Some of the best NT verses threatening loss of salvation

[GodsGrace]

I'm interested in what the Word of God says and means.


Well, they have a huge problem then, because the Bible is clear about God's painful discipline towards those who think they can do nothing wrong, or that there will be no consequences for their willful sin.


I don't let such people bother me.


I fully agree with you. Their theology has huge problems, as well as holes, in them.


It saddens me to read this when I've shared John 10:28 many times. Jesus couldn't have been more clear about eternal security. When someone believes, they POSSESS eternal life, per John 5:24, 6:47, 1 John 5:11 and 13. Then Jesus said He is the One who gives eternal life (to believers and when they believe), and the result is that THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH.

So those who keep adding "conditions" for recipients of eternal life to fulfill are not believing what Jesus said. To add conditions to Scripture that has no conditions is to distort the Scripture.


Yet, where is the clear verse that salvation can be lost? It doesn't occur.


None of this says salvation is conditioned upon loving the brothers (and sisters). There is no mention of salvation in these verses, nor warnings of loss of salvation.

And John 10:28 refutes such an "interpretation" of 1 John 5:2-4.

Please read ahead to v.11 and 13 in 1 Jn 5. These 2 verses say the same thing as John 5:24 and 6:47, that whoever believes possesses eternal life.


This is NOT about salvation, but about spiritual growth.


Sorry, but this verse doesn't come close to supporting your "condition".

What v.31 doesn't say is that "if you continue in My word, then you continue to be saved", but that seems to be what you think it means.

In post no. 796 you stated the following:

Interesting opinion, but Jesus said differently. He actually said they "believed for a while". And because they DID believe, He DID give them eternal life, per John 5:24 and 6:47, and repeated in 1 John 5:11 and 13. The result is that they shall never perish, per John 10:28.

I asked you to please clarify this.
If one believes AT ONE TIME OR OTHER,,,,and returns to a life of sin.....can he become lost?

IOW, what you're saying is that one remains saved NO MATTER WHAT?

 

[FreeGrace]

Wait.
You mean you believe that someone could never fall away NO MATTER WHAT?

Many who have believed HAVE ceased to believe, which is what Jesus meant in Luke 8:13 about those who "believed for a while".

But, if you mean "lose salvation" by the words "fall away", then YES, I believe that "no matter what", they CANNOT lose their salvation.

If they're saved at some time in their life,,,they remain saved forever NO MATTER WHAT?

Yes, because Jesus said as much. He gives the gift of eternal life when one believes, per John 5:24 and 6:47, and re-iterated by John in 1 John 5:11 and 13.

And Jesus said recipients of eternal life (believrs) shall never perish. And He didn't take a breath and add any condition between "I give them (believers) eternal life" and "they shall never perish".

Actually, Paul made such a bold statement about "now matter what" in 1 Thess 5:10
"He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him."

Now, some will claim that "awake or asleep" only refers to be physically alive or dead, from the previous chapter and the rapture.

However, in ch 5, v.4-9 presents a contrast in lifestyles, with being "awake" a metaphor for living according to Christian principles, and being "asleep" a metaphor for how unbelievers live.

The concept of coming awake as a metaphor for living the Christian life is seen in a number of verses.

Rom 13:11-14
11 And do this, understanding the present time: The hour has already come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed.
12 The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light.
13 Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy.
14 Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the flesh.

Clearly, this passage uses "wake up" as a metaphor for Christian behavior, in contrast to unChristian behavior.

Eph 5:14 - This is why it is said: “Wake up, sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.”

This is a command to believers to wake up. "shine on you" refers to blessings.

Rev 3:2,3
2 Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have found your deeds unfinished in the sight of my God.
3 Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

Rev 16:15 - “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

All of these verses clearly indicate that 1 Thess 5:10 means that regardless of how the believer has been living, when Christ comes, they will live together with Him.

