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Harlot and the Beast

for_his_glory

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The great city has always been the Holy City of Jerusalem, even though Babylon was a great city before it's destruction by the Persians in 539BC. Jesus was not crucified in Jerusalem, but outside the walls of Jerusalem on a hill in Golgotha that was also part of the Roman government in Jerusalem at the time of Christ and crucified Jesus according to their custom.

Rev 17 and 18 speaks of mystery Babylon as it is even a mystery to those today that have no understanding. In Rev 17 the great harlot rides the beast so the harlot can not be both the harlot and the beast. The seven heads are that of the Babylonian Empire, Medo/Persian Empire, Grecian Empire and Roman Empire. The ten horns represent the nations the Roman Empire scattered to when the deadly wound was put upon them as even today these nations are controlled by the Roman Empire, Daniel 7:23-25; Rev 13, 17, that would love nothing less then to escape this ruling power.

These ten nations were the Anglo-Saxons (English), the Franks (French), Suevi (Portuguese), Visigoths (Spanish), Burgundians (Swiss), Alemanni (Germans), Lombards (Italians), Ostrogoths, Heruli, and the Vandals in northern Africa. The last three being Ostrogoths, Heruli, and the Vandals had already been destroyed by the Roman Empire before their deadly wound came in 1798.

In Rev 17, 18, 19 the great harlot (son of perdition) is described and then destroyed along with the beast being the existing Roman Empire. The earth bewails their destruction as they were made rich by the woman. In the NT the term woman is used as a symbol for a church. The woman mentioned in Rev 12 is the true Church of God as she is carried away into the wilderness and taken care of by God.

This woman in Rev 17 sitting on a scarlet beast is a spiritual harlot as she entered into adulterous alliances with the leaders an kings of every nation around the world including America. Rev 18 describes all these worldly leaders and kings fornicated with her and will bewail her destruction. In her was found the blood of the prophets and the saints and all that were slain on earth.

Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. 8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. 9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
 

Jim Parker

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The seven heads are that of the Babylonian Empire, Medo/Persian Empire, Grecian Empire and Roman Empire.
That's 4, not 7.
as even today these nations are controlled by the Roman Empire,
There is no Roman Empire today.
These ten nations were the Anglo-Saxons (English), the Franks (French), Suevi (Portuguese), Visigoths (Spanish), Burgundians (Swiss), Alemanni (Germans), Lombards (Italians), Ostrogoths, Heruli, and the Vandals in northern Africa.
The actual known history of these tribes is much more complicated than this over-simplification.
For example; the "English" are not the modern "Anglo-Saxons." The English are comprised of Celts, Britons, Scots, Picts, Romans, Danes, Norwegians, Normans, and a few Spaniards thrown in for flavor.
The "Germans" included; Huns, Goths, Visigoths, Ostrogoths, Vandals, Gauls, Welsh, Teutons, Franks and a host of others. They were all Germanic tribes.
deadly wound came in 1798.
AH! "The overthrow of the Papacy"
The 7th Day Adventist's explanation to who the antichrist will be.
Same old KATH-lick bashing baloney and people still fall for it.
In the NT the term woman is used as a symbol for a church.
No it's not. There is no example of the word "woman" being used to mean "church" in the NT.
I could be wrong. Do you have a citation?
The woman mentioned in Rev 12 is the true Church of God as she is carried away into the wilderness and taken care of by God.
Rev 12:5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.
The Church did not bear a male child. The male Child created the Church. (And the male child is obviously Christ Who is described here)
The woman who bore the male child who will rule all nations with a rod of iron is the Virgin Mary.
And, yes, there are many who will conclude that the woman clothed in the sun is the church. It's a stretch, imo.
In Rev 17, 18, 19 the great harlot (son of perdition)
The great harlot is a woman and, therefore, cannot be a son.
This woman in Rev 17 sitting on a scarlet beast is a spiritual harlot as she entered into adulterous alliances with the leaders an kings of every nation around the world including America.
There was no America ca. 90AD.
America is now often thrown into the mix primarily for sensationalism. More accurately, it would be said to include the rulers and merchants of all nations in existence in the 1st century and for all centuries to come.

