Eternal security or conditional security?

[Jethro Bodine]

The Golden Rule is part of the same conversation as "I never knew you". What, that's not applicable to me, you and every other Christian either? Makes your case look weak, very weak, IMO.

So 'many' in 'many will say to me on that day' in Matthew 7:21-23 NASB means that every single lost person, categorically and without exception, never knew Jesus? It's not honest to decide that's what Jesus was saying when the passage does not say that.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yep, pretty obvious indeed.

Yes, it should be abundantly clear that Jesus can not say 'I never knew you' to lost people who he did know.
The mistake OSAS makes is thinking that just because he is going to say 'I never knew you' to many lost people that he will be saying that to ALL lost people, including the ones he did know before they rejected and trampled on his blood.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I know what is says. And I know what it means. One is saved by believing the Word. One receives eternal life by believing the Word.

Freegrace, the passage says 'you are saved, if you hold fast the word I preached to you'. It does not say 'you are saved, if you possess eternal life'.

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

 

[chessman]

The mistake OSAS makes is thinking that just because he is going to say 'I never knew you' to many lost people that he will be saying that to ALL lost people, including the ones he did know before they rejected and trampled on his blood.

He tells use exactly who it is (the persons are) to whom this statement applies;

Matthew 7:21 (LEB) “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven, ...​

The ones that have said "Lord, Lord" (i.e. YAHWEH of the OT) to or about this Jesus of Nazarath, yet in reality don't enter into Heaven are the ones Jesus says, "I never knew you" to. I never said it was about an atheist or outright denier of God or all lost people or anyone other than who Jesus Himself says it's said to. So, when you say:

So 'many' in 'many will say to me on that day' in Matthew 7:21-23 NASB means that every single lost person, categorically and without exception, never knew Jesus? It's not honest to decide that's what Jesus was saying when the passage does not say that.

This is a false claim and amounts to nothing more than red herring. You could call another person dishonest toward the actual Text, I suppose, if that person thinks/says this passage applies to "every single lost person, categorically and without exception", but I never said that. You did, about me. I can speak for myself and my own thoughts.

The reason I brought it into the conversation is that these are exactly the type of persons you claim were once saved (vocally claiming Jesus is LORD, YAHWEH, i.e. God of the OT) yet you claim are no longer saved.

This is Jesus (not just me) claiming they never were really saved (He never knew them). Even if they've said or will say Lord, Lord to Him. But you are right that it has nothing to do with atheist, or cats, or dogs. But you are wrong to say I am claiming it does.

In this passage Jesus is quoting or alluding to Psalm 119 and applying it to Himself. An obvious claim to His divinity. But also an important point is being made from Psalm 119:

Psalm 119:2 (LEB) Blessed are those who keep his testimonies; they seek him with a whole heart.​

Clearly Jesus is teaching His disciples and the mixed crowds following/listening to Him by the Sea of Galiliee that there are whole hearted believers (keepers of His Testimones who are blessed-who enter Heaven) and there are half-hearted 'believers' in Him (who are not blessed-who do not enter Heaven-who act lawlessly-and who Jesus never knew). But sure, there are those people outside of these two categories who have never (not yet anyway) said Jesus is Lord. I'm speaking of atheists and others of this sort of people. So no, I'm not making the mistake of applying this verse to all lost people uncategorically. But it does apply to those that claim to be Christians (which is the topic if this thread).

But toward your point (I never knew you, isn't said to ALL who say Lord, Lord yet do not enter Heaven but rather only a subset of everyone who says Lord, Lord. Only the ones that specifically say to Jesus "did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name’. I need to ask you:

Are you aware of any person (besides Jesus) that does not, has not, practiced lawlessness?

Matthew 7:23 (LEB) And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’​

I thought all people (save Jesus) practiced lawlessness on occasion. So Jesus clarifies who He means by "them" in the context of the whole passage to include v21 and even Psalm 119. Out of all (everyone) who says Lord, Lord to Him, He declares "I never knew you" to only those who have not meant it with a whole heart. Very much like (if not identical to) those Paul spoke about that "believed in vain, past tense" living in Corinth on his first trip there. These are the types of people that so easily can out-right denounce Christ. But they don't even need to go that far in their clear demonstration to you/me of not being saved.

Heck, even some people that still say Jesus is Lord were never actually saved to begin with, much less those that no-longer say it.
Salvation is a heart issue, a whole heart issue. Always has been, always will be.