This is a clear promise of eternal security. Just as John 10:28 is and 1 Pet 1:23 is.

The clearly stated verses are about eternal security. Whatever verses are quoted in support of conditional salvation don't actually say anything clear about loss of salvation, or any conditions of behavior that will guarantee salvation.

 

[FreeGrace]

Continue to believe is noted many times in the N.T.

Yes, but none of the verses mentions anything about losing salvation, or keeping salvation by continuing to believe. Check out the context.

Let's check out the following:

John 8:29-31 JESUS SAID
29“And He who sent Me is with Me; He has not left Me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to Him.” 30As He spoke these things, many came to believe in Him.
31So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; "

Nothing here about losing salvation, but rather, about being a real student (disciple) of Jesus. I will assume you've attended school. And I'm pretty sure during that time you noticed that not all students applied themselves in learning what was being taught.

However, whether they paid attention or not, they were all legitimate students nonetheless. By "not paying attention" didn't revoke their student status.

Jesus HIMSELF states that IF we CONTINUE in HIS WORD...
then we are disciples of His.

See above.

And only those who obey Jesus and do as He does, will see Him in heaven:

Scripture, please. I've nevef seen such a verse.

Matthew 7:21-23 JESUS SAID:
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

What stands out quite obviously is the basis for this crowd's argument for wanting to enter the kingdom; based on what THEY did for Jesus. iow, works.

What is equally as obvious is what they didn't do: believe in what Jesus did for them.

The reason that they address Jesus as Lord should be obvious. They are at the Great White Throne Judgment and Jesus is sitting on the Throne. Every knee will bow, and everyone will address Him as Lord. So please don't take their use of "Lord" as significant for anything other than the fact that they are standing before their Judge.

However, v.23 gives us the key. By saying to them, "I never knew you" Jesus was indicating that they NEVER believed in Him.

If any of that crowd HAD believed in Him, He would have given them eternal life, per His own words in John 5:24, 6:47 and 10:28. And He WOULD HAVE known them.

So, by saying "I never knew you" He was indicating that they were never believers.

 

[GodsGrace]

Many who have believed HAVE ceased to believe, which is what Jesus meant in Luke 8:13 about those who "believed for a while".

But, if you mean "lose salvation" by the words "fall away", then YES, I believe that "no matter what", they CANNOT lose their salvation.


Yes, because Jesus said as much. He gives the gift of eternal life when one believes, per John 5:24 and 6:47, and re-iterated by John in 1 John 5:11 and 13.

And Jesus said recipients of eternal life (believrs) shall never perish. And He didn't take a breath and add any condition between "I give them (believers) eternal life" and "they shall never perish".

Actually, Paul made such a bold statement about "now matter what" in 1 Thess 5:10
"He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him."

Now, some will claim that "awake or asleep" only refers to be physically alive or dead, from the previous chapter and the rapture.

However, in ch 5, v.4-9 presents a contrast in lifestyles, with being "awake" a metaphor for living according to Christian principles, and being "asleep" a metaphor for how unbelievers live.

The concept of coming awake as a metaphor for living the Christian life is seen in a number of verses.

Rom 13:11-14
11 And do this, understanding the present time: The hour has already come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed.
12 The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light.
13 Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy.
14 Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the flesh.

Clearly, this passage uses "wake up" as a metaphor for Christian behavior, in contrast to unChristian behavior.

Eph 5:14 - This is why it is said: “Wake up, sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.”

This is a command to believers to wake up. "shine on you" refers to blessings.

Rev 3:2,3
2 Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have found your deeds unfinished in the sight of my God.
3 Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

Rev 16:15 - “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

All of these verses clearly indicate that 1 Thess 5:10 means that regardless of how the believer has been living, when Christ comes, they will live together with Him.

This is a clear promise of eternal security. Just as John 10:28 is and 1 Pet 1:23 is.