I believe the woman represents the world economic system which makes a small minority very rich (merchants) and powerful (rulers) at the expense of the masses of us commoners. That's why it is the merchants who mourn at her destruction.

The Revelation is packed with fascinating details of the end of the age. You have presented a sample of one interpretation among many.

For that, thank you.

I personally have a dislike for presentations in which the expositor tells exactly what each symbol means and exactly who all the players are (usually accompanied by charts and PowerPoint presentations) because, quite simply, we don't really know and we cannot accurately pinpoint them. The names of the players change over time according to the current events and the ebb and flow of opinions. So, the "antichrist" (a name not found anywhere in the Revelation) has been "definitely" identified as; Nero, the King of Spain, Napoleon, Mussolini, and the Pope (of course! We mustn't forget the pope!) among others.

Here's the most important question for believers: When Christ returns, will He find you faithfully obeying His commands?

Whether anyone knew who's who and what's what will be of no interest to the Judge of mankind when He judges. He will judge each and every one of us according to our works and not by what we think we know.

Blessed is that servant who is found doing his master's will when his master returns.

I'll wander off now and leave you alone. :wave

iakov the fool
 

for_his_glory

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That's 4, not 7.
Seven remaining nations that still exist today:

Babylonian Empire:
(Iraq) The lion represents the winged lions that guarded the royal places of Babylon. This Empire ran from 2000BC - 1759BC

Medo – Persian Empire:
(Iran) The ribs of the bear are part of the consuming greed that devours the first empire. This Empire ran approximately from 536BC - 330BC

Grecian Empire:
(Greece, Turkey, Syria, Egypt) Four wings of the leopard described the swiftness of this empire that ran from 334-331BC. It wrestled world dominion from Medo-Persia. After the death of Alexander the Great the kingdom was divided into four minor kingdoms that continued as prominent factors in world politics until the Roman Empire gathered it back as one kingdom.

Roman Empire: (little horn, Daniel 8:9-14, 23-27)
Iron represents the stronghold this nation had. Daniel chapter 2 mentions the iron element of this empire that it to will be divided and broken as God will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed.
This Empire ran from 753BC -27BC

I said these ten nations were, as in the time of these four Empires. Anyone who really wants to know what countries are all involved within them can look that up.

It's you that brought up the Papacy, not me.

The example for the woman meaning the church is that we are all (male & female) called the Bride of Christ that are Spiritually born again.
Ephesians 5:25-27; Rev 19:7-9.

Nowhere in Rev 2:26, 27 does it mention the virgin Mary ruling over nations with a rod of iron. It says he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations. And he shall rule them with a rod of iron.

Rev 17, 18, 19 explains who this harlot is.

I agree there was no America in 90AD, but yet is Revelation not yet future!

We can pinpoint who the players are by scripture alone if one understands that of Daniel chapter 7 and the interpretation of the four beast.
 

Jim Parker

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Seven remaining nations that still exist today:...Babylonian Empire: ...Medo – Persian Empire: ...Grecian Empire: ...Roman Empire
That is patently false. None of those empires exist today. Today, there are countries which exist in the locations where those ancient empires used to be but, none of those countries are the ancient empires. You are trying to equate ancient empires which have long been gone with modern countries.
Also, you have substituted the word "country" for "empire."
Iran is not the Medo-Persian Empire.
Babylon is not Iraq.
The Grecian empire extended all the way into India. It is not modern Greece.
The Roman Empire extended from Britain to beyond the Tigris-Euphrates river valley and included much of northern Europe and north Africa. That is not modern Italy.
It's you that brought up the Papacy, not me.
That is not the case. Your reference to the "deadly wound of 1798 is a direct reference to the pope.
The example for the woman meaning the church is that we are all (male & female) called the Bride of Christ that are Spiritually born again.
Paul used the term "bride of Christ" to refer to the church. No where in the NT is the word "woman" used to refer to the church. You have made a generalization from a specific term to a generic term which is a logical fallacy. The two terms do not have the same meaning nor are they used in the same way in the NT.
The purpose of using the term "Bride of Christ" is to relate the truth that the church is "one flesh with Christ." The word "Woman" is never used in that manner in the NT.
Nowhere in Rev 2:26, 27 does it mention the virgin Mary ruling over nations with a rod of iron.
I didn't say it did. It is her son, Jesus, who will so rule.
We can pinpoint who the players are by scripture alone if one understands that of Daniel chapter 7 and the interpretation of the four beast.
Then you are conflating the visions of Daniel and of John.
Both are highly symbolic. Many people have "identified" the players over the centuries and have been wrong. So I am highly skeptical of any "positive identification" presented. There is a reason that the symbols were not given with more detail. It becomes a distraction from what the work with which the church is to be busy.

