Proof of Trinity

[Edward]

there's not a lot we can discuss here about it without making a lot of people mad, maybe very mad.
later, Yhwh willing, He will provide a way to pursue this good for all involved.

for instance, remember what you said about how complicated the irs code is - a few pages more than 12 ? ..... (million(s))?

well, the complicated and deceptive religious writings that started the age of accountability and other disorders cover 52 miles of shelves, tightly packed, and secret (very very very tight security and ungodly secrecy).

worldly, man's religion >
James 1:26 KJV - If any man among you seem to be - Bible Gateway
James 1:26 King James Version (KJV) 26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.

Yeah, perhaps you're right brother.

 

[follower]

just like a little child........ it's a topic/subject that hasn't come up before and i really don't know yet (we might see soon ? ) if people are really really attached to 'age of accountability' or not...... seems that some will be though, and it goes deep into their history/system/support. Yhwh willing we might get to bring everything out into the light sooner instead of later. His directions. His steps. (willingly and joyfully)

 

[Edward]

just like a little child........ it's a topic/subject that hasn't come up before and i really don't know yet (we might see soon ? ) if people are really really attached to 'age of accountability' or not...... seems that some will be though, and it goes deep into their history/system/support. Yhwh willing we might get to bring everything out into the light sooner instead of later. His directions. His steps. (willingly and joyfully)

I thought about that! When we become born again, we are justified. We then become as little children, and are again (?) under the age of accountability, then we are to learn and mature in Christ while He does His work through us!

Isn't that great?! Praise the Lord!!
Good night brother...

 

[Randy]

You keep bringing this up and I keep having to point out that it is a contradiction. A woman cannot be both pregnant and not pregnant, just as Jesus cannot be both God and not God. He is either God or he is not.


Yes, Paul meant what he stated, but what he stated is not how you are taking it to mean. You are divorcing that word from its context.

Obviously I disagree with your reasoning and you won't find in the word of God that Jesus always was. You do find He is the Son.

Is there any point in continuing this topic?

and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father--to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

I can ask if Jesus always was and always was God how then did He become the Son? We do read the Father manifests Himself through the Son as Jesus stated it is the Father in Him doing His work but Jesus is still the Son and has always been the Son -hence the Father is His GOD.

I think Paul nailed it. To us there is One God the Father..... and One Lord Jesus Christ. There is a distinction being made in the use of God and Lord.

So I think we shall just have to disagree.

R.

 

[Randy]

the age of accountability is fictitious/ made up/ a religious falacy/ (i think). (am actually very sure)

So if a baby or a 5 year born to parents of another faith die for some reason you believe a Loving God would send them to hell?

R.

 

[WIP]

From ToS
2.1: This is a Christian site, therefore, any attempt to put down Christianity (or declare that it is false) and the basic tenets of our Faith will be considered a hostile act. Please read: Statement of Faith.

From SoF
We believe that there is only one God, who is eternal and immutable, and manifests Himself in three distinct Persons; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

 

[follower]

So if a baby or a 5 year born to parents of another faith die for some reason you believe a Loving God would send them to hell?

Why do you ask what i believe ? it is written that Yhwh does as He pleases.
it is written whoever has the son has life, whoever has not the son has not life.
it is written that in the ekklesia, we(ekklesia) judge, but outside the ekklesia, Yhwh Himself judges.
somewhere it is also written that the three great men of faith: noah, daniel, and job cannot save their own children- the faith, the faith of the three great men of faith can only save themselves, not their sons - the sons must have faith themselves.
and it is written that children are sanctified by a believing(righteous) parent, like also an unbelieving spouse is sanctified by a believing (righteous) spouse.

so the answer rests with Yhwh. everyone's salvation rests with Him in Yeshua HaMashiach, just as it is written..... (always verify it is written, like the Bereans).

1 Corinthians 7:14King James Version (KJV)
14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.


Psalm 135:6 The LORD does whatever pleases him, in the ...
Whatever the LORD pleases, He does, In heaven and in earth, ...

1 John 5:12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not ...
Jesus is the Son of God … 11 And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has the life; he who ...

1 Corinthians 5:13 God will judge those outside. "Expel the ...
Expel the Immoral Brother … 12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? 13 But those who are outside, God judges.

Ezekiel 14:14 even if these three men--Noah, Daniel and Job ...
Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, said the Lord GOD....

 

[Free]

Obviously I disagree with your reasoning and you won't find in the word of God that Jesus always was. You do find He is the Son.

Is there any point in continuing this topic?

Probably not, especially since I have shown several times where Scripture states that Jesus has always existed but you don't address those passages.

