Refuting Preterism

[Stormcrow]

The problem for futurists and dispys is that their views cannot accomodate the words of Christ and the apostles when it comes to verses like these...

"But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes. Matthew 10:23 (NASB)

"Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." Matthew 16:28 (NASB)

"Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. "Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! Matthew 23:34-38 (NASB)

"But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. Matthew 24:29-30 (NASB)

so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. Matthew 24:33-34 (NASB)

"But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man." Luke 21:36 (NASB)

Preterism isn't heresy and it isn't new. It is the only view that doesn't have to discard half the New Testament and most of the Old to support it.

 

[Tri Unity]

The problem for futurists and dispys is that their views cannot accomodate the words of Christ and the apostles when it comes to verses like these...

That is your opinion only.

 

[JLB]

The problem for futurists and dispys is that their views cannot accomodate the words of Christ and the apostles when it comes to verses like these...

"But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes. Matthew 10:23 (NASB)

"Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." Matthew 16:28 (NASB)

These verse's were fulfilled when Jesus Christ came up out of the heart of the earth with all the OT saints and showed Himself to the disciples.

52 And the graves were opened ; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose , 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. Matthew 27:52-53

"Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. "Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! Matthew 23:34-38 (NASB)

These scriptures were fulfilled as Jesus prophesied they would -

20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh . 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out ; and let not them that are in the countries enter there into . 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled . 23 But woe unto them that are with child , and to them that give suck , in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled .


... for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

This prophesy was partly fulfilled in 70 AD, as to the rest -

• ...shall be led away captive into all nations:

This part of the scripture continued until May, 1948.

• until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled .

The times of the Gentiles continues until Daniel's 70th week starts.

"But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. Matthew 24:29-30 (NASB)

so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. Matthew 24:33-34 (NASB)

These verse's have yet to be fulfilled since the sun, moon and stars are still in the sky!


To say the Lord Jesus has already returned and is not coming after the tribulation is over is pure false doctrine!

It sow discouragement among believers! It sows doubt about God's Word!

It is simply put False Doctrine!

A tree is known by it's fruit!

JLB

 

[Stormcrow]

That is your opinion only.

Having been both a futurist and dispy at one time, it's a well-informed opinion. But it's just another dodge to say it's my opinion only and not deal with the words of Christ. 2

 

[Tri Unity]

Having been both a futurist and dispy at one time, it's a well-informed opinion. But it's just another dodge to say it's my opinion only and not deal with the words of Christ.

The words of Christ you quote have been misapplied to read whatever you want them to read. This is a common error. Your view has been denied credibility for 2000 years. It was only 500 years ago that a Jesuit gave you your doctrine. Up until that time it was (and still is) considered heresy. Yours is the same argument used by Jehovah's Witnesses. They also say that the church was false up until their own view was discovered 1800 years later. You must also say that the entire church was in darkness until the Jesuit anounced this doctrine in 1614.

 

[Stormcrow]

A: Your view has been denied credibility for 2000 years.

B: It was only 500 years ago that a Jesuit gave you your doctrine.

A and B cannot both be true. I would've thought a smart guy would know that.

 

[Stormcrow]

"But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes. Matthew 10:23 (NASB)

"Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." Matthew 16:28 (NASB)

"Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. Matthew 23:34-36 (NASB)

“Immediately afterthe tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:29-30 (ESV)

Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. Matthew 24:34 (ESV)

Therefore you [the disciples He was addressing on the Mount of Olives!] also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect. Matthew 24:44 (ESV)

Jesus said to *Caiaphas, “You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.” Matthew 26:64 (ESV)

"But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man." Luke 21:36 (NASB)