Mat 5:16Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven."

Jesus made that very clear. No interpretation is needed. No jumping between Revelation and Daniel is required to discern any mystery.

Just obey the Lord.

Mat 24:45-46Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing."

When the Lord comes and judges mankind, He will judge on the basis of what each of us did or did not do, (Mat 25:31-46) not on the basis of our exegesis of apocalyptic passages that He specifically made mysterious and unknowable.
 
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for_his_glory

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I can't make you see it or understand it as it takes the full context of scripture from Genesis to Revelation plus history of the times and geographical locations then and now. No man has ever taught me any of this as it is what I have studied the last twenty years.

I never expect anyone to agree with me because it is a very deep study that many do not care to involve themselves with and that's their choice.

Luke 8:17 For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad.

1 Corinthians 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
 

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Acknowledging the end times has been some of the most contested meanings among those who do have eyes that see I state my take.
As far as modern cities that follow a Babylon description I would state Dubai.
However Dubai is close but not in the correct location.

I think the city will be in the land of Shinar. Modern Iraq. Its yet to come.

Zechariah 5:5-11
Where are they taking the basket?” I asked the angel who was speaking to me.
11 He replied, “To the country of Babylonia[b] to build a house for it. When the house is ready, the basket will be set there in its place.”

Zech 5:11 Hebrew shinar

Iraq has a lot of oil reserves. In future years that commodity will bring even greater wealth.
 

for_his_glory

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If one goes way back to Nimrod and then the four Empires beginning with the Babylonian Empire that have developed from his time until today there is only one that was, is not and yet to come who received a deadly wound, but that wound has been healed.

Daniel 7; Rev 13; 17
 

Biblesurveyor

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I am not sure what the beast is. The first one rises up out of the sea (R 13:1) and the second one rises out of the earth (v11) and convinces those on earth to make an image of the first beast and to give it breath (possible computer animation). Then we must have the "mark" of him on us before we can buy or sell.

verse 8 says ALL who dwell on earth will worship the first beast. That's scary to me.
 

for_his_glory

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I am not sure what the beast is. The first one rises up out of the sea (R 13:1) and the second one rises out of the earth (v11) and convinces those on earth to make an image of the first beast and to give it breath (possible computer animation). Then we must have the "mark" of him on us before we can buy or sell.

verse 8 says ALL who dwell on earth will worship the first beast. That's scary to me.
Rev 13:1-10 John saw a beast (beast is often referred to as nations in scripture) rise up out of the sea having seven heads and ten horns and upon his horns ten crowns, (crowns denotes Kings) and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. Daniel chapter 7 explains all of this.

The beast rises up out of the sea as the sea here is symbolic of people and nations as in a sea of humanity, Daniel Chapter 7:1-8; Revelation 17:15. This beast is a Luciferian political, economic and religious power that Satan has always worked through. Out of this system we see another beast rise up out of the earth that is given his power and authority from the first beast, Rev 13:11-18.

This is a man scripture calls the son of perdition being the last antichrist, 1 John 2:18; 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12, who claims he is God and will deceive many, and possibly even the very elect of God if possible as he displays lying signs and wonders that will cause those who are not of Christ to bow down and worship him taking the mark of this beast.

IMO I believe the mark of the beast (not being a literal mark) is the thoughts of the mind and actions of the hands. Those who have no faith in Christ will reach out to this beast who promises peace and safety as this will be a time of much distress in all nations after the first six trumpets of God's great wrath being poured out into the world. Here is the patience of the saints during this time before Christ returns, Rev 14:12-20.

