How do you think outsiders view us?

[Obadiah]

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <wunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <wontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> You know in the short time I’ve been part of this forum I’ve been in and read quite a few threads now. I’ve been noticing the general demeanor and attitude of Christians here and thinking about our testimony to the world in general. To be honest, I’m concerned about our testimony when I see the amount of arguing just for the sake of arguing, and the amount of personal insults and derogatory comments that are so often hurled back and forth here even though the TOS specifically says this isn’t allowed. And once that gets started, it’s just so easy to get sucked into it and it turns into a vicious circle until a moderator has to step in and delete comments or completely close threads. In just a couple of months I’ve seen this happen over and over here.

I’m also a motorcycle rider and have actively been part of a motorcycle forum for several years now. It’s specific to Harley Davidson motorcycles, so there are quite a few of the 1%er types active on it. (For those unfamiliar, among hard core biker types the term 1% refers to the estimated 1% of all motorcycle riders that are hard core criminals. Those who are part of this 1% group, Hells Angles types, etc, wear this as a badge of honor.) So we’re talking about a forum frequented by some pretty “low down†people that most on here would probably turn their noses up at and disassociate from them. (Usually arrogantly citing all kinds of scripture to justify this.)

So how does this group of bikers act in comparison? In the many years I have been very active in that forum, I haven’t seen one argument. Not ONE! Sure, they’ve disagreed on some things, but it’s with an attitude that is more like “Well, I just never saw it that way†and it ends. When they insult each other or put each other down, it’s done in a spirit of joking and good fun and everyone laughs, including the recipient. In all my years there I have NEVER seen a moderator have to step in and give any warnings, delete any posts, and certainly never saw any threads closed due to the members’ bad behaviour.

I really think Christians in general need to take heed to this. And I’m not just talking about this forum. I see this behaviour in so many other Christian groups too. If I were asked to point out a group that exemplifies the attitudes of Jesus the best, I’m sadly afraid that the biker forum, despite all their shortcomings, does a better job of it than this forum does. How are we supposed to be a good testimony to the world, and to spread what we like to call “good news†in a way that makes others want to have what we have, when they look at us and what they see in comparison to the rest of the world is petty arguing, name calling, and hate mongering?

Just wanted to throw this out as food for thought from the first impressions of a newer member here.
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[WIP]

 

[Knotical]

Well put, Obadiah. I think many times when a Christian, and I have been guilty of this in the past, discovers a certain truth that they had been ignorant to in the past they suddenly think everyone else should already know this, and if they don't they are somehow less of a Christian because of it. Thankfully, God has seen fit to place me and my family in a very hospitable church family where we feel accepted and not judged. Which is interesting since it is part of a much more conservative denomination than others out there.

To a point there is some light-heartedness in areas of this forum, but I do agree that there is too much infighting over theology and doctrines, and by too much I mean that it happens at all. Our goal should be to find unity amongst ourselves so we can then come to a common ground on what our true calling is, that being the Great Commission.

 

[childeye]

I appreciate this thread. There is a barrier between people wherein trust is needed. Hence there is a prince of the power of the air and it is in this unknown, which we call a darkness, where Satan sows division using the semantics inherent in language. So that what one person says is then twisted and altered to mean in the hearers mind what was not intended by the speaker.

For example suppose a person said, let's just agree to disagree while the other person wants to agree to agree. That is a conundrum since it is left arguable as to who is more agreeable. What we believe to be true will determine what spirits will live in us. But I am certain it is incumbant upon the more mature in Christ to have more patience and gentleness than the babes.

Nonetheless, one must not abandon the speaking of the Truth because it will be offensive. So it is inevitable that wherever the Truth is being discussed, the devil will be there trying to confound what people say and cause division through misunderstanding. No doubt people will see us as a bunch of people who all think they are right. Ironically that would be a hypocritical statement that brings about a bitter view of Christianity, and it is therefore the devil.

 

[Deborah13]

I agree with both of you but....a debate thread is about debating. There is nothing wrong about debating our different theologies in my opinion.

