Some of the best NT verses threatening loss of salvation

[JLB]

John 10:27-29 ESV / 241 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
Open Bible.info

Is this not Eternal Security?

No.

• My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

Question:


How long does His sheep need to hear (obey, resulting in following)
and follow Him to receive eternal life.

And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.
Matthew 19:29

Hint: Jesus is leading His sheep somewhere.

The difficult way that leads to life, whereby few find it.




JLB

 

[Truthfrees]

John 10:27-29 ESV / 241 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
Open Bible.info

Is this not Eternal Security?

maybe we should use a scriptural word - we could simply say:

NEVER PERISH

LOSE NONE THAT THE FATHER GIVES

SEALED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT

there is no scripture stating we can lose salvation - fall away etc does not mention salvation one way or the other - so interpretation is involved when we use terms not found in the bible - maybe we should reject all terms not found in the bible -

the scriptures are very clear that we are sealed - and those who walk away never belonged - these are exact scriptures - no need to interpret

 

[GodsGrace]

John 10:27-29 ESV / 241 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
Open Bible.info

Is this not Eternal Security?

No. It's not.

A verse cannot be taken by itself...it could then mean anything.

This happens to be FreeGrace s favorite verse too...
John 10:28. So let's go over it really well.

We'll have to start a little before so we could get the proper context...one verse alone means very little if we don't understand why or what is being said...

John 10:24-29

24The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”
25Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me. 26“But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
27“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29“My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

What can we learn from the above:

1. verse 24-25
The Jews are still asking Jesus who He is. He replies that He has told them, but they do not believe. So we have those that believe He is God and those that do not believe.
Those that do not believe do not trust Jesus' being the Christ.

2. verse 26-27
Why do some Jews not believe?
Because they are not of Jesus' sheep.
Jesus' sheep believe their shepherd.
They hear His voice.
They know Him...and He knows them.
They follow Him.

3. Jesus gives eternal life to THEM.
Who are THEM?
HIS sheep.
His sheep will never perish.
Nothing can take them out of His hand because God has all power and authority.

He does not, however, take away our free will to walk out of His hand. Did we lose our free will when we became born again? No. This can be proven from scripture...we retain our free will,,,the same free will we have in Genesis...
Genesis 2:17
And that we still have in Revelation...
Revelation 3:20.... those who HEAR His voice and open the door, are His sheep.

Jesus gives eternal life TO HIS SHEEP.
It's important to understand WHO His sheep are since THEY are the ones receiving eternal life.

They:

1. Hear His voice.
We all know that Hear does not mean an audible hearing with only the ear, but a hearing that goes to the heart and is transferred into understanding what Jesus wants of us.

2. They Know Him and He knows THEM.
Knowing in biblical terms is also more than knowing ABOUT someone, but knowing them in an intimate way....like we would know a best friend or a spouse.
The fact they they KNOW EACH OTHER represents a relationship....an intimate relationship.

3. THEY follow Him.
Jesus' sheep follow Him as their good shepherd.
To follow means to harken to...
to obey...
to emulate...
to trust...
etc.

If someone is living in sin, is he following Jesus?
If someone no longer trusts Jesus...is he a sheep of His?
If someone no longer listens to Jesus...are they a sheep?

James said to be a doer of the word and not only a hearer.
James 1:22-23
He states that those that are only hearers (with the ear) and not doers are deluding themselves.

James is stating that some are deluding themselves...
Those that claim they are still saved when living a life of sin.

Jesus is the life.
If we are IN JESUS, we are in the life.

If we are not following Jesus as sheep do, then we are not IN HIM, and we do not have the life.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I'm surprised at how many people here think good works will get them to heaven.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I'm surprised at how many people here think good works will get them to heaven.

Jude 1:22;
"Be merciful to those who doubt".