 

[JLB]

I realized if one can lose their salvation...they already have.

Please share the scripture that brought you to this conclusion.



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

He tells use exactly who it is (the persons are) to whom this statement applies;

Matthew 7:21 (LEB) “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven, ...​

The ones that have said "Lord, Lord" (i.e. YAHWEH of the OT) to or about this Jesus of Nazarath, yet in reality don't enter into Heaven are the ones Jesus says, "I never knew you" to. I never said it was about an atheist or outright denier of God or all lost people or anyone other than who Jesus Himself says it's said to. So, when you say:



This is a false claim and amounts to nothing more than red herring. You could call another person dishonest toward the actual Text, I suppose, if that person thinks/says this passage applies to "every single lost person, categorically and without exception", but I never said that. You did, about me. I can speak for myself and my own thoughts.

The reason I brought it into the conversation is that these are exactly the type of persons you claim were once saved (vocally claiming Jesus is LORD, YAHWEH, i.e. God of the OT) yet you claim are no longer saved.

This is Jesus (not just me) claiming they never were really saved (He never knew them). Even if they've said or will say Lord, Lord to Him. But you are right that it has nothing to do with atheist, or cats, or dogs. But you are wrong to say I am claiming it does.

In this passage Jesus is quoting or alluding to Psalm 119 and applying it to Himself. An obvious claim to His divinity. But also an important point is being made from Psalm 119:

Psalm 119:2 (LEB) Blessed are those who keep his testimonies; they seek him with a whole heart.​

Clearly Jesus is teaching His disciples and the mixed crowds following/listening to Him by the Sea of Galiliee that there are whole hearted believers (keepers of His Testimones who are blessed-who enter Heaven) and there are half-hearted 'believers' in Him (who are not blessed-who do not enter Heaven-who act lawlessly-and who Jesus never knew). But sure, there are those people outside of these two categories who have never (not yet anyway) said Jesus is Lord. I'm speaking of atheists and others of this sort of people. So no, I'm not making the mistake of applying this verse to all lost people uncategorically. But it does apply to those that claim to be Christians (which is the topic if this thread).

But toward your point (I never knew you, isn't said to ALL who say Lord, Lord yet do not enter Heaven but rather only a subset of everyone who says Lord, Lord. Only the ones that specifically say to Jesus "did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name’. I need to ask you:

Are you aware of any person (besides Jesus) that does not, has not, practiced lawlessness?

Matthew 7:23 (LEB) And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’​

I thought all people (save Jesus) practiced lawlessness on occasion. So Jesus clarifies who He means by "them" in the context of the whole passage to include v21 and even Psalm 119. Out of all (everyone) who says Lord, Lord to Him, He declares "I never knew you" to only those who have not meant it with a whole heart. Very much like (if not identical to) those Paul spoke about that "believed in vain, past tense" living in Corinth on his first trip there. These are the types of people that so easily can out-right denounce Christ. But they don't even need to go that far in their clear demonstration to you/me of not being saved.

Heck, even some people that still say Jesus is Lord were never actually saved to begin with, much less those that no-longer say it.
Salvation is a heart issue, a whole heart issue. Always has been, always will be.

Okay, you're not saying Matthew 7:21-23 includes all lost people, categorically and without exception. That's all I was asking.
The whole point is, since Matthew 7:21-23 NASB doesn't include every single lost person without exception, it can't be used as a OSAS passage to show that when people are lost they never knew Jesus to begin with. That's the whole point. It's not a OSAS passage, but it gets used that way repeatedly by OSAS.

Same with the thief on the cross. It can't be used to say, 'look, he was OSAS, therefore all people who get saved are OSAS'. Same with the Prodigal son. Just because that particular prodigal came home and his father received him doesn't mean all prodigal son's will come home and be received by the Father (Hebrews 12:17 NASB). But that is what OSAS claims those passages mean. There isn't enough information in those stories to make them OSAS or non-OSAS either way.

This should not even be a point of discussion in the church because the Bible is so crystal clear on the necessity to continue in that which you heard and received in the beginning, and the consequences for not doing so. The twisting and deceit that is necessary to defend it, and the utter depth of blindness toward plain words of scripture that covers the eyes of many who defend it, tells me how truly false it really is.

 

[JLB]

The problem with this view is that God's gifts are irrevocable, and eternal life is one of the gifts of God. Therefore, eternal life is irrevocable.