Never ever should it deteriorate to name calling and abuse.

 

[Knotical]

What's there to debate. You are all just supposed to agree with me. ;)

 

[Obadiah]

In my post above, I am referring to name calling, personal insults, and accusations such as questioning someones faith in God over issues that don't actually indicate their faith or lack of faith. I'm not referring to a proper debate, which should adress the issues without resorting to personal attacks. Among the secular bikers I see polite debates and polite disagreements, but not personal attacks. Here I see personal attacks on many. many subjects where people disagree. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think we have any excuse for this to be so out of proportion to a secular group which has a number of members who are proud to be low life criminals.

 

[Knotical]

Of course not, which as mods and admins we watch for these kinds of things and try to put an end to them. The spirit of this site has always been to be an open and honest forum to discuss/debate different topics in a respectful and considerate manner. It is unfortunate that there are those who try to use it to push their own agendas by using bullying, or other derogatory means.

 

[childeye]

In my post above, I am referring to name calling, personal insults, and accusations such as questioning someones faith in God over issues that don't actually indicate their faith or lack of faith. I'm not referring to a proper debate, which should adress the issues without resorting to personal attacks. Among the secular bikers I see polite debates and polite disagreements, but not personal attacks. Here I see personal attacks on many. many subjects where people disagree. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think we have any excuse for this to be so out of proportion to a secular group which has a number of members who are proud to be low life criminals.

There is an excuse. There is a devil confounding peoples sentiments and causing others to hear what was not intended. Or let me put it this way. How can we intercede for our enemies when we believe there is no excuse? While I know resorting to name calling may seem unnecessary, Jesus did call people names. Jesus pulled no punches calling people wicked vipers, dogs, pigs,liars, children of the devil, etc... I am not advocating that we should call others names.

Speaking of the devil, I sincerekly appreciate your intentions and sentiments in starting this thread.

 

[Knotical]

There is an excuse. There is a devil confounding peoples sentiments and causing others to hear what was not intended. Or let me put it this way. How can we intercede for our enemies when we believe there is no excuse? While I know resorting to name calling may seem unnecessary, Jesus did call people names. Jesus pulled no punches calling people wicked vipers, dogs, pigs,liars, children of the devil, etc...

The difference here is that Jesus was completely righteous in his judgement of those whom he was referring. We, as fallible humans, do not have that kind of authority.

 

[Obadiah]

I was just reminded of a conversation I just had yesterday that sort of relates to this problem of Christian rudeness and backstabbing. My friend repairs and sometimes builds or refurbishes computers. He's good enough at it to be making a living off of it. He's also a long time Christian. My church needs another computer, so I asked him if he happened to have any on hand he was selling that would meet their needs. He quickly and emphatically said "No. I won't sell anything to churches anymore." I asked why, and he explained he can't tolerate the constant complaining and bickering he has to put up with every time he deals with Christians. I think this goes along with the same attitudes we seem to have that cause the problems I've mentioned above, and these things are seen by the outside world very clearly.

If we want the outside world to look at Christianity as something desirable, shouldn't we be trying to clean up our act a little?

 

[childeye]

The difference here is that Jesus was completely righteous in his judgement of those whom he was referring. We, as fallible humans, do not have that kind of authority.

I am in no position to say what authority someone has since a lot has to do with the circumstances. I am saying that sometimes it is incumbant upon us to be gentle and also sometimes to be bold. The golden rule is our guide to love others as you would want to be loved. Some people don't like to be patronized and so they don't patronize anybody.

 

[childeye]

I was just reminded of a conversation I just had yesterday that sort of relates to this problem of Christian rudeness and backstabbing. My friend repairs and sometimes builds or refurbishes computers. He's good enough at it to be making a living off of it. He's also a long time Christian. My church needs another computer, so I asked him if he happened to have any on hand he was selling that would meet their needs. He quickly and emphatically said "No. I won't sell anything to churches anymore." I asked why, and he explained he can't tolerate the constant complaining and bickering he has to put up with every time he deals with Christians. I think this goes along with the same attitudes we seem to have that cause the problems I've mentioned above, and these things are seen by the outside world very clearly.