 

[GodsGrace]

maybe we should use a scriptural word - we could simply say:

NEVER PERISH

LOSE NONE THAT THE FATHER GIVES

SEALED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT

there is no scripture stating we can lose salvation - fall away etc does not mention salvation one way or the other - so interpretation is involved when we use terms not found in the bible - maybe we should reject all terms not found in the bible -

the scriptures are very clear that we are sealed - and those who walk away never belonged - these are exact scriptures - no need to interpret

Those that walked away were gnostics.
John was very concerned with gnostics and this is why he mentions them.

They had invaded the church early on.
Of course they never belonged...a short time with real Christians made that clear.

Losing none that the Father gives...
Who does the Father give?
Are there conditions to being born again?
THESE are the ones the Father gives to the Son.
Those that accepted the conditions.

Do you suppose the conditions change after salvation?
No.
The same God that saved you and whose conditions you accepted, is the same God that will keep you for as long as you agree to those conditions.

The sealing...
There's no such thing.
The Holy Spirit seals those that are His, for as long as they are His.

And who are they? Those that pay their monthly fee for having this guarantee... We pay an earnest....if we stop paying the earnest, we are no longer saved.

Your mortgage guarantees that your house belongs to you.
What happens if you stop paying your mortgage?
Is the house still yours?
No.

As I've said many times before....IF the writers knew we would take language so literally, they would have been more careful as to how they expressed themselves.

They expressed themselves in these ways because it was NEVER even imagined that someone could think they'd be saved forever, NO MATTER WHAT.

Here are some saying of the ECFs.
A word to the wise.....
There are many more....
They knew the Apostles or were one degree removed....
WHO could know more?
They are the same fathers who compiled the N.T.
Do we trust them or not?

The way of light, then, is as follows. If anyone desires to travel to the appointed place, he must be zealous in his works. . . . He who keeps them will be glorified in the kingdom of God. However, he who chooses other things will be destroyed with his works. Barnabas (c. 70-130), 1.148, 149.

We are justified by our works and not our words. Clement of Rome (c. 96), 1.13.

. . . that He may both hear you, and perceive by your works that you are indeed the members of His Son. . . . Faith cannot do the works of unbelief, nor unbelief the works of faith. . . . The tree is made manifest by its fruit. So those who profess themselves to be Christians will be recognized by their conduct. . . . It is better for a man to be silent and be [a Christian], than to talk and not be one. Ignatius (c. 105), 1.51-55.

Therefore, brethren, by doing the will of the Father, and keeping the flesh holy, and observing the commandments of the Lord, we will obtain eternal life. Second Clement (c. 150), 7.519.

Only those who fear the Lord and keep His commandments have life with God; but as for those who do not keep His commandments, there is no life in them. Hermas (c. 150), 2.25.

We . . . hasten to confess our faith, persuaded and convinced as we are that those who have proved to God by their works that they followed Him, and loved to abide with Him where there is no sin to cause disturbance, can obtain these things. . . . Each man goes to everlasting punishment or salvation according to the value of his actions. Justin Martyr (c. 160), 1.165, 166.

We will give account to God not only of deeds (as slaves), but even of words and thoughts (as being those who have truly received the power of liberty). For under liberty, a man is more severely tested as to whether he will reverence, fear, and love the Lord. . . . God desires obedience, which renders [His worshippers] secure—rather than sacrifices and burnt-offerings, which avail men nothing toward righteousness. Irenaeus (c. 180), 1.482.

When we hear, "Your faith has saved you," we do not understand Him to say absolutely that those who have believed in any way whatsoever will be saved. For works must also follow. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195), 2.505.

 

[Truthfrees]

it really appears that we are all arguing over terms not found in the bible - if we reject osas - osnas - eternal security - lose salvation - and all the man made terms we might get a little further in coming to unity

i guess adding and subtracting from scripture could include creating man made terms

man made terms need a whole lot of explanation because everyone understands a term differently

scripture on the other hand is an awesome thing to keep looking at

if we read a scripture and wonder what it means and keep reading scripture in context God can use His own words to enlighten us - and we will spend a lot of time looking ONLY at the scripture

once we start adding our words into the mix we start disagreeing with the human words added to the scripture discussion

God's words are pure - ours not so - just thinking out loud as these labels and terms seem to be going round and round for 43 pages

too bad we didn't have 43 pages of beautiful scriptures being studied berean style

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm surprised at how many people here think good works will get them to heaven.

