Refuting Preterism

[JLB]

Hi,

Rev ch 16 could not have occured yet because just look at the text-

Rev 16:1


And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
Rev 16:2

And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
Rev 16:3

And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
Rev 16:4

And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
Rev 16:5

And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
Rev 16:6

For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
Rev 16:7

And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
Rev 16:8

And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
Rev 16:9

And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
Rev 16:10

And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
Rev 16:11

And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
Rev 16:12

And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
Rev 16:13

And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Rev 16:14

For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Rev 16:15

Behold, I come as a thief. Blessedishe that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16

And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
Rev 16:17

And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Rev 16:18

And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
Rev 16:19

And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
Rev 16:20

And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
Rev 16:21

And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.
Jock.

As long as there is:

• Judaism
• Flesh on your bones
• The sun is in the sky

Jesus has not returned.


It's just that simple.


All the "Bible history" and lexicon gymnastics won't change the pure holy Truth!




JLB

 

[Jock]

1. There are serious deficiencies in Preterist teachings, any one of which causes the doctrine to collapse. Allow us to share one, as follows:​

2. Revelation 16:12-16 describes how the Battle of Armageddon will commence (or how it did commence - allegedly). So, here is our first question: Who conquered Jerusalem in fulfillment of this prophecy and from where did they come?​

3. The Preterist position teaches that this prophecy was fulfilled in the year 70 A.D. when the Roman General Titus and his Roman army conquered Jerusalem.​

4. But Rome is virtually due WEST of Jerusalem and the prophecy (Rev 16:12) says that the Euphrates was dried up so that the kings of the EAST could be prepared to make war against Jerusalem at Armageddon.​

5. The core teachings of Preterism collapse completely on this passage alone, and make further questions on the matter superfluous.​

[Credit and thanks to Irvin Baxter for presenting this line of reasoning.]​

Ive presented this question awhile back,maybe I can get an answer this time.........​

It is really interesting because the Armageddon event is at the end of the events of Rev.ch 16, describing the vials of wrath.

but the armies of the beast are said to be enacting Gods will of destroying harlotry (Isaiah ch 10, Rev.17:16-17 , ) as is described in the 6th trumpet of Rev.ch 9 which occurs just previous to the second coming of Christ to raise the saints in the 7th trumpet.

This 6th trumpet is also described in Joel ch 2 as heralding the coming of Christ to deliver His people in the day of the Lord, and this army is--


Joe 2:20



But I will remove far off from you the northern army, and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things.

Though God calls this army "His army".(Joel 2:11) but not so of the armies of man at Armadeddon.

The first army of trumpets, is not the army of the armageddon event of the 6th and 7th vial.

People often just overlay trumpets on the vials but trumpets occur before the resurrection and the vials only begin after the resurrection.

This is in accord with 2 Thes ch 1.

Jock

 

[Tri Unity]

All the "Bible history" and lexicon gymnastics won't change the pure holy Truth!

Too true. The Preterist view is akin to Mormonism or Brittish Israelite doctrines. They were all developed near the 17th century; which says a lot. Like most modern sects and cults; they have introduced new doctrines that were totally foreign to Christians in all ages until 1600 years after Jerusalem was destroyed. Why would God only reveal this part of the picture to those of a minority sect 1600 years after the events? It doesn't make the slightest sense. A great can of worms was opened in the 16th and 17th centuries, and a lot of crazy ideas flooded the historical landscape. Preterism was one of them.

Preterists developed out of a false vision to unite Protestants and Catholics by claiming that the Antichrist had already come 30 years after the death of Christ. This view was intended to take the sting out of the Protestant claim that the Catholic Church was the Antichrist. It was developed by Catholic sympathisers and backed by Jesuits. Many people were duped into believing it just as people are duped in to any other wind of doctrine, whether it is Pharisaism; Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons.

 

[reba]

I see a few newer faces here Welcome ....

I will say again there are differences in what is labled preterism here is the main one.
Orthodox preterism awaits his return,
Full preterism does not.

 

[reba]

A large part of the Roman army was camped to the north of Jerusalem....