The clearly stated verses are about eternal security. Whatever verses are quoted in support of conditional salvation don't actually say anything clear about loss of salvation, or any conditions of behavior that will guarantee salvation.

You do this! You post a lot and I have little time...
I will answer you but it'll have to wait till tomorrow or much later. Sorry - in a different time zone.

I do have one condition for you however. I can't remember if we ever discussed this...maybe we have.
The condition throughout the entire N.T. is that we must BELIEVE.

You agree from your first paragraph that some do cease to believe.

What happens if they cease to believe?
Everywhere the word believe is used...it's in the present (English) tense. No where does it say that if we believed at some point in time are we saved forever.

So....what happens if we cease to believe (which you agree could happen)?

 

[FreeGrace]

In post no. 796 you stated the following:

Interesting opinion, but Jesus said differently. He actually said they "believed for a while". And because they DID believe, He DID give them eternal life, per John 5:24 and 6:47, and repeated in 1 John 5:11 and 13. The result is that they shall never perish, per John 10:28.

I asked you to please clarify this.
If one believes AT ONE TIME OR OTHER,,,,and returns to a life of sin.....can he become lost?

No, they can't become lost. If that were true, then John 10:28 cannot be true.

I believe what Scripture says and not what people opine.

IOW, what you're saying is that one remains saved NO MATTER WHAT?

I've already answered this question. And proved my answer from a number of Scriptures.

 

[JLB]

Correct. And that is WHEN he is given eternal life. John 5:24, 6:47, 1 Jn 5:11, 13.

As long as we are in Christ, join to Him as one spirit, we are joined to the Spirit of Life that Is only found in Christ.

But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 1 Corinthians 6:17


Those who are in Christ, but don’t remain in Him, are cast into the fire and burned.


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:6



JLB

 

[JLB]

No, they can't become lost. If that were true, then John 10:28 cannot be true.

No not at all.

John 10:27-28 are true and as well as Luke 15:4-7


All true.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

You do this! You post a lot and I have little time...

My posts are either in answer to a poster, or a response to a poster.

I will answer you but it'll have to wait till tomorrow or much later. Sorry - in a different time zone.

No need to apologize for what God has done. Acts 17:26 - From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. iow, God determines the WHEN and WHERE all humans occur in history.

I do have one condition for you however. I can't remember if we ever discussed this...maybe we have.
The condition throughout the entire N.T. is that we must BELIEVE.

You agree from your first paragraph that some do cease to believe.

What happens if they cease to believe?

They will face God's painful discipline, per Heb 12:11. Also indicated by 1 Cor 5:5, and 11:30.

Everywhere the word believe is used...it's in the present (English) tense. No where does it say that if we believed at some point in time are we saved forever.

This is incorrect. The aorist tense is used a number of times, and in regard to salvation. It generally indicates a point in time action, usually in the past.

As to the second sentence, so what? There are NO verses that say ceasing to believe will result in loss of salvation. So why believe that?

So....what happens if we cease to believe (which you agree could happen)?

The former believer shall never perish. Because Jesus gave no conditions to those He gives eternal life, which are believers. And from John 5:24, 6:47, 1 John 5:11 and 13, we know that one possesses eternal life WHEN one believes.

So John 10:28 becomes THE MOST IMPORTANT AND CLEAR verse in the Bible about eternal security.

Also consider these 2 verses:

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Notice that the red words in both verses are the SAME?

Therefore, condemnation is for those who HAVE NOT BELIEVED.

Therefore, anyone who has believed, but later, for any reason, ceases to believe, is not condemned. Which comports with John 10:28 and no conditions for never perishing once eternal life is given.

The ONLY REASON for this is grace. We don't merit anything. And since Christ died for all sin, even ceasing to believe was covered.

 

[JLB]

No, they can't become lost. If that were true, then John 10:28 cannot be true.

I believe what Scripture says and not what people opine.


I've already answered this question. And proved my answer from a number of Scriptures.

