Oh My, Are You Sure You’re Really Born of God?

[Eugene]

Oh My, Are You Sure You’re Really Born of God?

Joh 8:11 . . Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

1 Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1 Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not . . .

 

[Eugene]

WHAT???
Let me see here, my sin was accidental.
Eugene, are you really serious?
Well, I had to not be subject to the ordained power of God and break the speed limits; I was late for work.
I'm sorry Father, I'm glad I could confess before I died so that I'm not damned. Rom 13:2.

Go and sin no more? Jn 8:11. But I've got an out, all I've got to do is confess that sin you told me to do no more. 1 Jn 1:9.

 

[Jim Parker]

Oh My, Are You Sure You’re Really Born of God?
Joh 8:11 . . Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
1 Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1 Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not . . .

You have not stated what you conclude from these scriptures.
Please show how they answer the question, "Are you sure you are really born of God?"

 

[Malachi]

1 Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not . . .
The one who is born of God abandons his/her sinful lifestyle and does not purse sinful behavior or engage in sinful thoughts deliberately. That does not mean that he/or she will not sin at all.

 

[K2CHRIST]

There is a problem of understanding that can come in a thread like this. I have seen it before. We see some verses that say "that whosoever is born of God sinneth not..." and the verse is indeed correct but the understanding of it might not be. It needs to be balanced with other verses like this.

Rm 4:19,20 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

and this

1 Jn 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

The truth is that we all have a battle with sin that rages in us. We do indeed battle with the dark forces of this world, and sometimes people lose that battle, but Jesus didn't lose that battle, so we have salvation and freedom through Him. That is not a freedom to want sin, but it is a freedom the eternal effect of sin in us.

So Paul wrote as a conclusion Rm 8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

If you are desiring to sin and thus going after sin, then you have a problem and Christ might not be in you. On the other hand if you are thinking you don't have a battle with sin then the truth is not in you either. You are just deceiving yourself. The truth is that we have a battle because we as Christian are not in agreement with sin which we have in us, and so we see that principle.

Rm 7:27 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.

Just because it is present in us, it doesn't mean we should give into it, but if we don't realize that it is present we are just deceiving ourselves! So I am all for threads that are against sin. But if the thread promotes self deception and condemnation of saints, well that is not correct either.

 

[JohnDB]

1 Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not . . .
The one who is born of God abandons his/her sinful lifestyle and does not purse sinful behavior or engage in sinful thoughts deliberately. That does not mean that he/or she will not sin at all.

Peter and Paul had an argument over what exactly?
Didn't Peter deliberately persue his actions which led to the "discussion"?

Then on top of this is the story of the Prodigal Son. Now sure this is only a story but the human action within it is well inside the norm of human choices.

 

[Jim Parker]

1 Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not . . .
The one who is born of God abandons his/her sinful lifestyle and does not purse sinful behavior or engage in sinful thoughts deliberately. That does not mean that he/or she will not sin at all.

right

 

[Eugene]

You have not stated what you conclude from these scriptures.
Please show how they answer the question, "Are you sure you are really born of God?"

I have asked a simple question using scripture. What makes you think you are saved if you are? I added a few scriptures many seem to use maybe as detractors as to why they may not be saved. E.g. Jn 3:16 is no guarantee, eternal means conditional, etc.

 

[Eugene]

1 Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not . . .
The one who is born of God abandons his/her sinful lifestyle and does not purse sinful behavior or engage in sinful thoughts deliberately. That does not mean that he/or she will not sin at all.

Abandoning our former lifestyles is certainly a good thing with most, but doesn't this have much to do with accidental sin versus deliberate sin? Sin remains sin, and if read in Romans Chapter Thirteen we're still to obey the laws of our lands; God put those people in power for our good. In Romans Chapter Seven Paul had battles with the old nature and sin, but in Rom 8:1 he concludes that there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. In all this how was Paul being kept in a not sinning condition so that he could write these following words?
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

 

[Eugene]

If you are desiring to sin and thus going after sin, then you have a problem and Christ might not be in you.

