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Proof of Trinity

childeye

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I don't really have a clue what you believe and what you don't believe.
Well spoken. The fact that you said both "what you believe and what you don't believe" causes me to smile.
Why do you say "before it was written it was true" ?
I wrote it in response to "thus it is written, and cannot be changed". In other words I see the scriptures as testimony to the Eternal Spirit.
 

Free

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I've read Arius's letter to Eusebius. In all honesty, I don't see Arius claiming what you have said. In fact he indicates that he was being persecuted by people who claimed what you are claiming. He also indicates he is being misconstrued.
From the letter:

But we say and believe, and have taught, and do teach, that the Son is not unbegotten, nor in any way part of the unbegotten; and that He does not derive His subsistence from any matter; but that by His own will and counsel He has subsisted before time, and before ages, as perfect God, only begotten and unchangeable, and that before He was begotten, or created, or purposed, or established, He was not. For He was not unbegotten. We are persecuted, because we say that the Son has a beginning, but that God is without beginning. This is the cause of our persecution, and likewise, because we say that He is of the non-existent. And this we say, because He is neither part of God, nor of any essential being. For this are we persecuted; the rest you know. I bid thee farewell in the Lord, remembering our afflictions, my fellow-Lucianist, and true Eusebius.”
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf203.iv.viii.i.v.html

This clearly supports what I've been saying, what all his opponents were saying. Arius believed there was a time when the Son was not, "that the Son has a beginning."

Free said:
The Son has always existed, whether as the Word or in human flesh. He either is God (the Son) and creator, as the Bible states, or he is not God and a mere creature,
What you state as either or, is a false dichotomy. Why Can't Jesus be both the expression of God, and yet born flesh and blood, just like you and me? We are talking Spirit here.
It is not at all a false dichotomy. Either Jesus is fully God, which means he has always existed in some form, or he is not God.

[nother thing, you say Jesus is the Creator rather than God's means and purpose of creation. Note the bible says all things were made by him as pertaining to the term "The Word". If I maintain that the Word is the means and purpose of all creation, then the word "by" would imply this. These are the usage of the word "by" from the blue letter bible lexicon taken from John. They imply the Word is the means and purpose of creation not the Creator who spoke the Word.
  1. through
    1. of place
    2. with
    3. in
  2. of time
    1. throughout
    2. during
    • of means
      1. by
      2. by the means of
    • through
    1. the ground or reason by which something is or is not done
    2. by reason of
    3. on account of
    4. because of for this reason
    5. therefore
    6. on this account
You are getting too caught up in small things and missing the bigger picture. The point is, the Son was in some way involved in the creation of everything (which implies he is God), so there is no difference if "by him" or "through him" is used.

Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through him and for him.
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. (ESV)

The Word, as used in John 1, is clearly the pre-incarnate Son. This is in perfect agreement with John 1:1-3 and 1 Cor 8:6.
 

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God requires honesty and humility. In all honesty, if God asked me if a Father precedes his son, I would obviously have to say yes without splitting hairs. Why are the terms Father and son used in the Trinity if there is nothing implied there? Doesn't it mean the son comes from the Father? That Spirit begets Spirit?
Because there cannot be a Father if there is no Son. They are simply the human terms best suited for God to reveal himself to us but they don't necessarily mean that one came before the other.
 

childeye

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From the letter:


http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf203.iv.viii.i.v.html

This clearly supports what I've been saying, what all his opponents were saying. Arius believed there was a time when the Son was not, "that the Son has a beginning."
Free, I wish to say that any hatred of others is caused by pride. And that differences can arise that stir up pride and cause division. Anytime we hate someone it is not of God. Why? Because there is a Truth, that I hope all men will eventually submit to, that is Eternal. And in that Truth we all have peaceful fellowship in the Love that is God.

I therefore feel it would be prudent to point out that there are more than one translation of this letter. Moreover, I can find misunderstandings on both sides of this issue. Indeed there are even more issues with these words in this letter that I can bring forth which are not even discussed. For example, if I were to say, "Christ is not any part of God", it would be hard to tell whether I meant Christ is fully God, or not God at all. That is what I mean by the problem with semantics and how the devil can use them to cause division.