Did Paul make any attempt to exclude the gift of eternal life from the gifts that are irrevocable in Romans, or any other epistle? No, he did not. I make no assumptions.

I do what the Bereans do. I check to see that what is preached, claimed, etc matches what Scripture says. And I find that LOS doctrine does not find support from Scripture. No clear and straight-forward statements of loss of salvation, or eternal life. Just the opposite, in fact. Which is seen in the verses in the OP.

Here are some verse's for you to check as well.

5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God. Romans 2:6-11

On the Day of Judgement, God will render judgement to those who had the life of His Son and the Holy Spirit within them and evaluate what deeds they produced, as it plainly says... "will render to each one according to his deeds”

...eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
... but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath.

Paul plainly warned the Ephesians Church of exactly the same thing.

6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.7 Therefore do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 5:6-7


Look at the plain words that Paul uses, and warns of the wrath of God that will come upon the son's of disobedience, and says to the Ephesians... DO NOT BE PARTAKERS OF GOD'S WRATH WITH THEM.

WITH THEM!

Because of these things... the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.

Paul describes these things:

For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Ephesians 5:5

Sexual immorality and idolatry and clearly listed among the things that cause a person to have their part in the lake of fire.

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8


Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.7 Therefore do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 5:6-7


Why is it that the Church in American seem's to have some special status whereby the scriptures don't apply to us, and are ignored by some?

Let no one deceive you with empty words...


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Cygnus said: ↑
You still sin. In your theology Christ blood isn't enough to cover your sins....you gotta do a bit more, help Jesus out so to speak.

I need to confess my sin, so that He will forgive and cleanse me.
JLB

The purpose of believing in Christ is for salvation.

The purpose of confessing our sins is for fellowship with Christ. 2 Cor 13:14, 1 Jn 1

 

[FreeGrace]

I asked this:
"Please answer this: can parents do anything to undo the birth of one of their children? Of course not. Nor does God do so."

Seriously, what is this new entity that suddenly exists when a person is born again that can't be made to go away, like when a physical child is born into the world?

Seriously, why was my question not answered? However, this "new entity that suddenly exists" is found here:
2 Cor 5:17 - Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

The born again believer is called a "new creature" in the Bible, not a "new entity that can't be made to go away".

It's interesting that you believe that one can stop believing in Jesus, trampling on his blood, and they are still saved, but if that same person thinks they can lose their salvation then they have already lost their salvation.

I never made that statement about "already lost their salvation". I believe in ES because of all the verses that I believe are crystal clear about it, as found in the OP.

 

[FreeGrace]

Freegrace, the passage says 'you are saved, if you hold fast the word I preached to you'. It does not say 'you are saved, if you possess eternal life'.

Let me be crystal clear here: that's exactly what the passage means. From the Greek.

What it doesn't mean at all, nor says, is that our salvation depends upon ourselves gripping our salvation so tightly so that we don't let go and lose it.

In fact, we can't hold onto our salvation. God does that. Jn 10:28,29 says so.

Your refusal to accept the meaning of the Greek word for "hold fast" prevents the proper understanding of the verse.

 

[FreeGrace]

Here are some verse's for you to check as well.

Maybe you just weren't looking, but I've already commented on all the verses you have posted here. And shown that none of them say anything about losing salvation. I do understand that is what the LOS doctrine believes the verses MEAN, but they sure DON'T say so.

otoh, the verses in the OP actually DO address eternal security.

So, please check out those verses and please explain what they are teaching, if not ES and OSAS.

 

[JLB]

The purpose of believing in Christ is for salvation.

The purpose of confessing our sins is for fellowship with Christ. 2 Cor 13:14, 1 Jn 1

If a believing Christian comes to a point in their life, whereby they no longer believe, then they would stop confessing their sins, and would not be forgiven of those sins, nor cleansed of their unrighteousness.

Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” John 8:24

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9


3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:3-4

"Knowing Him" is the definition of eternal life.... And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. John 17:3

This is how we know that we know Him... by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.


Knowing Him is eternal life, the thing you label as "fellowship", is the text book, biblical definition of eternal life.

The way the bible has given us to verify and prove that we know Him is: by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.

There is a condition to having eternal life... it is keeping His commandments, the evidence of knowing Him.

If we stumble in this, we can confess our sin and be forgiven, as we have an Advocate with the Father...
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 John 1:8-2:2


3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.