Then I would ask if when you sin are you doing it accidently or on purpose. The very fact you don't want to sin is one of the signs you may be born of God wouldn't you think? Paul found him doing the very thing he hated in Rom 7:15.

Just because it is present in us, it doesn't mean we should give into it, but if we don't realize that it is present we are just deceiving ourselves!

And so if you realize you sin that is the sign the law has done what it is designed to do according to Rom 7:7. Then how do we come to the realization of the no condemnation of Rom 8:1? How do you really know you are really saved; is it because you don't give in to sin?

 

[Malachi]

And so if you realize you sin that is the sign the law has done what it is designed to do according to Rom 7:7. Then how do we come to the realization of the no condemnation of Rom 8:1? How do you really know you are really saved; is it because you don't give in to sin?

If we don't balance all the Scriptures properly, we will not arrive at the proper understanding of this matter.

1. The Law exposes the nature of sin -- that it is a transgression against God.

2. The indwelling sin nature (the "old man" or "the flesh") has a tendency to sin, and must be (and can be) *mortified" (put to death) or *crucified* daily. Therefore it cannot dominate the one who is born of God.

3. The Holy Spirit empowers the believer to *walk in the Spirit*, therefore it is God who works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.

4. While Christians will sin (because the flesh has not been eradicated) their position in Christ does not change. God sees them as righteous. As righteous as God Himself. This is the imputed righteousness of Christ.

5. Therefore there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, who will also choose to walk in the Spirit rather than fulfil the lusts of the flesh. Thus those who name the name of Christ are commanded to depart from iniquity.

 

[Jim Parker]

I have asked a simple question using scripture.

There was no clear connection between the scriptures you posted and your question.
That's why I asked for clarification.

E.g. Jn 3:16 is no guarantee, eternal means conditional,

Eternal does not mean conditional. The Life is eternal. The having is not.
Otherwise, Jn 3:16 would say "eternally has eternal life."

 

[K2CHRIST]

Then I would ask if when you sin are you doing it accidently or on purpose.

Because as a Christian I am aware of good and evil I no longer think I am the one sinning. It is a battle!

Rm 7:20 ... I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me

(I believe I quoted that verse above. So I am not sure why you are asking the question. Perhaps you missed the fact that we are no longer the one doing it?)

The problem with the thread is that it fails to take into account the battle. It shows a lack of understanding of the battle with powers and principalities.

We ask how do we know we are born of God and completely forget about what Jesus said.

Jn 3:7,8 Do not be amazed that I said to you, "You must be born again.' The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.

If you are born again (or from above as some have it) you start hearing with your spiritual hears. With that you start becoming aware of both good and evil. Paul had become aware of it, that is why he knew that sin was messing with him. You don't get it all figured out right away, but with practice you get better at discerning between good and evil.

Heb 5:11 , 14 Concerning him we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing... but solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

Of course if you become aware of good and evil you know not to go about following evil. It might slip up and get tricked sometimes, but that just the learning from practice as I just discussed. As a result you should be learning to talk to the Lord more, and pay more attention with your spiritual ears. The strange part about listening more is that the Lord reproves those He loves. So the more you listen the more you are aware of how you fall short, and more aware of the battle going on in the spirit realm around you.

Paul was more aware of the spirit realm and of his battle than you and I!!

Rm 7:23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind

and that awareness causes him to write,

"Wretched man that I am!"(Rm 7:24)

But then again, the hearing and following the Lord also enabled Him to see the victory in Jesus Christ

Rm 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So being born from above (again) means an awareness of the spirit realm around us. We are aware of good and evil. Thus we try to set or mind on the Spirit, but there is still a battle. And those born from above are aware of that!! That awareness makes us better, not worse, but it also makes us understand our short comings better which should make us more understanding with others!!

The problem with many of these type of threads is that they come on as condemning people instead of encouraging them. They tend to come across as "You sinners, you don't know God", instead of getting people to honestly consider their relationship with God![/QUOTE]

 

[Eugene]

While Christians will sin (because the flesh has not been eradicated) their position in Christ does not change. God sees them as righteous. As righteous as God Himself. This is the imputed righteousness of Christ.