We read in Rev 19 that Christ returns and destroys the beast and the false prophet (beast out of the sea and out of the earth) by the brightness of His coming, 2 Thessalonians 2:8, and by the sharp sword that proceeds out of His mouth (sword here means the word of God). Christ then sends His angels out to the four corners of the earth to gather all who are His own, those who are still alive and those asleep in the grave as we are then changed and caught up to Him to be with Christ and the Father for eternity, Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Corinthians 15:51-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17.
 

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IMO I believe the mark of the beast (not being a literal mark) is the thoughts of the mind and actions of the hands. Those who have no faith in Christ will reach out to this beast who promises peace and safety as this will be a time of much distress in all nations after the first six trumpets of God's great wrath being poured out into the world. Here is the patience of the saints during this time before Christ returns, Rev 14:12-20.
How does that relate to needing the mark in order to buy or sell?
 

Jim Parker

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We read in Rev 19 that Christ returns and destroys the beast and the false prophet (beast out of the sea and out of the earth) by the brightness of His coming, 2 Thessalonians 2:8, and by the sharp sword that proceeds out of His mouth (sword here means the word of God). Christ then sends His angels out to the four corners of the earth to gather all who are His own, those who are still alive and those asleep in the grave as we are then changed and caught up to Him to be with Christ and the Father for eternity, Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Corinthians 15:51-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17.
:thumbsup
 

for_his_glory

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How does that relate to needing the mark in order to buy or sell?
At that time described in Rev 13 the economics in all nations will be controlled by this Luciferien system who I believe will have their own type of currency that those who wish to buy and sell will need this type of currency as they bow down and worship this beast.
 

jasonc

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That's 4, not 7.

There is no Roman Empire today.

The actual known history of these tribes is much more complicated than this over-simplification.
For example; the "English" are not the modern "Anglo-Saxons." The English are comprised of Celts, Britons, Scots, Picts, Romans, Danes, Norwegians, Normans, and a few Spaniards thrown in for flavor.
The "Germans" included; Huns, Goths, Visigoths, Ostrogoths, Vandals, Gauls, Welsh, Teutons, Franks and a host of others. They were all Germanic tribes.

AH! "The overthrow of the Papacy"
The 7th Day Adventist's explanation to who the antichrist will be.
Same old KATH-lick bashing baloney and people still fall for it.

No it's not. There is no example of the word "woman" being used to mean "church" in the NT.
I could be wrong. Do you have a citation?

Rev 12:5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.
The Church did not bear a male child. The male Child created the Church. (And the male child is obviously Christ Who is described here)
The woman who bore the male child who will rule all nations with a rod of iron is the Virgin Mary.
And, yes, there are many who will conclude that the woman clothed in the sun is the church. It's a stretch, imo.

The great harlot is a woman and, therefore, cannot be a son.

There was no America ca. 90AD.
America is now often thrown into the mix primarily for sensationalism. More accurately, it would be said to include the rulers and merchants of all nations in existence in the 1st century and for all centuries to come.

I believe the woman represents the world economic system which makes a small minority very rich (merchants) and powerful (rulers) at the expense of the masses of us commoners. That's why it is the merchants who mourn at her destruction.

The Revelation is packed with fascinating details of the end of the age. You have presented a sample of one interpretation among many.

For that, thank you.

I personally have a dislike for presentations in which the expositor tells exactly what each symbol means and exactly who all the players are (usually accompanied by charts and PowerPoint presentations) because, quite simply, we don't really know and we cannot accurately pinpoint them. The names of the players change over time according to the current events and the ebb and flow of opinions. So, the "antichrist" (a name not found anywhere in the Revelation) has been "definitely" identified as; Nero, the King of Spain, Napoleon, Mussolini, and the Pope (of course! We mustn't forget the pope!) among others.

Here's the most important question for believers: When Christ returns, will He find you faithfully obeying His commands?

Whether anyone knew who's who and what's what will be of no interest to the Judge of mankind when He judges. He will judge each and every one of us according to our works and not by what we think we know.