"These things I have spoken to you so that you may be kept from stumbling. "They will make you outcasts from the synagogue, but an hour is coming for everyone who kills you to think that he is offering service to God. "These things they will do because they have not known the Father or Me. "But these things I have spoken to you, so that when their hour comes, you may remember that I told you of them. These things I did not say to you at the beginning, because I was with you. John 16:1-4 (NASB)

the times, indeed, therefore, of the ignorance God having overlooked, doth now command all men everywhere to reform, because He did set a day in which He is about to judge the world in righteousness, by a man whom He did ordain, having given assurance to all, having raised him out of the dead.' Acts 17:30-31 (YLT)

having hope toward God, which they themselves also wait for, that there is about to be a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous; Acts 24:15 (YLT)

so that you [Corinthians!] are not lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 1:7-8 (NASB)

But this I say, brethren, the time has been shortened, so that from now on those who have wives should be as though they had none; and those who weep, as though they did not weep; and those who rejoice, as though they did not rejoice; and those who buy, as though they did not possess; and those who use the world, as though they did not make full use of it; for the form of this world is passing away. 1 Corinthians 7:29-31 (NASB)

Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, rejoice! Let your gentle spirit be known to all men. The Lord is near. Philippians 4:4-5 (NASB)

For they themselves report about us what kind of a reception we had with you, and how you [Thessalonians] turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God, and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come. 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10 (NASB)

For who is our hope or joy or crown of exultation? Is it not even you [Thessalonians], in the presence of our Lord Jesus at His coming? For you are our glory and joy. 1 Thessalonians 2:19-20 (NASB)

I do fully testify, then, before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who is about to judge living and dead at his manifestation and his reign-- 2 Timothy 4:1 (YLT)

When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. Hebrews 8:13 (NASB)

so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him. Hebrews 9:28 (NASB)

Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. The farmer waits for the precious produce of the soil, being patient about it, until it gets the early and late rains. You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near. James 5:7-8 (NASB)

Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. 1 Peter 1:13 (NASB)

The end of all things is near; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer. 1 Peter 4:7 (NASB)

For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 1 Peter 4:17 (ESV)

Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. 1 John 2:18 (NASB)

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, Revelation 1:1 (NASB)

Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near. Revelation 1:3 (NASB)

~'Therefore repent; or else I am coming to you quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of My mouth. Revelation 2:16 (NASB)

~'Nevertheless what you [Thyatira] have, hold fast until I come. Revelation 2:25 (NASB)

~'Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. ~'I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one will take your crown. Revelation 3:10-11 (NASB)

And he said to me, "These words are faithful and true"; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place. "And behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is he who heeds the words of the prophecy of this book." Revelation 22:6-7 (NASB)

And he *said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. Revelation 22:10 (NASB)

"Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. Revelation 22:12 (NASB)

He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming quickly." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus. Revelation 22:20 (NASB)

They also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven." Acts 1:11 (NASB)

Jesus said He would return while some of them still lived and they passed on that belief in the letters they wrote. Their belief in His imminent return was pervasive and overwhelming. If Jesus Christ did not come as He promised them, then He lied to them and they - in turn - have lied to us.

If Futurism is true, Jesus Christ and His apostles lied.

If you are right, then Jesus Christ is not who He claimed to be.

I don't care what the church creeds say. I don't care what the church believes. Creeds are merely statements of faith - what someone believes - not what is necessarily true. Here you have the words of Christ and the apostles themselves and yet the church - blinded by doctrine - ignores them and teaches falsehoods, giving people false hope, instead of teaching the words of Christ and what living in His kingdom right this moment means.

Futurism has the unenviable distinction of having its adherents call Christ "Lord" out of one side of their mouths while calling Him "liar" out of the other, because they simply cannot believe the words He spoke to His disciples aren't all about 21st century American evangelicals and fundies.

And these are the same people who call preterists "heretics." :toofunny

 

[Stormcrow]

"But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes. Matthew 10:23 (NASB)

"Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." Matthew 16:28 (NASB)

These verse's were fulfilled when Jesus Christ came up out of the heart of the earth with all the OT saints and showed Himself to the disciples.