Are you replying to my post no. 845?

Did I mention works?
Which are necessary BTW.

Works do not save us.
Faith saves us.
Works prove that we are saved and wish to please God.

Those who say works are not necessary have a problem with their salvation.

James...faith without works is DEAD. (non-existent)
James 2:17
James 2:20

 

[GodsGrace]

it really appears that we are all arguing over terms not found in the bible - if we reject osas - osnas - eternal security - lose salvation - and all the man made terms we might get a little further in coming to unity

i guess adding and subtracting from scripture could include creating man made terms

man made terms need a whole lot of explanation because everyone understands a term differently

scripture on the other hand is an awesome thing to keep looking at

if we read a scripture and wonder what it means and keep reading scripture in context God can use His own words to enlighten us - and we will spend a lot of time looking ONLY at the scripture

once we start adding our words into the mix we start disagreeing with the human words added to the scripture discussion

God's words are pure - ours not so - just thinking out loud as these labels and terms seem to be going round and round for 43 pages

too bad we didn't have 43 pages of beautiful scriptures being studied berean style

Explaining a scripture is called exegesis...
It is NOT adding man's words to scripture.

I'd love to speak with God's words but I don't know how...
Do you???

We MUST use man's words...it's the only way we have to talk.

In all my explanation in 845, I do not believe I added any of my own words but only explained, very plainly, what the verses are saying.

If you think I added words to it...please state those words.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Are you replying to my post no. 845?

Did I mention works?
Which are necessary BTW.

Works do not save us.
Faith saves us.
Works prove that we are saved and wish to please God.

Those who say works are not necessary have a problem with their salvation.

James...faith without works is DEAD. (non-existent)
James 2:17
James 2:20

Lol, Interesting
You quote James 2:17 and 2:20 but ignore my quote using 2:19.
There you go with your pick and choose Bible study again.

 

[GodsGrace]

Lol, Interesting
You quote James 21:17 and 2:20 but ignore my quote using 2:19.
There you go with your pick and choose Bible study again.

Sorry, I lost that with all the posting.


James 2:18-19

18But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”
19You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.


I'm sorry AW, I don't understand why you posted this.
It's simply saying that even the demons "believe", that is with the MIND, that God exists (or is one).

BUT, WE have to "believe" with our whole heart, mind and soul. Which is MORE than just believing with the mind.

Mathew 22:36-37
36“Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37And He said to him, “ ‘YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’

I'm more than willing to go through any verse with you.

 

[Truthfrees]

Those that walked away were gnostics.
John was very concerned with gnostics and this is why he mentions them.

They had invaded the church early on.
Of course they never belonged...a short time with real Christians made that clear.

Losing none that the Father gives...
Who does the Father give?
Are there conditions to being born again?
THESE are the ones the Father gives to the Son.
Those that accepted the conditions.

Do you suppose the conditions change after salvation?
No.
The same God that saved you and whose conditions you accepted, is the same God that will keep you for as long as you agree to those conditions.

The sealing...
There's no such thing.
The Holy Spirit seals those that are His, for as long as they are His.

And who are they? Those that pay their monthly fee for having this guarantee... We pay an earnest....if we stop paying the earnest, we are no longer saved.

Your mortgage guarantees that your house belongs to you.
What happens if you stop paying your mortgage?
Is the house still yours?
No.

As I've said many times before....IF the writers knew we would take language so literally, they would have been more careful as to how they expressed themselves.

They expressed themselves in these ways because it was NEVER even imagined that someone could think they'd be saved forever, NO MATTER WHAT.

Here are some saying of the ECFs.
A word to the wise.....
There are many more....
They knew the Apostles or were one degree removed....
WHO could know more?
They are the same fathers who compiled the N.T.
Do we trust them or not?

The way of light, then, is as follows. If anyone desires to travel to the appointed place, he must be zealous in his works. . . . He who keeps them will be glorified in the kingdom of God. However, he who chooses other things will be destroyed with his works. Barnabas (c. 70-130), 1.148, 149.