I believe Arius is saying this: He is begotten, therefore he had a beginning as a man conceived in the mind of the Almighty before time began. This can only refer to the Christ, the son of man conceived of a virgin, or, the Word "made" flesh. I will assume you hear him saying the Word is not eternal, without beginning, so Jesus is not divine but only mere man.

I feel Arius actually speaks of before he was made flesh in this manner: "that He does not derive His subsistence from any matter; but that by His own will and counsel He has subsisted before time, and before ages, as perfect God, only begotten and unchangeable,"


It is not at all a false dichotomy. Either Jesus is fully God, which means he has always existed in some form, or he is not God.
I feel you almost said it right. This addition would make your statement correct in my view. Either Jesus is fully God, which means he has always existed in some form other than flesh, or he is not God.
But of course if you said it this way, I could agree and would agree.


You are getting too caught up in small things and missing the bigger picture. The point is, the Son was in some way involved in the creation of everything (which implies he is God), so there is no difference if "by him" or "through him" is used.
Respectfully, small things can make big differences, both good and bad. Therefore He is involved in some way in the creation, but in what way? By saying "through" the Word as in God spoke, He is the very power of creation. All things were created through him and for him, but he himself is conceived by God the Father Who spoke His Word.

Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through him and for him.
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. (ESV)

The Word, as used in John 1, is clearly the pre-incarnate Son. This is in perfect agreement with John 1:1-3 and 1 Cor 8:6.

For what it's worth, I feel that 1 Corinthians 8:6 is the right way to view the trinity. I agree that "The Word" as used in John 1 is clearly the pre-incarnate son. But John 1:14 is the Christ, the Word made flesh, the only begotten son of God. Not that there are two sons, but the Christ is perceived as the spirit of a man and God intertwined. Therefore he is the means and purpose of the creation. So again, allow me to add to what you say above; "The Word", as used in John 1, is clearly the pre-incarnate Son, the power and purpose of the creation, conceived and spoken by the Almighty God. Compare that to this:

1 Corinthians 8:6New International Version (NIV)
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
 
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childeye

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Because there cannot be a Father if there is no Son. They are simply the human terms best suited for God to reveal himself to us but they don't necessarily mean that one came before the other.
That is a valid point. But God could have an existence before ever speaking, He just wouldn't be a Father. And if He spoke He would have to make somebody to hear Him, etc... Eternal things are not easily held in our temporal reasoning. It is better to say we don't know when we don't know, than to desecrate with our inadequate speech, and condemn others over our self proclaimed mastery of godly things.
 
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jasonc

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That is a valid point. But God could have an existence before ever speaking, He just wouldn't be a Father. And if He spoke He would have to make somebody to hear Him, etc... Eternal things are not easily held in our temporal reasoning. It is better to say we don't know when we don't know, than to desecrate with our inadequate speech, and condemn others over our self proclaimed mastery of godly things.
that still would make the son a lower being. really you should pray about this, and stop trying to reason how the bible shows and supports the trinity. as I said it wasn't by logic, and argument that I believed in the trinity. yes god can use those but it still takes faith. ie how does an all power being, and immortal on at that die?
 

childeye

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that still would make the son a lower being. really you should pray about this, and stop trying to reason how the bible shows and supports the trinity. as I said it wasn't by logic, and argument that I believed in the trinity. yes god can use those but it still takes faith. ie how does an all power being, and immortal on at that die?
It doesn't make the son a lower being. How is that even possible? It is God Who spoke His Word. They are One and the same, the Father and the son, even as are we one in Christ. There is no such thing as being lower than God when you are His son. Note: We have the mind of Christ which counts it not sin to count one's self equal with God, yet submits himself as a servant to all. It is actually the Satanic image of god that measures who is greater than who. For Satan desires to be God.