That's why the Apostle Paul, constantly warned the Gentiles, who were used to living in immorality, not to practice the works of the flesh, because it would end up resulting in them being partakers of God's wrath on the day of judgement.

Paul warned them over and over of these things.


5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.7 Therefore do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 5:5-7

Let no one deceive you with empty words...


JLB

 

[WIP]

I believe the context is clear about fellowship. First, He begins the chapter on the subject of producing fruit, which is about the believer's lifestyle. Then, He notes that the remaining 11 disciples were saved, from v.3:
"You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you." Back in ch 13, when washing the disciples' feet, He used the word "clean" to indicate that "all of you are clean, but not every one (meaning Judas).

Then in v.4 He says: "Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me."

If this command (remain in Me) is about being or staying saved, then one's salvation is dependent upon oneself, not Christ. We do not and cannot save ourselves. So the command cannot be a reference to either getting or staying saved. It's all about fruit production, not getting or staying saved. The RCC believes that the believer co-operates with Christ in their salvation by the term "synergism".

And, the wording indicates a partnership between the believer and Jesus. The branch (believer) cannot be independent of the vine and bear fruit. By Jesus adding to the command to "remain in Me" that He will "remain in you" shows the partnership.

The last sentence of v.4 also shows partnership for the purpose of bearing fruit rather than getting or staying saved. iow, the believer must "remain in Him to bear fruit".

The concept of fellowship is found in Phil 1:5 - For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now KJV

The word for "fellowship" is koinōnia:

1) fellowship, association, community, communion, joint participation, intercourse
1a) the share which one has in anything, participation
1b) intercourse, fellowship, intimacy
1b1) the right hand as a sign and pledge of fellowship (in fulfilling the apostolic office)
1c) a gift jointly contributed, a collection, a contribution, as exhibiting an embodiment and proof of fellowship

Of the 20 occurrences in the NT, the word is translated as "fellowship" in the KJV 12 times. 4 times as communion, and once each for "communicate", "communication", "contribution" and "distribution".

The 4 times we find "fellowship" in 1 Jn 1 it is this word 'koinonia'.

One would have to argue that one is saved by bearing fruit to use John 15 as support for loss of salvation doctrine. How does that square with Scripture on how to be saved? It doesn't.

So, it would appear that there is no place in Scripture where it specifically says that Jesus was speaking of fellowship and not relationship. You demand that others not do what you are doing. That is, defining the meaning and understanding from the text based on your own deductive reasoning.

 

[JLB]

So, it would appear that there is no place in Scripture where it specifically says that Jesus was speaking of fellowship and not relationship. You demand that others not do what you are doing. That is, defining the meaning and understanding from the text based on your own deductive reasoning.

LIKE! [pounding the like button!]

Well said WIP.

 

[WIP]

I hope the whole point of these discussions is to grow in our understanding, not beat each other up by our differences. By discussing these things all involved share their own understanding and somewhere in the mix is the Truth that we all seek.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I never made that statement about "already lost their salvation".

Right.
Cygnus did.

Seriously, why was my question not answered? However, this "new entity that suddenly exists" is found here:
2 Cor 5:17 - Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

The born again believer is called a "new creature" in the Bible, not a "new entity that can't be made to go away".

Then you have to agree that your analogy of a literal human birth, and how it can't be made to go away as if it never happened, has no value in illustrating how a new spiritual creation can't just go away.

When one is born again, the Holy Spirit comes into that person. The Holy Spirit can just as easily be taken out of a person as it was putting it in them. That's not true of a literal human birth. So your analogy is useless towards proving that once a person gets saved that it's impossible for them to then be not saved.

What it doesn't mean at all, nor says, is that our salvation depends upon ourselves gripping our salvation so tightly so that we don't let go and lose it.

It means exactly what it says, Freegrace: You are saved, if you hold firmly the word of the gospel that you heard and were saved by.

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

It doesn't say 'if you have eternal life you are saved', as OSAS claims. And it doesn't say 'if you hold on to your salvation'. It says you are saved if you hold fast "the word". I think it completely unreasonable and dishonest for OSAS to claim it does not say 'word' but instead says something else. The Greek word used there is 'logos'. Even the most unschooled believer with just the slightest exposure to Greek knows 'logos' is 'word'--not eternal life, not salvation, not anything else. We can't just decide to change the Greek word to suit a particular doctrine. That's dishonest. This illustrates one of the reasons why I think OSAS is such a dangerous doctrine in the church. One has to do some serious twisting of many scriptures to defend it. Ultimately, I don't think it's just a matter of being honestly wrong about this subject (though, surely some people are). It's more serious than that.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"The purpose of believing in Christ is for salvation.