His sheep, sheep that belong to him, can indeed become lost.

• having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them,

“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7



JLB

 

[JLB]

They will face God's painful discipline, per Heb 12:11. Also indicated by 1 Cor 5:5, and 11:30.

They will face God’s wrath.


God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:6-8

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

No, they can't become lost. If that were true, then John 10:28 cannot be true.

I believe what Scripture says and not what people opine.


I've already answered this question. And proved my answer from a number of Scriptures.

John 10:28 is true, as is EVERY verse in the N.T.

John 10:26-28 Jesus:
26“But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
27“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

What can we learn from the above....

1. The sheep that DO NOT BELIEVE are not of Jesus' sheep/fold.

2. HIS sheep hear His voice and DO HIS WILL by FOLLOWING HIM. IF we follow Him we are His dicsiples, if we DO NOT follow Him, we are NOT His disciples and we are NOT His sheep because His sheep hear His voice and they follow Him.

3. He gives eternal life to THEM...
To the sheep that follow Him and are His disciples and to the sheep that HEAR His voice.

Please substitute persons for sheep.....
Only persons that belong to JESUS can have eternal life.
He only gives eternal life to HIS.
We cannot be His unless we follow Him.

 

[FreeGrace]

As long as we are in Christ, join to Him as one spirit, we are joined to the Spirit of Life that Is only found in Christ.

"as long as"......?? Where is that found in Scripture? Please post any Scripture that addresses the sealing with the Holy Spirit and warns believers of how to "break that seal".

But I know that can't be done as there are no verses that say such a thing.

In fact, those sealed with the Spirit are guaranteed an inheritance, according to Eph 1:14 and 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5.

But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 1 Corinthians 6:17

OK. ??

Those who are in Christ, but don’t remain in Him, are cast into the fire and burned.

I'm still waiting for any verse that plainly says anyone who has been sealed IN CHRIST can be unsealed. Until that is shown from Scripture, there is no case for such a claim.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:6

This has already been explained, in detail, and many times.

John 15 is about bearing fruit and how to do so; by abiding in Christ. This isn't about the sealing with the Holy Spirit, as in Eph 1:13,14, or 4:30, or 2 Cor 1:22 or 5:5.

The abiding in John 15 is about fellowship with the Lord. Which is the only way one can bear fruit.

Does it seem logical that a believer who is out of fellowship will bear fruit? Of course not.

 

[GodsGrace]

My posts are either in answer to a poster, or a response to a poster.


No need to apologize for what God has done. Acts 17:26 - From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. iow, God determines the WHEN and WHERE all humans occur in history.


They will face God's painful discipline, per Heb 12:11. Also indicated by 1 Cor 5:5, and 11:30.


This is incorrect. The aorist tense is used a number of times, and in regard to salvation. It generally indicates a point in time action, usually in the past.

As to the second sentence, so what? There are NO verses that say ceasing to believe will result in loss of salvation. So why believe that?


The former believer shall never perish. Because Jesus gave no conditions to those He gives eternal life, which are believers. And from John 5:24, 6:47, 1 John 5:11 and 13, we know that one possesses eternal life WHEN one believes.

So John 10:28 becomes THE MOST IMPORTANT AND CLEAR verse in the Bible about eternal security.

Also consider these 2 verses:

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Notice that the red words in both verses are the SAME?

Therefore, condemnation is for those who HAVE NOT BELIEVED.

Therefore, anyone who has believed, but later, for any reason, ceases to believe, is not condemned. Which comports with John 10:28 and no conditions for never perishing once eternal life is given.

The ONLY REASON for this is grace. We don't merit anything. And since Christ died for all sin, even ceasing to believe was covered.

Must go.
Please explain the aorist tense.
Give some examples and compare it to the English,,,as best you can.


This might help to make your point.
Even though I'm sure it won't...it could help some reading along.

Thanks.