I think Paul nailed it. To us there is One God the Father..... and One Lord Jesus Christ. There is a distinction being made in the use of God and Lord.

Except that once again you are just reading what you want and ignoring the rest of the verse, as I have pointed out many times:

1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. (ESV)

If "from whom are all things" speaks of the eternal preexistence of the Father, and it does since he is clearly not one of those things, then it logically follows that "through whom are all things" speaks of the eternal preexistence of the Son, who also cannot be one of those things. The progression of thought there is very simple, straightforward logic, which you have chosen to ignore.

And this goes back to the first point, Scripture does indeed show that Jesus always was.

 

[Randy]

Probably not, especially since I have shown several times where Scripture states that Jesus has always existed but you don't address those passages.


Except that once again you are just reading what you want and ignoring the rest of the verse, as I have pointed out many times:

1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. (ESV)

If "from whom are all things" speaks of the eternal preexistence of the Father, and it does since he is clearly not one of those things, then it logically follows that "through whom are all things" speaks of the eternal preexistence of the Son, who also cannot be one of those things. The progression of thought there is very simple, straightforward logic, which you have chosen to ignore.

And this goes back to the first point, Scripture does indeed show that Jesus always was.

I am no longer discussing this topic.

Randy

 

[Randy]

Why do you ask what i believe ? it is written that Yhwh does as He pleases.
it is written whoever has the son has life, whoever has not the son has not life.
it is written that in the ekklesia, we(ekklesia) judge, but outside the ekklesia, Yhwh Himself judges.
somewhere it is also written that the three great men of faith: noah, daniel, and job cannot save their own children- the faith, the faith of the three great men of faith can only save themselves, not their sons - the sons must have faith themselves.
and it is written that children are sanctified by a believing(righteous) parent, like also an unbelieving spouse is sanctified by a believing (righteous) spouse.

so the answer rests with Yhwh. everyone's salvation rests with Him in Yeshua HaMashiach, just as it is written..... (always verify it is written, like the Bereans).

1 Corinthians 7:14King James Version (KJV)
14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.


Psalm 135:6 The LORD does whatever pleases him, in the ...
Whatever the LORD pleases, He does, In heaven and in earth, ...

1 John 5:12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not ...
Jesus is the Son of God … 11 And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has the life; he who ...

1 Corinthians 5:13 God will judge those outside. "Expel the ...
Expel the Immoral Brother … 12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? 13 But those who are outside, God judges.

Ezekiel 14:14 even if these three men--Noah, Daniel and Job ...
Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, said the Lord GOD....

God does what He pleases - Duh

God will judge by His righteousness and He won't be sending babies or 5 year olds to hell. Even mankind who knows evil makes a distinction between adults and juveniles in judicial matters. How much more then will our Heavenly Father who knows no evil do so.

R.

 

[childeye]

The very term "Son of God" implies that Jesus is God, just like his Father. Jesus is just as fully God as the Father is; that is what the clear teaching of Scripture is.

I agree with this. However I would point out that the terms Father and Son, are two different perspectives from the same Spirit. One is heavenly looking down upon man, and one is the son of man, Jesus, looking up at God. That is how I believe the trinity is meant to be taken when pondered. The Holy Spirit testifies to both, and therefore constitutes the Truth gleaned from the collected wisdom of having experienced both perspectives. That to me is the Trinity.

 

[Free]

I agree with this. However I would point out that the terms Father and Son, are two different perspectives from the same Spirit. One is heavenly looking down upon man, and one is the son of man, Jesus, looking up at God. That is how I believe the trinity is meant to be taken when pondered. The Holy Spirit testifies to both, and therefore constitutes the Truth gleaned from the collected wisdom of having experienced both perspectives. That to me is the Trinity.

To say that "the terms Father and Son, are two different perspectives from the same Spirit," sounds more like modalism than the Trinity.

 

[childeye]

To say that "the terms Father and Son, are two different perspectives from the same Spirit," sounds more like modalism than the Trinity.

mod·al·ism
ˈmodlˌizəm/
noun
noun: modalism

1. 1.
   Theology
   the doctrine that the persons of the Trinity represent only three modes or aspects of the divine revelation, not distinct and coexisting persons in the divine nature.

I Had to look up modalism to answer this. I think I agree with modalism to some degree according to how I understand the description I read. I would agree that there are indeed two perspectives in the Father and Son and an overall view in the Holy Spirit, otherwise there cannot be two views from two opposite ends wherein Satan, who creates enmity between the two, is now trapped in the middle and being consumed in the fire of Truth. Moreover, unless there are two perspectives both serving the same Spirit, there cannot be intercession being made at the right hand of God. This is all self evident to me. I am not sure what is meant by "aspects of the divine revelation". To me, God is the Eternal Spirit wherein the Trinity resides, not an aspect of divine revelation.