Blessed is that servant who is found doing his master's will when his master returns.

I'll wander off now and leave you alone. :wave

iakov the fool
cough, ,much of our constitution is based on the napelonic code. that means America was founded on the devil! surely that cant be!
 

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cough, ,much of our constitution is based on the napelonic code. that means America was founded on the devil! surely that cant be!
Our constitution is most definitely NOT based on Napoleonic Code. (Which assumes you are guilty until proven innocent.)
It is based on English law and Natural law.
The rebels revolted because they were not being treated as Englishmen with the rights of Englishmen under English law.
See: http://www.latinorebels.com/2012/07/04/the-declaration-of-independence-the-full-text-in-english-and-spanish/
 

jasonc

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Our constitution is most definitely NOT based on Napoleonic Code. (Which assumes you are guilty until proven innocent.)
It is based on English law and Natural law.
The rebels revolted because they were not being treated as Englishmen with the rights of Englishmen under English law.
See: http://www.latinorebels.com/2012/07/04/the-declaration-of-independence-the-full-text-in-english-and-spanish/
the napeolonic code didn't but since it was in 1804,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleonic_Code
 

Jim Parker

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the napeolonic code didn't but since it was in 1804,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleonic_Code
I don't understand what you mean by that. You did not complete your thought.
The declaration of independence is dated 1776
The constitution was ratified in 1788.
The Code Napoleon was established in France in 1804. That's 16 years after our constitution was ratified and it was written some time before that.

In conclusion, it is not possible that the Code Napoleon could have had an influence on the Constitution of the US since it did not exist at the time.

:shrug
 

Randy

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I am not sure what the beast is. The first one rises up out of the sea (R 13:1) and the second one rises out of the earth (v11) and convinces those on earth to make an image of the first beast and to give it breath (possible computer animation). Then we must have the "mark" of him on us before we can buy or sell.

verse 8 says ALL who dwell on earth will worship the first beast. That's scary to me.
My take
To me the beast out of the sea is a fallen angel currently imprisoned and released out of the abyss in the days of the sounding of the 5th trump of God. The beast out of the earth is a man noted as the false prophet who acts and performs signs in behalf of the beast that comes out of the abyss. The beast or angel of the abyss is in the same league as Satan. The dragon who stood on the shore awaiting the arrival of the beast who comes up from the sea or abyss.

The false prophet who looks like a lamb but has two horns is a master of deceit. I believe he is the man of lawlessness that Paul spoke of and He is the one performing signs and wonders that deceive the world into following the beast. And like a hitler once He is in power he's in power and will use his power and authority to force the rich and poor the small and great to worship the image of the beast he sets up. He will invade many countries including the Holy land he will be successful until his allotted time has run out. (42 months) Then suddenly like a thief in the night Jesus will appear with His faithful followers and the armies of heaven and the beast and the false prophet ae captured and thrown into the lake of fire. Jesus ushers in everlasting righteousness and the kingdom of the whole world becomes the kingdom of God and His Christ. -Judgment in favor of the saints of the most High. From defeat at the hands of the beast to victory.
 

for_his_glory

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Those two comments seem to be contradictory.
Please clarify for me.
No contradiction as this Luciferian NWO will seem to change the times and laws, Daniel 7:25, and will be self governed without election with their own economic system and some type of currency unlike our money we use today to buy and sell.

Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. 16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: 17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. 18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

There are many theories about what this mark of the beast is, but yet no one truly knows, but only speculates. When I say IMO that is speculation only as what I said about it being the thoughts of the mind (forehead) and the actions of the hand (right hand). I believe this mark only to be a symbolic number of the beast being a man as scripture says and not a literal 666 as being a chip or tattoo as many believe it to be in order to buy and sell.
 

for_his_glory

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To me the beast out of the sea is a fallen angel currently imprisoned and released out of the abyss in the days of the sounding of the 5th trump of God.
The only problem with this is that Rev 9:1-12 mentions nothing of an angel coming out of the pit, but only locust who are given instruction to not hurt those who are sealed by God.
 

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