For who is our hope or joy or crown of exultation? Is it not even you [Thessalonians], in the presence of our Lord Jesus at His coming? For you are our glory and joy. 1 Thessalonians 2:19-20 (NASB)

Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. The farmer waits for the precious produce of the soil, being patient about it, until it gets the early and late rains. You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near. James 5:7-8 (NASB)

I do fully testify, then, before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who is about to judge living and dead at his manifestation and his reign-- 2 Timothy 4:1 (YLT)

Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, rejoice! Let your gentle spirit be known to all men. The Lord is near. Philippians 4:4-5 (NASB)

All of these references, and others, to His coming came after He ascended. And they - like those from Matthew, cited above - refer to His second coming, not His resurrection!

 

[Tri Unity]

A and B cannot both be true. I would've thought a smart guy would know that.

Hi Stormcrow,

It has been 2000 years in total that futurism has been preached by the Church. Preterism was denounced via the creeds by proclaiming futurism as the only orthodox teaching. By default preterism was denounced. True, the doctrine of preterism only developed 500 years ago. All together, including the 1500 years it was denounced by universal acceptance of futurism for those 1500 years - with the continued proclamation of futurism since that time - this adds up to 2000 years in total that futurism has been proclaimed. Preterism is the denial of futurism and consequently preterism has been denounced as heresy.

Stormcrow, I can see you are a very intelligent man, and it is ungratifying to see your intelligence wasted on such views. I hope you will broaden the scope of your intelligence to factor in the possibility that you are wrong. The Church could not have got such an important universal teaching wrong from the 2nd century until now. Futurism is the strongest doctrine that the church has completely agreed on until now; inspite of a small faction developing in 1614 at the hand of Jesuits. It does not take too much reflection to see that something is rotten in Denmark.

God Bless
Steve

 

[Stormcrow]

http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/transcripts/eschatology/bbc_story.htm

Might pay to read what this pastor has to say about the persecution he suffered at the hands of futurists in the church he was pastoring.

You cannot believe in "sola scriptura" and place the creeds above the words of Christ. If disbelieving certain creeds makes one a heretic, what does disbelieving God's Word make you?

 

[Stormcrow]

[video=youtube;SFW8DMPYlsE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFW8DMPYlsE&feature=player_embedded[/video]

 

[JLB]

For who is our hope or joy or crown of exultation? Is it not even you [Thessalonians], in the presence of our Lord Jesus at His coming? For you are our glory and joy. 1 Thessalonians 2:19-20 (NASB)

Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. The farmer waits for the precious produce of the soil, being patient about it, until it gets the early and late rains. You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near. James 5:7-8 (NASB)

I do fully testify, then, before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who is about to judge living and dead at his manifestation and his reign-- 2 Timothy 4:1 (YLT)

Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, rejoice! Let your gentle spirit be known to all men. The Lord is near. Philippians 4:4-5 (NASB)

All of these references, and others, to His coming came after He ascended. And they - like those from Matthew, cited above - refer to His second coming, not His resurrection!

You made reference with scriptures from Matthew 10 and Matthew 16 which were before His resurrection. These scriptures were fulfilled, as Jesus said when He came up out of the heart of the earth.

refer to His second coming

Now that I have shown you how these scriptures were fulfilled, you have posted other scriptures which were written by Paul and James that pertain to His Second Coming!

Well I'm glad to see that you are finally coming around, and can see the difference! Hallelujah!


Jesus will return after... the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.



JLB

 

[Tri Unity]

http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/transcripts/eschatology/bbc_story.htm

Might pay to read what this pastor has to say about the persecution he suffered at the hands of futurists in the church he was pastoring.

You cannot believe in "sola scriptura" and place the creeds above the words of Christ. If disbelieving certain creeds makes one a heretic, what does disbelieving God's Word make you?

Thanks for the link. It didn't prove anything. ...A pastor's story about how he was convinced about being a full preterist. It is useful only to those who want an excuse to break with the church. This simply speaks of what level of convincing you required to accept this heretical idea. You don't seem to get that point - full preterism is a declared heresy. It has NEVER been accepted by the church as orthodox teaching. All of the church fathers, including Polycarp and Ignatius (who were taught by the Apostle John) looked forward to the future coming of Christ. The way you interpret scripture has never been accepted by any of the church fathers. That speaks volumes. It's ironic that you would listen to an uninspired pastor or Jesuit and yet reject the testimony of those taught by John.