However, I would not say that there are not distinct and coexisting persons in the divine nature, unless that is supposed to mean that there is only one God or source of the Divine nature. So the Son most definitely proceeded from the Father as common sense declares, yet they are of the same Eternal Spiritual substance. Otherwise, there cannot be children born of the Spirit of God out of the souls of men, whom Jesus was the first. That is not to say he did not exist prior to being a man, in some other form.

Now I have expressed the Trinity and how it relates directly to the scriptural descriptions, such as intercession and being born again. After having to look up the term modalism, I am comforted to know that I am not alone in this revelation of what the Trinity means. But I am now curious as to what you think the Trinity means, if indeed you don't believe in these three perspectives.

 

[Free]

mod·al·ism
ˈmodlˌizəm/
noun
noun: modalism

1. 1.
   Theology
   the doctrine that the persons of the Trinity represent only three modes or aspects of the divine revelation, not distinct and coexisting persons in the divine nature.

I Had to look up modalism to answer this. I think I agree with modalism to some degree according to how I understand the description I read. I would agree that there are indeed two perspectives in the Father and Son and an overall view in the Holy Spirit, otherwise there cannot be two views from two opposite ends wherein Satan, who creates enmity between the two, is now trapped in the middle and being consumed in the fire of Truth. Moreover, unless there are two perspectives both serving the same Spirit, there cannot be intercession being made at the right hand of God. This is all self evident to me. I am not sure what is meant by "aspects of the divine revelation". To me, God is the Eternal Spirit wherein the Trinity resides, not an aspect of divine revelation.

However, I would not say that there are not distinct and coexisting persons in the divine nature, unless that is supposed to mean that there is only one God or source of the Divine nature. So the Son most definitely proceeded from the Father as common sense declares, yet they are of the same Eternal Spiritual substance. Otherwise, there cannot be children born of the Spirit of God out of the souls of men, whom Jesus was the first. That is not to say he did not exist prior to being a man, in some other form.

Now I have expressed the Trinity and how it relates directly to the scriptural descriptions, such as intercession and being born again. After having to look up the term modalism, I am comforted to know that I am not alone in this revelation of what the Trinity means. But I am now curious as to what you think the Trinity means, if indeed you don't believe in these three perspectives.

Firstly, modalism is not a revelation of what the Trinity means. It is an unbiblical understanding of God that is opposed to the Trinity. Modalism and Trinitarianism cannot both be true. Secondly, sorry but I don't understand anything else in your post; I don't know what you're trying to say.

 

[childeye]

Firstly, modalism is not a revelation of what the Trinity means. It is an unbiblical understanding of God that is opposed to the Trinity. Modalism and Trinitarianism cannot both be true. Secondly, sorry but I don't understand anything else in your post; I don't know what you're trying to say.

I don't see how it is not biblical. The references to Father and Son as separate perspectives are a constant throughout New Testament scripture. I gave a few examples, but there are many more. For instance,
Jhn
5:22

For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
Jhn 5:19

Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Jhn 8:44

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

I put forth John 8:44 as an indicator as to how having the devil as a Father is related to having God as one's Father.

Isa 59:15

Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment.
Isa 59:16

And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.



The above scripture indicates that mankind needed an intercessor. There therefore has to be a different perspective from man's point of view for intercession to occur. And as we know, Jesus is our intercessor, our advocate sent by God.

 

[Free]

I don't see how it is not biblical. The references to Father and Son as separate perspectives are a constant throughout New Testament scripture. I gave a few examples, but there are many more. For instance,
Jhn
5:22

For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
Jhn 5:19

Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Jhn 8:44

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Then you seem to have misunderstood what Modalism teaches, or the Trinity, or both. Modalism is the belief that God is one person that manifests in three different ways--the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all one and the same person. But this doesn't make sense since Scripture clearly keeps each person distinct from the other. Trinitarianism, on the other hand, does state that the one God is three distinct persons.

 

[childeye]

Then you seem to have misunderstood what Modalism teaches, or the Trinity, or both. Modalism is the belief that God is one person that manifests in three different ways--the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all one and the same person. But this doesn't make sense since Scripture clearly keeps each person distinct from the other. Trinitarianism, on the other hand, does state that the one God is three distinct persons.