The purpose of confessing our sins is for fellowship with Christ. 2 Cor 13:14, 1 Jn 1"

If a believing Christian comes to a point in their life, whereby they no longer believe, then they would stop confessing their sins, and would not be forgiven of those sins, nor cleansed of their unrighteousness.

Correct. They would not be in fellowship with Christ. What do the verses above teach?

Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” John 8:24

This was said to Jews who NEVER believed. Quite different from one who has ceased to believe.

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9

The subject in 1 Jn 1 is fellowship. That is what confession is for.

I explained how Jesus had to stop in the middle of washing the disciples' feet to teach Peter that although he had already taken a bath ("you are already clean", meaning saved), Peter would have "no part" with Jesus unless He allowed Jesus to wash his feet. Jesus was making the analogy of being clean from bathing, but getting one's feet dirty by walking in the world. Though clean, one's feet got dirty when walking on the roads and paths of that time. If one has animal feces on their feet, how can they have fellowship when visiting another in their home, if they don't get their feet clean?

3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:3-4

Why would anyone think this is about being or getting saved?? Please explain.

"Knowing Him" is the definition of eternal life.... And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. John 17:3

Just because John wrote both books, there is no contextual connection between the 2 verses.

There is FAR MORE connection between Rom 6:23 and Rom 11:29 regarding eternal life than 1 Jn 2:3-4 and Jn 17:3.

Knowing Him is eternal life, the thing you label as "fellowship", is the text book, biblical definition of eternal life.

When did I label "knowing Him is eternal life" as "fellowship"??

The way the bible has given us to verify and prove that we know Him is: by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.

Why ignore what ELSE John wrote in his first epistle?
"These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life." 1 Jn 5:13

The only people who have eternal life are those who have believed in Christ. As I've proven over and over.

There is a condition to having eternal life... it is keeping His commandments, the evidence of knowing Him.

Consider all these verses on HOW to receive eternal life:
John 3:15-16
15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

From these verses, what is the ONLY condition mentioned for having eternal life?

 

[FreeGrace]

So, it would appear that there is no place in Scripture where it specifically says that Jesus was speaking of fellowship and not relationship.

I believe that my answer showed that Jesus couldn't be speaking of loss of salvation in John 15. Furthermore, I know without a doubt that the verses in the OP teach something. I am convinced of the clarity of the verses that they teach eternal life. If they don't teach ES, but something else, I cannot imagine what. And no one has tried to help me understand what all of the verses do teach.

You demand that others not do what you are doing.

I don't believe that I have demanded anything, as if that were even possible. Most don't even answer my questions.

That is, defining the meaning and understanding from the text based on your own deductive reasoning.

Every verse means something. But I will never accept that any verse contradicts any other verse. So, the Bible cannot teach both the possibility of loss of salvation, and eternal security. Those 2 concepts are mutually exclusive. They both cannot be true.

Unless I can understand what the verses in the OP are teaching, there is no way I would ever accept LOS doctrine, which I believe has far less clear verses than ES verses.

What has generally occurred is LOS doctrine thinks quoting their proof texts is a refutation of how I understand the verses in the OP. But that isn't how to refute something. Again, I need to know what the verses in the OP are teaching, if not ES.

I've provided a reasonable biblically based explanation of the LOS verses that don't involve loss of salvation.

All I can do is hope that someone will provide a reasonable biblically based explanation of the OP verses to show that they teach something else.

 

[gr8grace3]

I hope the whole point of these discussions is to grow in our understanding, not beat each other up by our differences. By discussing these things all involved share their own understanding and somewhere in the mix is the Truth that we all seek.

This why I joined this site. One of The sites doctrinal statements............
"We believe that genuine believers are born again by the Holy Spirit of God, and are indwelt, baptized into the body of Christ, the true church, and sealed by the Holy Spirit, and thus, unable to be separated from the love of Jesus Christ."

I came to help promote this truth of this site. Seems to me that this site doesn't promote this truth.............Freegrace does though.

What am I missing WIP? Do you believe this doctrinal statement that is posted on this site?. I feel a little frustrated and a bit deceived, because most here seem to lean towards being separated from the love of Christ.

 

[WIP]

Not going there.