 

[Jock]

Futurism has the unenviable distinction of having its adherents call Christ "Lord" out of one side of their mouths while calling Him "liar" out of the other, because they simply cannot believe the words He spoke to His disciples aren't all about 21st century American evangelicals and fundies.

And these are the same people who call preterists "heretics." :toofunny

Tell me which of Christs words do refer to our future.

Most believers I know want to know the truth for themselves without any man on earth telling them their particular view.

When they get saved, it is only the responsability of their fellow believers to help them to stay on the narrow road and the Lord Himself tells them what He wants them to know about their future. They do not need any of the mainstream or other views to guide them.

The dispy view is not the only alternative to the preterist view and to call those who do not believe in the preterist view to be calling Christ a liar, and have that uncensored by the moderators on this board can only lead to you talking to yourself.

bye.

LA

 

[Stormcrow]

You don't seem to get that point - full preterism is a declared heresy.

You don't get the point: you keep wanting to talk about what the church teaches versus what the Bible actually says. If it makes you feel better to call preterism heresy, by all means, continue. But calling it heresy doesn't change the truth of Christ's words or what the apostles taught.

The church has been wrong before. It is wrong about this. So go ahead and keep talking up the doctrines of men. I'll stand on the words of Christ and His apostles.

Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. The farmer waits for the precious produce of the soil, being patient about it, until it gets the early and late rains. You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near. James 5:7-8 (NASB)

James was either right or he lied to his readers.

Let your gentle spirit be known to all men. The Lord is near. Philippians 4:5 (NASB)

Paul was either right or he lied to his readers.

"Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." Matthew 16:28 (NASB)

Jesus was either right or he lied to his disciples.

Jesus *said to him, "You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN." Matthew 26:64 (NASB)

Jesus was either right or he lied to Caiaphas and the Sanhedrin.

"Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. Matthew 24:33-34 (NASB)

Jesus was either right or he lied to the disciples.

"But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man." Luke 21:36 (NASB)

Jesus was either right or he lied to the disciples.

"But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. Matthew 24:29-30 (NASB)

Jesus was either right or he lied to the disciples.

"But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes. Matthew 10:23 (NASB)

Jesus was either right or he lied to his disciples.

Now, show me any creed of man that takes precedence over the words of Christ and his apostles.

Creeds are statements of faith, not fact, and the fact remains that Jesus Christ Himself said He would return before that generation had passed. The fact remains that every single writer of the New Testament wrote with the expectation of His imminent return. These are the facts. Creeds that do not recognize these facts are worse than worthless. They are false teaching.

If Jesus Christ did not do what He said He would do, He is not who He claimed to be. Period. So the question remains: are you going to place your faith in the creeds of men or the words of Christ???

Call me "heretic" all you want, but the words of Christ trump any creed or doctrine of man any day of the week and twice on Sunday!

 

[Tri Unity]

Call me "heretic" all you want, but the words of Christ trump any creed or doctrine of man any day of the week and twice on Sunday!

I don't know if you are personally a heretic or not. A heretic is not just about one's beliefs, it is also about their intention and heart. I said preterism is heresy. You keep quoting the same scriptures as if you keep throwing mud hoping something will stick. You have manupilated the meaning of the scriptures to fit in with a heresy, that's all. You are not going to make a heresy orthodox just by repeating it a thousand times... that might fool some people, but it will also alarm most others, so keep doing it. You serve a purpose anyway.

 

[JLB]

You don't get the point: you keep wanting to talk about what the church teaches versus what the Bible actually says. If it makes you feel better to call preterism heresy, by all means, continue. But calling it heresy doesn't change the truth of Christ's words or what the apostles taught.

The church has been wrong before. It is wrong about this. So go ahead and keep talking up the doctrines of men. I'll stand on the words of Christ and His apostles.

Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. The farmer waits for the precious produce of the soil, being patient about it, until it gets the early and late rains. You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near. James 5:7-8 (NASB)

James was either right or he lied to his readers.