An all powerful immortal being doesn't die. The Christ's flesh and blood were sacrificed, but the Christ never actually ceased to exist. Hence he says that he can lay down his life, and pick it up again.

I see nothing I need pray about. I have only glorified the Father.
 
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Randy

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Nothing you have given proves the doctrine of the Trinity false in any way whatsoever.

There are 3 that bear witness. Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

But the trinity goes further then that which you know.
Jesus always was and always was God - The Holy Spirit is a separate and distinct person from the Father. How so? As the Father states thats His Spirit. And that Spirit speaks what He hears and searches the deep thoughts of God. Jesus never states the HS is His God or Father or His spirit.

Jesus states that the Father is the One true God. If Jesus always was and always was God how then DO YOU believe in ONE God for Jesus stated on the cross "Father into your hands I commit MY SPIRIT?"

The Firstborn of all creation - Always been the Son

The Fullness was pleased to dwell IN Him. - all that the Father is.

Jesus lives by the living Father - never dies

Randy
 

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But the trinity goes further then that which you know.
Jesus always was and always was God - The Holy Spirit is a separate and distinct person from the Father. How so? As the Father states thats His Spirit. And that Spirit speaks what He hears and searches the deep thoughts of God. Jesus never states the HS is His God or Father or His spirit.
The doctrine of the Trinity exists precisely because of what the Bible reveals about God--Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The Bible clearly shows that there is only one God. It also clearly shows that the Son has always existed. And clearly shown is that the Holy Spirit exhibits traits of personhood.

Rom 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

Rom 8:10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you. (ESV)

The Bible makes it clear that the Holy Spirit is known in more than one way, and one of those ways is Spirit of Christ.

Jesus states that the Father is the One true God. If Jesus always was and always was God how then DO YOU believe in ONE God for Jesus stated on the cross "Father into your hands I commit MY SPIRIT?"

The Firstborn of all creation - Always been the Son

The Fullness was pleased to dwell IN Him. - all that the Father is.

Jesus lives by the living Father - never dies

Randy
The doctrine of the Trinity reaffirms that there is one God and that this one Being exists as three coeternal persons.
 

Randy

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The doctrine of the Trinity exists precisely because of what the Bible reveals about God--Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The Bible clearly shows that there is only one God. It also clearly shows that the Son has always existed. And clearly shown is that the Holy Spirit exhibits traits of personhood.

Rom 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

Rom 8:10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you. (ESV)

The Bible makes it clear that the Holy Spirit is known in more than one way, and one of those ways is Spirit of Christ.


The doctrine of the Trinity reaffirms that there is one God and that this one Being exists as three coeternal persons.

The Spirit Jesus poured out was received from the Father. The Fathers promise Jesus spoke of. In me the Spirit would convey the mind and will of Jesus as it was sent in Jesus's name but it is the one and same Holy Spirit.

Jesus as the Son has His own mind, will and spirit. The Holy Spirit is the Fathers Spirit per the Father. Jesus never refers to the HS as His Spirit or His God.

The Holy Spirit bears witness but does not speak on His own. He speaks what He hears. Per Jesus.

Those that listen and learn from the FATHER go to the Son and Jesus will raise them up on the last day as that is the Fathers will. "They shall all be taught by GOD"

Peter answered Jesus's question "who do you say that I am" with "You are the Christ the Son of the Living God". Jesus stated Peter did not learn that from Man but from His Father in Heaven. The Holy Spirit bears witness. The Father has glorified and glorifies His Son and in the Son the Father is glorified. Jesus is how God chose to forgive sin. The Fathers terms and conditions of a new covenant. It is the Fathers command that every knee will bow and declare Jesus is Lord.



Randy
 

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The Spirit Jesus poured out was received from the Father. The Fathers promise Jesus spoke of. In me the Spirit would convey the mind and will of Jesus as it was sent in Jesus's name but it is the one and same Holy Spirit.

Jesus as the Son has His own mind, will and spirit. The Holy Spirit is the Fathers Spirit per the Father. Jesus never refers to the HS as His Spirit or His God.