 

[Tri Unity]

I think some who believe in Preterism confuse it with Historicism. What makes the subject confusing is that parts of each belief have truth in them.

Some views of Preterism believe in a futurist return of Christ; although this is more akin to futurism. Some futurists believe that Dan 9 was fulfilled at 70 AD, as I do. Some futurists believe in aspects of historicism, in which I also am one. The current selection of theories of the end-times are all lacking in one way or another. Preterists try to argue against futurism; yet they can only argue against the popular views of futurism; which are flawed anyway.

Christians need to look deeper into the subject personally. They need to realize that none of the proposed models may be right. We cannot select a belief system as though we are choosing a desert from a smorgasbord: Futurist; Historicist or Preterist. It is not that simple. The "truth" is not a prefered diet that we select; and it is not a fashion accessory. We need to dig deeper. Christians have always believed in futurism from the 2nd century till now. The past few centuries have brought with it a legion of teachings on futurism, historicism and preterism. Preterism came about in the 16-17th century. It is the least likely view to be correct. The futurism waters are now very muddy due to some crazy interpretations becoming popular. What one cannot deny is that futurism has always been taught by the earliest christians. It is the first and oldest understanding of the end-times.

 

[Tri Unity]

According to the doctrines developed by the councils of Nicaea and Constantinople, "full preterism" is heretical.

Council of Nicaea:

"From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead."

Council of Constantinople:

"from thence he shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end."

If you deny these doctrines, like Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons, you are heretical and a cult if you deny that Jesus is still to come. These are the doctrines set forth from the earliest times that distinguish heretics from Christians. Full Preterism is heresy from these definitions.

 

[Stormcrow]

"But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes. Matthew 10:23 (NASB)

"Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." Matthew 16:28 (NASB)

"Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. "Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! Matthew 23:34-38 (NASB)

"But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. Matthew 24:29-30 (NASB)

so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. Matthew 24:33-34 (NASB)

"But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man." Luke 21:36 (NASB)

It doesn't matter what some people think 2nd century Christians believed. What matters is what Jesus told the disciples and what His apostles recorded. Everything they wrote pointed directly to His return while some of them still lived; before that generation had passed.

It is incumbent upon us to understand what His words mean in that context, not twist them into something they were never intended to mean or ignore them.

 

[Tri Unity]

The entire history of the church has refuted the preterist manipulation of scriptures. The councils rightly proclaimed preterism as heresy. If you are a full preterist, and you deny the future coming of Jesus; then you cannot claim to be fully christian. You do not interprete the scriptures correctly. This is the view of orthodoxy. It does not matter what scriptures you quote... the church has already ruled that preterism is heresy.

 

[Stormcrow]

If you are a full preterist, and you deny the future coming of Jesus; then you cannot claim to be fully christian.

What an absurd, asinine, and utterly ridiculous assertion to make. Last time I checked, belief in Jesus sacrificial death was required for salvation, not subscription to an ignorant church doctrine (futurism) that flies in the face of Jesus' own prophetic words.

What an utterly ignorant statement, right up there with "you can't be saved if you don't speak in tongues."

Absurd and outrageous.

 

[Tri Unity]

Preterism and Arianism are considered the same. They were both condemned at Nicaea and Contantinople. That has been the belief of all orthodox churches since the First Ecumenical Council. If Preterists are orthodox then so are Jehovah's Witnesses and Christadelphians. Most churches have a Statement of Faith that identifies with the Nicene Creed. Don't claim that it is absurd; it is fact. Your beliefs are outside of the orthodox church; just like Mormons and JW's. Come to terms with it.

 

[Stormcrow]

Most churches have a Statement of Faith that identifies with the Nicene Creed.

Creeds don't supersede the word of Christ.

Don't claim that it is absurd; it is fact. Your beliefs are outside of the orthodox church; just like Mormons and JW's. Come to terms with it.

They're not "my claims!" What part of these passages are not perfectly clear to anyone with at least a third grade reading level?!?