We are justified by our works and not our words. Clement of Rome (c. 96), 1.13.

. . . that He may both hear you, and perceive by your works that you are indeed the members of His Son. . . . Faith cannot do the works of unbelief, nor unbelief the works of faith. . . . The tree is made manifest by its fruit. So those who profess themselves to be Christians will be recognized by their conduct. . . . It is better for a man to be silent and be [a Christian], than to talk and not be one. Ignatius (c. 105), 1.51-55.

Therefore, brethren, by doing the will of the Father, and keeping the flesh holy, and observing the commandments of the Lord, we will obtain eternal life. Second Clement (c. 150), 7.519.

Only those who fear the Lord and keep His commandments have life with God; but as for those who do not keep His commandments, there is no life in them. Hermas (c. 150), 2.25.

We . . . hasten to confess our faith, persuaded and convinced as we are that those who have proved to God by their works that they followed Him, and loved to abide with Him where there is no sin to cause disturbance, can obtain these things. . . . Each man goes to everlasting punishment or salvation according to the value of his actions. Justin Martyr (c. 160), 1.165, 166.

We will give account to God not only of deeds (as slaves), but even of words and thoughts (as being those who have truly received the power of liberty). For under liberty, a man is more severely tested as to whether he will reverence, fear, and love the Lord. . . . God desires obedience, which renders [His worshippers] secure—rather than sacrifices and burnt-offerings, which avail men nothing toward righteousness. Irenaeus (c. 180), 1.482.

When we hear, "Your faith has saved you," we do not understand Him to say absolutely that those who have believed in any way whatsoever will be saved. For works must also follow. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195), 2.505.

i try reading the words of others - but they really are not anywhere near as powerful as scripture imo - they are like talmud - wise words sometimes - inaccurate words other times - and who is going to be able to know which is which with the words of man?

they are like commentaries - and commentaries are interesting if a person has time to read all of that

the apostles DEVOTED themselves to FASTING and PRAYER and the READING of SCRIPTURE - Acts 13:2 - Acts 6:4

what would happen here with all of us wonderful people if we would undertake to do the same thing together as a group? - pray together - read scripture together - and seek the Lord on what it means? - wouldn't we come more into unity than what we are doing now?

right now we see where each other is wrong - and the truth is we all think we are right - so we are not getting anywhere profitable imo

just putting this out for consideration to see if we can break this deadlock and go deeper in God with perhaps a different tactic

 

[GodsGrace]

i try reading the words of others - but they really are not anywhere near as powerful as scripture imo - they are like talmud - wise words sometimes - inaccurate words other times - and who is going to be able to know which is which with the words of man?

they are like commentaries - and commentaries are interesting if a person has time to read all of that

the apostles DEVOTED themselves to FASTING and PRAYER and the READING of SCRIPTURE - Acts 13:2 - Acts 6:4

what would happen here with all of us wonderful people if we would undertake to do the same thing together as a group? - pray together - read scripture together - and seek the Lord on what it means? - wouldn't we come more into unity than what we are doing now?

right now we see where each other is wrong - and the truth is we all think we are right - so we are not getting anywhere profitable imo

just putting this out for consideration to see if we can break this deadlock and go deeper in God with perhaps a different tactic

I like to start different types of threads in the theology forum. Threads that do not cause dissension, but rather promote unity and differing opinions because the different opinions are of little matter.

OSAS, Eternal Security, Perseverance of the Saints...is not something of little matter. It's very important ....

Perhaps we could start with explaining the distinctions in these 3 very closely related doctrine?

I'm sorry that I have to leave shortly, but I'll start with
OSAS:

Once saved Always saved means that once a person has been saved...nothing they do can take that salvation away.
As I've posted from other forums, and as we read right here on this site, some believe that they can sin all they want to and still not lose their salvation..NO MATTER WHAT THEY DO.