The Holy Spirit bears witness but does not speak on His own. He speaks what He hears. Per Jesus.

Those that listen and learn from the FATHER go to the Son and Jesus will raise them up on the last day as that is the Fathers will. "They shall all be taught by GOD"

Peter answered Jesus's question "who do you say that I am" with "You are the Christ the Son of the Living God". Jesus stated Peter did not learn that from Man but from His Father in Heaven. The Holy Spirit bears witness. The Father has glorified and glorifies His Son and in the Son the Father is glorified. Jesus is how God chose to forgive sin. The Fathers terms and conditions of a new covenant. It is the Fathers command that every knee will bow and declare Jesus is Lord.
I am not sure how any of this is supposed to show that the Trinity is false.
 

JLB

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1 Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2 And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. 3 Then Moses said, "I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn." 4 So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, "Moses, Moses!" And he said, "Here I am." Exodus 3:1-4


Who was speaking here?


JLB
 

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Hebrews 9:14;

"How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God"!

Is this the Trinity all in one sentence?

Are you asking if God is three separate entities, spirits, beings?
 

Randy

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I am not sure how any of this is supposed to show that the Trinity is false.

I acknowledge the Father and Son and Holy Spirit the 3 that bear witness. The Holy Spirit that Jesus poured out was received from the Father. Its the Fathers promise and His Spirit. Sent in Jesus's name. I still don't see how you believe in One God since Jesus has His own spirit and you believe Jesus always was and always was God. I don't view the HS as a separate person with His own mind and will. I view the HS as the Fathers Spirit. Since the HS speaks what He hears no where in scripture can you read the HS as a separate individual. Jesus wills and the HS acts as Jesus has been given that authority from God. Jesus commands and the angels obey as Jesus has been given that authority from God. Scripture doesn't state Jesus always was. I believe Jesus is all that is written of Him. All that the Father is because God was pleased to have all the fullness dwell IN Him. So in that context Jesus is Gods image. But Jesus has always been the Son and in that context is not God. The Father as Jesus stated is Jesus's God. That is truth.
 

Randy

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While I do believe Jesus is the "Firstborn of all creation" from the NT I don't believe God created the Holy Spirit. I believe the Holy Spirit is the Fathers Spirit. The Spirit of the sovereign Lord.
Thats why the Spirit searches the mind of the Spirit and carries out the will of God. I don't pray to the HS as the Spirit wouldn't listen to me for He is Gods Spirit. In fact the Spirit intercedes for us according to the will of the mind of the Spirit.
 

reba

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Section 2: Specific Rules and Guidelines
2.1: This is a Christian site, therefore, any attempt to put down Christianity (or declare that it is false) and the basic tenets of our Faith will be considered a hostile act. Please read: Statement of Faith

From our Statement of Faith...

We believe that there is only one God, who is eternal and immutable, and manifests Himself in three distinct Persons; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

The moderators for this forum will decide what to do with the above posts any more will be deleted... Admin
 

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I acknowledge the Father and Son and Holy Spirit the 3 that bear witness. The Holy Spirit that Jesus poured out was received from the Father. Its the Fathers promise and His Spirit. Sent in Jesus's name. I still don't see how you believe in One God since Jesus has His own spirit and you believe Jesus always was and always was God. I don't view the HS as a separate person with His own mind and will. I view the HS as the Fathers Spirit. Since the HS speaks what He hears no where in scripture can you read the HS as a separate individual. Jesus wills and the HS acts as Jesus has been given that authority from God. Jesus commands and the angels obey as Jesus has been given that authority from God. Scripture doesn't state Jesus always was. I believe Jesus is all that is written of Him. All that the Father is because God was pleased to have all the fullness dwell IN Him. So in that context Jesus is Gods image. But Jesus has always been the Son and in that context is not God. The Father as Jesus stated is Jesus's God. That is truth.
The very term "Son of God" implies that Jesus is God, just like his Father. Jesus is just as fully God as the Father is; that is what the clear teaching of Scripture is.
 
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