"But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes. Matthew 10:23 (NASB)

"Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." Matthew 16:28 (NASB)

"Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. "Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! Matthew 23:34-38 (NASB)

"But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. Matthew 24:29-30 (NASB)

so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. Matthew 24:33-34 (NASB)

"But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man." Luke 21:36 (NASB)

You can try to defame and smear those with whom you disagree by suggesting they are not "fully Christian", but that is not only absurd, it's offensive!

Preterism isn't the issue: the issue is the plainly spoken word of Christ!

Why don't you address what He said instead of calling others "heretics" and "unchristian" for merely believing what He said?!?

 

[Jock]

"But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes. Matthew 10:23 (NASB)

Christians are still going through the cities of Israel witnessing to them for Israel is still dwelling throughout the world since the first dispersion of them, with quite a few following dispersions, even of the righteous of the early church.

"Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who
will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His
kingdom." Matthew 16:28 (NASB)

The son of man did not come in his Kingdom in 70 ad but it best be understood that the son of man came in His Kingdom when He filled the 120 with his Spirit on the day of Pentecost or if that is not quite correct then some could have been standing there who will not taste death until Christ returns, but even that is a stretch, but there is just no way that Jesus in saying some stand there will not taste death, was until 70 Ad, holds any significance at all.

"Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and
scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will
scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, so that upon you
may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the
blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom
you murdered between the temple and the altar. "Truly I say to you, all these
things will come upon this generation.

The immediate generation of Jesus speaking would not be held accountable for all sins of past generations, unless they all do the same, and multitudes of his generation had repented and followed Him.

We have also the verse which covers much more than Jesus own generation of 40 years or so or even 70 years.

Rev 18:24



And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to
her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers
her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. "Behold, your house
is being left to you desolate!Matthew 23:34-38 (NASB)

The similar end of the churches is also shown to occur because of Rev.ch 3 and the first 5 of the trumpets, which is what Jesus is conveying in many things He has said, as Paul did in 2 Thes.ch 2.

"But immediately after the
tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL
NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of
the heavens will be shaken. "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in
the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the
SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. Matthew 24:29-30 (NASB)

All of the tribes of the earth did not see Christ return in power and Glory in 70 AD and neither did all tribes mourn.

so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near,
right at the door. "Truly I say to you, this generation will
not pass away until all these things take place. Matthew 24:33-34 (NASB

)

Jesus was giving some help to us who live now and did not give a time between His first coming and His second coming in many prophecies of the OT either, but in any case a wicked generation is not confined to the years between His speaking and ad 70.

"But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength
to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand
before the Son of Man." Luke 21:36 (NASB)

A timeless instruction to all of any time.

It doesn't matter what some people think 2nd century Christians believed. What
matters is what Jesus told the disciples and what His apostles recorded.
Everything they wrote pointed directly to His return while some of them still
lived; before that generation had passed.

His words were recorded for our benefit now, and if they were all referring to past history then it is not important to even read them now.

It is incumbent upon us to understand what His words mean in that context, not twist them into something they were never intended to mean or ignore them.

We must be guided by many words which Jesus spoke and we live by every word which proceeds out of the mouth of God now, and He still speaks them to us now for our benefit now.

Jock.

 

[Stormcrow]

Christians are still going through the cities of Israel

But He wasn't addressing us. He was addressing the disciples standing right there in front of Him. You know, the guys that went on to become the apostles and lived 2,000 years ago? Read the full context of that passage. Matthew 10:5-23

The son of man did not come in his Kingdom in 70 ad but it best be understood that the son of man came in His Kingdom when He filled the 120 with his Spirit on the day of Pentecost or if that is not quite correct then some could have been standing there who will not taste death until Christ returns, but even that is a stretch, but there is just no way that Jesus in saying some stand there will not taste death, was until 70 Ad, holds any significance at all.

In other words, you have no idea what the phrase "coming in His kingdom" means.

The immediate generation of Jesus speaking would not be held accountable for all sins of past generations

And yet this is precisely what He told them would happen. I think I'll take His word for it over yours, mmmmkay? Thanks.

We have also the verse which covers much more than Jesus own generation of 40 years or so or even 70 years.

Rev 18:24
And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Which city killed prophets and saints: a city Jesus specifically prophesied against for these very crimes???