If we want the outside world to look at Christianity as something desirable, shouldn't we be trying to clean up our act a little?

Yes that is of course good advice, but not so simple to accomplish. I am one of those who have had harsh dealings with churches and doctrines. Again, I reiterate what you have not addressed. There is a devil confounding what good people are saying with loving intent.

 

[Obadiah]

...Again, I reiterate what you have not addressed. There is a devil confounding what good people are saying with loving intent.

Sorry, I didn't realize you were asking me to address this. But it seems to me that the devil works in all people. Since we have a "greater power" in us, why is it that the secular bikers in my example above seem to be so much better at resisting him than us Christians?

 

[childeye]

Sorry, I didn't realize you were asking me to address this. But it seems to me that the devil works in all people. Since we have a "greater power" in us, why is it that the secular bikers in my example above seem to be so much better at resisting him than us Christians?

Thanks Obadiah for noticing me. Yes the devil is in the air confounding the Truth wherever it is being spoken. So it is that the bikers may not be hitting upon the Truth so there is no controversy. After all it benefits the lie for everyone to say I don't know what the Truth is even though that ends any will to debate. Wherever great good is happening great evil is present.

 

[Dustoftheearth]

Whilst one the one hand I can fully agree with the OP, especially the personal insults, I also think that in Christian forums, the topics are often far more of a serious nature.

There are certain beliefs expressed that can destroy or shipwreck the faith and conscience, of another brother or sister. They can put a yoke on their necks, and bound them up. They can set them on a wrong path, and cause them to be fruitless etc..

When we love the brethren, we can become very protective of them, like you would your flesh kin.

 

[childeye]

Whilst one the one hand I can fully agree with the OP, especially the personal insults, I also think that in Christian forums, the topics are often far more of a serious nature.

There are certain beliefs expressed that can destroy or shipwreck the faith and conscience, of another brother or sister. They can put a yoke on their necks, and bound them up. They can set them on a wrong path, and cause them to be fruitless etc..

When we love the brethren, we can become very protective of them, like you would your flesh kin.

Well said, this is really serious stuff.

 

[Obadiah]

Whilst one the one hand I can fully agree with the OP, especially the personal insults, I also think that in Christian forums, the topics are often far more of a serious nature.

There are certain beliefs expressed that can destroy or shipwreck the faith and conscience, of another brother or sister. They can put a yoke on their necks, and bound them up. They can set them on a wrong path, and cause them to be fruitless etc..

When we love the brethren, we can become very protective of them, like you would your flesh kin.

I personally agree with you that many of the subjects here are very serious to us. But that's from my perspective. To a life long 1%er biker, their perspective of their life style is just as serious to them as Christianity is to us. Yet they don't resort to the insults that some of us do. Or at least if they do, it's very rare. I know that's hard to fathom for us, but I've been around these people for more than 30 years and on the internet with them for over 5 years now.

I guess maybe I'm way off base in my observations then, but it just didn't seem like the seriousness of a subject is an appropriate excuse for verbal abuse and rudeness. Especially when outsiders are watching!

So I guess in answer to my original question, Childeye, you and Dustoftheearth both feel that we look ok to outsiders? Not perfect, but at least ok enough?

 

[WIP]

I agree with both of you but....a debate thread is about debating. There is nothing wrong about debating our different theologies in my opinion.

Never ever should it deteriorate to name calling and abuse.

The difficulty that I have seen is that too often the debate becomes about winning points for one side (our own) and not learning from the debate. Too often the focus is on getting one up on the other person. Sounds prideful when I see it.

 

[farouk]

Obadiah:

Fact is today, if a group of leather-clad bikers arrives at a Cracker Barrel parking lot someplace, they are just as likely (or even more likely?) to be a group of deacons' wives out for a weekend run, as they are Hell's Angels, or gang members.

(Two cents'.)