Agreed, and when our Father looks on us He sees the righteousness of Jesus; that new nature in us that cannot sin.

Therefore there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, who will also choose to walk in the Spirit rather than fulfil the lusts of the flesh.

Scofield note on Rom 8:1. The statement ends with "Christ Jesus"; the last ten words are interpolated. In other words it should read as: "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus!" (additional note) The last ten words were evidently copied from v.4, where they express the result of "no condemnation," not its cause.

Thus those who name the name of Christ are commanded to depart from iniquity.

And at its worst, in your estimation is that a sin unto physical death, or loss of salvation? Would you still be saved if you went over the speed limit daily while knowing you're not supposed to? Rom 13:5.

 

[Eugene]

being born from above (again) means an awareness of the spirit realm around us. We are aware of good and evil. Thus we try to set or mind on the Spirit, but there is still a battle. And those born from above are aware of that!! That awareness makes us better, not worse, but it also makes us understand our short comings better which should make us more understanding with others!!

Do you possibly consider that this occurs with the instruction of 2 Pet 3:18, But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. To me it should, but many continue to struggle with the grace we have in Christ as if they are the one responsible for their own salvation.

The problem with many of these type of threads is that they come on as condemning people instead of encouraging them. They tend to come across as "You sinners, you don't know God", instead of getting people to honestly consider their relationship with God!

I certainly hope not. I came out of a religion where there was never certainty of our destination with God, and it should not be that way with us. We ought to be the most joyous and sure people of faith God has. There is instruction pertaining to such a relationship with God reminding me of Gal 4:1. Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all. Now they are received of God as much as me, and yet never learn that they are not the keeper of themselves, but it is God who loved us enough to give Jesus for us that keeps us. If we are born of God, we are born of God, and there should be nothing keeping us from always going boldly before our Father's throne for grace and help in our time of need. Heb 4:16.

Rom 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
Rom 14:2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
Rom 14:3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
I believe it was you mentioning the fact of Php 2:13. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Hopefully with such an examination of our faith different threads present us we can be of help to them who think they are saved one moment and lost the next. Thanks for your input.

 

[smaller]

WHAT???
Let me see here, my sin was accidental.
Eugene, are you really serious?
Well, I had to not be subject to the ordained power of God and break the speed limits; I was late for work.
I'm sorry Father, I'm glad I could confess before I died so that I'm not damned. Rom 13:2.

Go and sin no more? Jn 8:11. But I've got an out, all I've got to do is confess that sin you told me to do no more. 1 Jn 1:9.

Paul, post salvation:

1 Timothy 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Paul, post salvation:

1 Corinthians 15:34
Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

Ephesians 4:26
Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:

How do we possibly harmonize these openly viewed conflicting statements. Both can not possibly be true with surface quotients. That is what harmony

John presents a similar paradox/dilemma. I'd suggest these are purposeful conflicting statements from both Paul and John:

1 John 1:
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1 John 3:6
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

These surface conflicts are quite easily resolved WHEN we get all the parties to SIN on the table for viewing.

We know for example this fact about sin.

1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Jesus introduced Satan, the devil, into the equations of sin right here:

Mark 4:
15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

It is entirely pointless to view matters of sin or the Word apart from HOW the Word is structured in it's presentations. And that structure places TWO PARTIES into the picture of MAN. Just as here, with Paul:

2 Corinthians 12:
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

To harmonize scripture you have to be able to COUNT TO 2. Or to "divide" the parties in these equations into 1 and 1 equals 2 in MAN.

Unfortunately it is believers themselves who apparently can't see these things, which is an open testimony to the power of darkness that Satan does have on peoples MINDS. But there is actually another working involved. When this fact is exposed, Satan IN MAN becomes agitated, aroused and RESISTS the disclosures, and does so

in MAN.

So, the opening poster postures WHO ARE YOU?

I might ask, why don't you look with BOTH EYES and figure it out?

 

[K2CHRIST]

I certainly hope not. I came out of a religion where there was never certainty of our destination with God, and it should not be that way with us.