"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. "Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! Matthew 23:37-38 (NASB)

Hmmm...Seems to be the same thing Jerusalem was judged for here: 2 Chronicles 36:15-21.

Might also pay to read Matthew 21:33-46, which is based on Isaiah 5:1-7.

All of the tribes of the earth did not see Christ return in power and Glory in 70 AD and neither did all tribes mourn.

And you know this because you were there? Do you even know what prophecy you've alluded to and why "earth" has an alternate meaning that is borne out in literal translations??? Yes? No? Because if you don't know that what you've alluded to is a prophecy in Zechariah 12, then there's no way you can possibly understand what Christ was talking about.

I bet you think when Christ spoke of the "abomination of desolation" your mind races right to images of a Satanic boogeyman standing in a rebuilt temple, too, huh??? 2

Jesus was giving some help to us who live now and did not give a time between His first coming and His second coming

Jesus was quite clear on the timing of His return: before the generation of those to whom He was speaking would pass. That's the easy part.

The trick is understanding what His return meant.

A timeless instruction to all of any time.

Given specifically to His disciples living 2,000 years ago.

His words were recorded for our benefit now, and if they were all referring to past history then it is not important to even read them now.

I'm sorry to see you think so little of His word. It is more than eschatology, don't you think?

We must be guided by many words which Jesus spoke and we live by every word which proceeds out of the mouth of God now...

I never wrote that we shouldn't. Get back to me when you have a fuller grasp of the facts and issues involved in this discussion.

 

[Tri Unity]

Why don't you address what He said instead of calling others "heretics" and "unchristian" for merely believing what He said?!?

The Preterism question has already been settled by the early church councils; and they declared Preterism as heresy. There is no reason to engage heresy. The scriptures you quote do not prove Preterism; you simply manipulate the scriptures to fit into this declared heresy.

If Preterim is not a heresy; then we might as well throw out the trinity as well, and also throw out the canon of the bible; because these same church councils that declared preterism heresy also determined the bible canon and the doctrine of the trinity. Preterists are no different to Mormons or JW's. That opinion was declared by the councils of the church. If you do not accept any church council or church father; then that is just further evidence that you teach a different gospel and you are alien to the church. JW's use this same reasoning to justify that Jesus is Michael, and that there was no cross. They completely disregard the history and teachings of the church and teach a false gospel. Preterism is a false gospel. The church has rightly declared that it is heresy.

 

[Jock]

But He wasn't addressing us. He was addressing the disciples standing right there in front of Him. You know, the guys that went on to become the apostles and lived 2,000 years ago? Read the full context of that passage. Matthew 10:5-23

So the message of salvation does not apply to you, or any ramifications of preaching it either.

In other words, you have no idea what the phrase "coming in His kingdom" means.

Well actually I do, for Christ has not yet returned to earth from Heaven to rule the world with the resurreced saints so that his spirit will cover the earth as the waters cover the sea.

And yet this is precisely what He told them would happen. I think I'll take His word for it over yours, mmmmkay? Thanks.

I never expected you would.

Which city killed prophets and saints: a city Jesus specifically prophesied against for these very crimes???

"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. "Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! Matthew 23:37-38 (NASB)

Hmmm...Seems to be the same thing Jerusalem was judged for here: 2 Chronicles 36:15-21.

Might also pay to read Matthew 21:33-46, which is based on Isaiah 5:1-7.

The many things God spoke against Jerusalem in the past also apply against many of the churches from time to time, and the end of the churches of the endtimes apostacy are very much the same.

And you know this because you were there? Do you even know what prophecy you've alluded to and why "earth" has an alternate meaning that is borne out in literal translations??? Yes? No? Because if you don't know that what you've alluded to is a prophecy in Zechariah 12, then there's no way you can possibly understand what Christ was talking about.

That is only your opinion.

I bet you think when Christ spoke of the "abomination of desolation" your mind races right to images of a Satanic boogeyman standing in a rebuilt temple, too, huh??? 2

More of your own opinion without scriptural backing.

Jesus was quite clear on the timing of His return: before the generation of those to whom He was speaking would pass. That's the easy part.

