome of that person.

I trust you see that I don't agree with your form of legalism.
..according to your legalistic views....if you fail to forgive one person..the Father will reinstate your unforgiven debt.

As I have said before....if you can actually lose your salvation...you already have.

 

[Butch5]

This thread is still going on? You guys are wasting your time. The answer isn't going to be by tossing Scriptures back and forth. The problem is that one side is reasoning incorrectly. Until they reason correctly this will go on and on. Since on this forum one has to address the argument and not the poster, the issue can't be addressed. To solve this one has to show those who reason incorrectly that they are reasoning incorrectly. However, as I pointed out that's not allowed.

 

[chessman]

Good question, how does one reverse a literal, physical birth?
You tell us what it is exactly that makes that impossible and we'll apply it to the spiritual birth and see if your analogy is perfect for illustrating how a spiritual birth can't be reversed either. I think that's fair.

Umm, you could bury the old self and raise up a new self.

Romans 6:4 (LEB) Therefore we have been buried with him through baptism into death, in order that just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so also we may live a new way of life. ​

Oh, the irony that Paul puts it this way in the same context as Eternal Life being a gift of God's v23. And repeats it again prior to the doctrine that teaches us God's gifts are irrevocable (11:23)

Romans 8:10 (LEB) But if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. ​

And if you wanted to ensure a new spiritually re-born person never dies (spiritually) again as they wait to die physically hopefully bearing fruit in the meantime, you could put them under an ownership seal.

Romans 7:4 (LEB) So then, my brothers, you also were brought to death with respect to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to the one who was raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. ​

Or better still, hide them from the adversary.

Colossians 3:3 (LEB) For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
​

It's no wonder Paul is so confident all those who have The Spirit (i.e. Re-born spiritually) will also see new physical bodies eventually.

Romans 8:11 (LEB) And if the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead lives in you, the one who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also make alive your mortal bodies through his Spirit who lives in you.
​

It is so simple. Being re-born spiritually is simply the first step of an unavoidable process headed toward the final goal (resurrection). To put to death a spiritually re-born person is to put to death The Spirit. Simply impossible. But some have been deceived into thinking it's possible. Wierd.

One could even say a spiritually re-born life is Eternal Life. Or maybe somebody has already. I think I read it somewhere.