They sound the same to me. God is Spirit, hence He manifests Himself in all of creation since all was created through His Word. God spoke and His Word is the energy that created everything. This does not mean that Jesus is not a distinct person from the Father even though he is the Word of God made flesh. Indeed he has to be to intercede for mankind before the throne of God. Therefore to say Jesus, the Word made flesh, is a distinct person that has experienced being flesh and shared in the plight of man, is no different than saying Jesus offers a man's perspective when interceding on behalf of mankind.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I read the Bible first, prior to reading any Christian literature. Starting at the beginning. Old Testament first. The first sentence presumes the existence of God. One knows right off the frame of reference. The Old Testament clearly presents a God of one person. Yet Christians interpret the New Testament as if it refers to a Trinity of persons in one God. Either the Old and New Testaments contradict one another - or - the idea of a God of three persons is an interpretation, and the New Testament references used to prove a Trinity can be understood in a way that they don't contradict what the Old Testament clearly says.

The Trinity is the primary essential doctrine of Christianity. The choice is simple. Believe it and be a Christian or don't believe it and be a non-Christian. Doesn't really matter whether or not I believe in the God (Old Testament) or the Son of God and his purpose on the earth (New Testament) of the Bible. I can't be a Christian because I think the idea of a God composed of three persons is just a theory, not a fact. Christians, like Evolutionists, think their theory is a fact.

I don't think Christians believe in the Bible. Not really. They believe in interpretations of the Bible. Christian denominations are based on different interpretations. Even their music is based on different interpretations for the most part. Sometimes interpretations of the Bible. Sometimes interpretations of interpretations of the Bible. The Trinity is one of their interpretations. An essential interpretation. Christians are strangely unified regarding the basics of the Trinity interpretation.

Christian denominations are like an exclusive club. One either goes along with the program and believes the interpretations (by-laws) or not be a member. The Bible is just a figurehead. The interpretations and their interpreters have the real authority. I've never been one to belong to exclusive clubs for long. They tend to think way too much of themselves. And that can feed the need for interpretations that solve all problems. Except the problem of exclusivity. That's solved by an action, closed communion or banning. An action based on interpretation. The necessity for such an action is another area that Christians are strangely unified about.

This post is not a rant. I hope it is received in the spirit given. It would be nice to read a profoundly useful response to the concerns presented above. For or against.

Hi Jesse, let's start at the beginning here.
You say the Old Testament clearly presents a God of one person.

Please explain two verses for me.
Genesis 1:26; "Let us make man in our image", and
Proverbs 30:4; "What is his name, and the name of his son"?

 

[th1b.taylor]

Hi Jesse, let's start at the beginning here.
You say the Old Testament clearly presents a God of one person.

Please explain two verses for me.
Genesis 1:26; "Let us make man in our image", and
Proverbs 30:4; "What is his name, and the name of his son"?

Jesse,
I pray you are ready for one, possibly, very, interesting exchange but if this conversation closes this string, don't be surprised. If you read the TOS before subscribing you already know this is on thin ice as soon as the horse left the chute. This is a One Triune God Christian Web Site and teaching Oneness, Modalism or any othjer form of teaching that denies the truth of the, very, scriptural Triune Godhead will get you into the Stocks for a bit with the Mods and the Admin. Go easy and keep it conversational, it's the only possible way that the Mods might allow this exchange.

 

[Chopper]

just like a little child........ it's a topic/subject that hasn't come up before and i really don't know yet (we might see soon ? ) if people are really really attached to 'age of accountability' or not...... seems that some will be though, and it goes deep into their history/system/support. Yhwh willing we might get to bring everything out into the light sooner instead of later. His directions. His steps. (willingly and joyfully)

Hi there follower. I have addressed the topic of a child's death prior to the age of accountability and Scripture to support my views. I honestly can't remember which threads (there were several) that I posted them but here it is in simple form.

Romans 5:12-21 speak of the origin of sin and some good theology about children.

Rom 5:12 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 5:13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come." (KJV)

Rom 5:12 "Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— 5:13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 5:14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come." (ESV)

So by V.12 we see that all humans who are born, are born inheriting Adams sin.
V.13 tells us that for 1,500 years, people were sinning (from Adam to the 10 Commandments given to Moses) but for those 1500 years, their sins were not being recorded in the heavenly record books. The word "imputed" means "recorded".

The age of accountability, as some of our members did some research, is either 12, or 19 depending on which Hebrew custom you are believing....If a child dies before that age, since the Scripture says that where there is no Law, sin is not being recorded against that child because he/she doesn't understand the law of Moses.

I'd be happy to answer any questions that you might have.