Let your gentle spirit be known to all men. The Lord is near. Philippians 4:5 (NASB)

Paul was either right or he lied to his readers.

"Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." Matthew 16:28 (NASB)

Jesus was either right or he lied to his disciples.

Jesus *said to him, "You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN." Matthew 26:64 (NASB)

Jesus was either right or he lied to Caiaphas and the Sanhedrin.

"Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. Matthew 24:33-34 (NASB)

Jesus was either right or he lied to the disciples.

"But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man." Luke 21:36 (NASB)

Jesus was either right or he lied to the disciples.

"But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. Matthew 24:29-30 (NASB)

Jesus was either right or he lied to the disciples.

"But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes. Matthew 10:23 (NASB)

Jesus was either right or he lied to his disciples.

Now, show me any creed of man that takes precedence over the words of Christ and his apostles.

Creeds are statements of faith, not fact, and the fact remains that Jesus Christ Himself said He would return before that generation had passed. The fact remains that every single writer of the New Testament wrote with the expectation of His imminent return. These are the facts. Creeds that do not recognize these facts are worse than worthless. They are false teaching.

If Jesus Christ did not do what He said He would do, He is not who He claimed to be. Period. So the question remains: are you going to place your faith in the creeds of men or the words of Christ???

Call me "heretic" all you want, but the words of Christ trump any creed or doctrine of man any day of the week and twice on Sunday!

These verse's have been explained to you.

Jesus Christ is the truth! He can not lie, you just simply misunderstand what He said.

Here is another example -

Jesus *said to him, "You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN." Matthew 26:64 (NASB)

Here is what Jesus said -

Jesus said to him, "It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven." Matthew 26:64


Now look what was said of this same event over 40 years later -

Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen. Revelation 1:7

When God says every eye will see Him, that is what He means.

This does not exclude people who are in heaven or in hell, whether they are alive or whether they are dead, every eye means everyone whether they are in the heart of the earth or in the heavens above.

God the Father will display His holy Son on that Day for all eyes to see!

• So you can rest assured that -

the chief priests, the elders, and all the council sought false testimony against Jesus to put Him to death...

These men that were responsible for His being pierced, will see Him sitting at the right hand of power and coming in the clouds!

• So you can rest assured that -

...those who had laid hold of Jesus led Him away to Caiaphas the high priest, where the scribes and the elders were assembled.


Caiaphas the high priest and the rest of the scribes and elders that had a hand in the "piercing" of Jesus Christ the Son of The Living God will see Him in His glorious place of authority at the right hand of Almighty God, as well as see Him coming in the clouds on that Day and they will surely mourn!

Whether they are in Hell or in Heaven or on Earth, every eye will see Him!

You err in thinking that the person that sees Him coming in the clouds must be on planet earth and alive in their mortal bodies for this scripture to be true!


You err not knowing the scripture or the power of God!


JLB

 

[Hitch]

When God says every eye will see Him, that is what He means.

Hmmm what does God mean when He says?;


1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

 

[JLB]

When God says every eye will see Him, that is what He means.

Hmmm what does God mean when He says?;


1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

LOL !!!! That is your whole preterist response, you need :help!

The whole preterist doctrine is based on your misunderstanding of some simple scriptures.

You people overlook major doctrinal truths to try and substantiate your misapplication and misunderstanding of scripture!


JLB

 

[Hitch]

LOL !!!! That is your whole preterist response, you need :help!

No its not but its more than enough to stump you

The whole preterist doctrine is based on your misunderstanding of some simple scriptures.

Then it should be all the easier for you to answer this simple question

You people overlook major doctrinal truths to try and substantiate your misapplication and misunderstanding of scripture!


JLB

I'll repeat the question so maybe you can come up with an answer. Here's your big chance, dont let me down , But then have you answered any of the questions I've put up?


When God says every eye will see Him, that is what He means.

Hmmm what does God mean when He says?;


1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.


Come on its only two 'simple' verses. No problem for a scholar like you, after all you and I both know your not really a literalist.