We do need to know for certain that we are going to heaven. I would suggest that the best way for that is to look for a close personal relationship with our Lord Jesus Christ. I believe that comes from having conversations with Him. (Prayer)

I know that is the way it is with me. I seek His voice. He does want things done right. He reproves me gently when I mess up. But even when I feel I mess up bad, like loosing my temper or get aggravated which I don't want to do but I have a battle also, He still is understanding. Sometimes I have told Him, "I don't think you can get me to heaven", and He calmly tells me to get over it because I am going there. So isn't Him tell you that your going to heaven the best way of knowing where you are going.

I have to put my faith in Him. I have to believe at least He knows what He is talking about. So it is not about being good enough, though He has me working on being better. It is about our relationship with Him, and that requires listening to Him. Being born again means hearing the wind (the Spirit). And better behavior is a result of hearing the Spirit also. Isn't that what Paul meant by:

Rm 8:6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace.

 

[Eugene]

We do need to know for certain that we are going to heaven. I would suggest that the best way for that is to look for a close personal relationship with our Lord Jesus Christ. I believe that comes from having conversations with Him. (Prayer)

I know that is the way it is with me. I seek His voice. He does want things done right. He reproves me gently when I mess up. But even when I feel I mess up bad, like loosing my temper or get aggravated which I don't want to do but I have a battle also, He still is understanding. Sometimes I have told Him, "I don't think you can get me to heaven", and He calmly tells me to get over it because I am going there. So isn't Him tell you that your going to heaven the best way of knowing where you are going.

I have to put my faith in Him. I have to believe at least He knows what He is talking about. So it is not about being good enough, though He has me working on being better. It is about our relationship with Him, and that requires listening to Him. Being born again means hearing the wind (the Spirit). And better behavior is a result of hearing the Spirit also. Isn't that what Paul meant by:

Rm 8:6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace.

Amen. There's a hymn, "Faith is the victory," and that in part is the peace that passes understanding. Now we do not continue in sin that grace may abound (Rom 6:1), but it is not works of righteousness by us that ensures our salvation; that is the evidence of it in many cases.

 

[Eugene]

1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Does that give any indication of Who is doing the keeping if we read in 1 Jn 5:18, We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but He that is begotten of God (Who is this - Jesus?) keepeth himself, and that wicked one (Satan) toucheth him not.

 

[K2CHRIST]

Oh My, Are You Sure You’re Really Born of God?

Let's answer this question.

Of course we live by faith. I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. I call Him that because I hear from Him. We talk. And because of that relationship I am convinced I am going to heaven. It's not because I don't sin, it is because of who I know.

Moses talked to the Lord. He had a relationship with Him. He saw miracles, but those were because of the relationship. The Lord told Moses do this and that, Moses did it, and God did incredible things. Don't you think Moses believed he would be in heaven. Maybe not always though! What about when God told Moses he was not going to cross over to the promised land because he did not listen to the Rock while talking to the people. He might have doubted then, but we see Moses at the mountain of transfiguration. He made it.! So it is reasonable to figure that if you and I get a relationship with the Jesus Christ, and wind up calling Him Lord because, like Moses, we do this and that for Him and see incredible things proving He is God, we too will wind up in heaven even if we don't do everything right.

Abraham knew the Lord, but he didn't do everything right, and he is in heaven. We see in Gen 15 that Abraham's belief was counted to him as righteousness. And it was that same belief that created a relationship with the Lord. They wound up eating together.

Elijah was at the mountain of transfiguration with Moses, and he too knew the Lord. The Lord told Him to do this and that, and so he did, and miracles followed. You just gotta figure that when you get to know the Lord and do what he says and see the miracles that follow that you too will be in heaven. That is what we see in happening in the Bible.

So the key to knowing you are really born of God is knowing God!! It's about the relationship!!

Perhaps we all doubt it at some point. I have, especially when that devil gets the better of me and I get angry, or depress, or anxious. And because I talk to the Lord I told Him "How the heck are you going to get me to heaven Lord?" He responded, "Get over it Karl, Your going! Now let us see what we can do about your problems."

I have heard that enough now that question of me getting to heaven doesn't come up much anymore, but He is still working on me.