Christ returns to gather all of His people from the four corners of Heaven and He has not done so yet.--

Deu 30:1






And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,
Deu 30:2



And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
Deu 30:3



That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
Deu 30:4



If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
Deu 30:5



And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.

The trick is understanding what His return meant.

Your view say Christ returned in 70 Ad and destroyed Jerusalem, but where did He go, because none saw Him then on earth and none since then.

Given specifically to His disciples living 2,000 years ago.

So none of His words apply to you.

I'm sorry to see you think so little of His word. It is more than eschatology, don't you think?

Your desire to make a false accusation is duly noted..

I never wrote that we shouldn't. Get back to me when you have a fuller grasp of the facts and issues involved in this discussion.

Then why did you give so much opinion without substantiation?

Jock

 

[Stormcrow]

Preterism is a false gospel. The church has rightly declared that it is heresy.

Do you believe Jesus fulfilled any prophecy at all?

If so, you are a preterist! So the only question is how much prophecy you are willing to concede He fulfilled.

But since your blanket assertion that "preterism is a false gospel and heresy" covers all preterism, then what you allege of others is true of you, too!

Welcome to the club, heretic!

 

[Tri Unity]

Do you believe Jesus fulfilled any prophecy at all?

If so, you are a preterist! So the only question is how much prophecy you are willing to concede He fulfilled.

But since your blanket assertion that "preterism is a false gospel and heresy" covers all preterism, then what you allege of others is true of you, too!

Welcome to the club, heretic!

That is the weird reasoning that got you into believing falsehood in the first place. The question is whether Jesus is still coming, or has He already come. The church councils declared that Jesus is still coming, and to believe otherwise is heresy. Twisting things again!

 

[Stormcrow]

So the message of salvation does not apply to you, or any ramifications of preaching it either.

Nonsense.

Well actually I do, for Christ has not yet returned to earth from Heaven to rule the world with the resurreced saints so that his spirit will cover the earth as the waters cover the sea.

Ain't literalism grand?

The many things God spoke against Jerusalem in the past also apply against many of the churches from time to time, and the end of the churches of the endtimes apostacy are very much the same.

Really? Name one church that is specifically named and judged in either testament for killing the messengers of God. Just one. I'll wait (but I won't hold my breath.)

And you know this because you were there? Do you even know what prophecy you've alluded to and why "earth" has an alternate meaning that is borne out in literal translations??? Yes? No? Because if you don't know that what you've alluded to is a prophecy in Zechariah 12, then there's no way you can possibly understand what Christ was talking about.

That is only your opinion.

And, apparently, a far more reasonable and educated one than yours.

I bet you think when Christ spoke of the "abomination of desolation" your mind races right to images of a Satanic boogeyman standing in a rebuilt temple, too, huh??? 2

More of your own opinion without scriptural backing.

Not sure what I'm supposed to back with scripture here, since I opined that you probably believe other nonsense from the dispy/futurist playbook, too. Are you saying you don't? :o

Christ returns to gather all of His people from the four corners of Heaven and He has not done so yet.--
Deu 30:1

So a prophecy of Moses to the children of Israel regarding their keeping of the Law Moses gave them from God is something that applies to Christians, too??? :toofunny

Your view say Christ returned in 70 Ad and destroyed Jerusalem, but where did He go, because none saw Him then on earth and none since then.

Ain't literalism grand??? :toofunny

So none of His words apply to you.

Not one. Except for that whole "salvation thing" people keep going on and on about. But yeah, it's not like that's very important at all, though.

Again, get back to me when you have a better handle on this stuff.

 

[Stormcrow]

The question is whether Jesus is still coming, or has He already come.

He already came: His "coming" was in like manner as the Father "came" in judgment upon nations in the Old Testament.

The church councils declared that Jesus is still coming, and to believe otherwise is heresy. Twisting things again!

Full Preterists typically reject the authority of the Creeds to condemn their view, stating that the Creeds were written by uninspired and fallible men, and that appeals should be made instead to the Scriptures themselves (sola scriptura).

You rely on the doctrines of men. I rely on the words of Christ. Who is the greater heretic? Who is twisting things more than you are???