Can we agree that THIS is wrong?
Maybe we can stop calling it OSAS?
The problem is that those of us, here, on this particular thread are NOT going to change the language of every single believer out there....so OSAS will continue to be used incorrectly, really meaning something else (in my opinion they really mean eternal security).

Maybe someone else can explain Eternal Security?
OR I'll be back later.

(E.S.-----being secure in Christ).

 

[GodsGrace]

it really appears that we are all arguing over terms not found in the bible - if we reject osas - osnas - eternal security - lose salvation - and all the man made terms we might get a little further in coming to unity

i guess adding and subtracting from scripture could include creating man made terms

man made terms need a whole lot of explanation because everyone understands a term differently

scripture on the other hand is an awesome thing to keep looking at

if we read a scripture and wonder what it means and keep reading scripture in context God can use His own words to enlighten us - and we will spend a lot of time looking ONLY at the scripture

once we start adding our words into the mix we start disagreeing with the human words added to the scripture discussion

God's words are pure - ours not so - just thinking out loud as these labels and terms seem to be going round and round for 43 pages

too bad we didn't have 43 pages of beautiful scriptures being studied berean style

Oops.
One last thing...
You like terms...
How about these:

FALL AWAY
IF YOU CONTINUE
LOST
BELIEVE FOR A WHILE
ERASE FROM THE BOOK OF LIFE
HE WHO OVERCOMES
ENDURE TO THE END
ABIDE IN HIM
CUT THE BRANCHES

so many more...
came to mind while getting ready...
the Holy Spirit always gives us the words!

 

[ezra]

But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
Matthew 13:20-21


Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.
Luke 8:12-13

The condition Jesus gives us for salvation is to believe.

• lest they should believe and be saved.

These folks in group 2 did in fact believe.


What did they fall away from if they were never saved?

• The phrase “received the word” indicates believing the Gospel.

• Jesus said they believed.

• The reason they fell away was because they were being persecuted as Christians; Believers.

JLB

have it your way my Bible says temptations --it dont say what temptations ..have a good day i will be preaching this morning..lay aside our indifference pray that the preacher gets there (anointing ) we can believe in our mind .but not the heart

 

[ezra]

Oops.
One last thing...
You like terms...
How about these:

FALL AWAY
IF YOU CONTINUE
LOST
BELIEVE FOR A WHILE
ERASE FROM THE BOOK OF LIFE
HE WHO OVERCOMES
ENDURE TO THE END
ABIDE IN HIM
CUT THE BRANCHES

so many more...
came to mind while getting ready...
the Holy Spirit always gives us the words!

your never going to get a real answer both sides has good points i studied it for years.. my conclusion. i had rather leave this life knowing i tried to live for Him yes i have failed many times. but i get back up dust my self off approach the throne of Grace with Boldness

 

[JLB]

have it your way my Bible says temptations --it dont say what temptations .

It does say exactly what temptation.

It’s doesn’t say temptations. Plural

It says temptation. Singular


It’s the temptation to renounce Christ as the Messiah, while being persecuted, and thereby departing from (fall away) Him, to save your temporary natural life, at the expense of losing your eternal life.


That’s exactly what the “temptation” refers to in this verse and context.




JLB

 

[ezra]

It’s the temptation to renounce Christ as the Messiah, while being persecuted, and thereby departing from (fall away) Him, to save your temporary natural life, at the expense of losing your eternal life.


That’s exactly what the “temptation” refers to in this verse and context.

pardon my sloppy English

It’s the temptation to renounce Christ as the Messiah, while being persecuted, and thereby departing from

where does it say that in the parable ?

 

[ezra]

have it your way my Bible says temptations --it dont say what temptations ..have a good day i will be preaching this morning..lay aside our indifference pray that the preacher gets there (anointing ) we can believe in our mind .but not the heart

thanks for the prayers i hope.. i know i prayed

 

[JLB]

pardon my sloppy English where does it say that in the parable ?

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13



These likewise are the ones sown on stony ground who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with gladness; and they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word’s sake, immediately they stumble. Matthew 13:20-21




But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. Mark 4:16-17




JLB