 

[Truthfrees]

The issue is whether "never belonged" refers to unbelievers, or believers who adhere to false doctrines.

imo unbelievers

 

[FreeGrace]

John 10:28 is true, as is EVERY verse in the N.T.

Of course. But it's sad how many misunderstand so many verses. Which has given rise to a bunch of theological positions, all of which contradict each other.

John 10:26-28 Jesus:
26“But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
27“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

What can we learn from the above....

1. The sheep that DO NOT BELIEVE are not of Jesus' sheep/fold.

Correct.

2. HIS sheep hear His voice and DO HIS WILL by FOLLOWING HIM. IF we follow Him we are His dicsiples, if we DO NOT follow Him, we are NOT His disciples and we are NOT His sheep because His sheep hear His voice and they follow Him.

Incorrect. v.27 is a "policy" statement, not a practice statement.

I gave an example of the difference between a policy and practice statement.

In the restrooms of restaurants we see a sign on the way out that reads something like, "employees will wash their hands". Now, it should be obvious that it would be naive to think that this sign means that every single employee washes their hands every single time they use the restroom.

The sign is a policy of the restaurant. It's NOT a statement of practice. It's what the employees SHOULD DO. Not necessarily what every employee does do.

Only those who understand this example will understand the significance of v.27 as a policy statement, not a practice statement.

It certainly isn't a condition for anything, as some have claimed.

3. He gives eternal life to THEM...
To the sheep that follow Him and are His disciples and to the sheep that HEAR His voice.

Also incorrect. There are no conditions from v.27 that apply to v.28. In fact, Jesus never took a breath or added ANY conditions between giving eternal life and recipients never perishing.

Please substitute persons for sheep.....
Only persons that belong to JESUS can have eternal life.
He only gives eternal life to HIS.
We cannot be His unless we follow Him.

The 3rd sentence is NOT found in the verses.

To correct it, it should read:
we cannot be His unless be believe in Him.

To follow is a policy statement, not a practice statement. iow, everyone who has believed in Christ SHOULD practice following Him.

Your position has not been supported from Scripture.

 

[FreeGrace]

Must go.
Please explain the aorist tense.

I did. A point in time action, usually in the past. There is no time aspect to the aorist.

Here are some helps with Greek tenses:

Greek Verb Tenses (Intermediate Discussion)

Greek Conditional Sentences

Course II, Lesson 9

Give some examples and compare it to the English,,,as best you can.

Generally, the past tense is used.

 

[FreeGrace]

very long post - i want to make sure i understand everything - thank you for answering my questions - i was looking for input from you and others who i agree with in this thread

You're very welcome!

so starting at the first of your post i am trying to understand why you think these people are believers - especially when i read the context of that verse - it seems to me they are pretenders who snuck in among the believers as per 2 Peter 2:3 - there is nothing to say they are believers

I was trying to show that 1 John 2:19 could easily be believers who didn't adhere to sound doctrine, as I showed from Acts 15 and the "believers of the Pharisee party". Then I quoted other passages that also indicated believers who weren't 'rightly dividing the word".

Romans 16:17-20 - Avoid Divisive Persons

17 Now I urge you, brethren, note those (Ac 15:1 - 1 Co 5:9) avoid them. 18 For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but (Php 3:19) their own belly, and (Col 2:4 - 2 Pe 2:3) by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple. 19 For (Ro 1:8) your obedience has become known to all. Therefore I am glad on your behalf; but I want you to be (Je 4:22 - Mt 10:16 - 1 Co 14:20) wise in what is good, and simple concerning evil. 20 And (Ro 15:33) the God of peace (Ge 3:15) will crush Satan under your feet shortly. (1 Co 16:23 - 2 Co 13:14 - Ga 6:18 - Php 4:23 - 1 Th 5:28 - 2 Th 3:18 - Re 22:21) The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

the words of scripture do not label it as false doctrine - it records it as a dispute - some thought circumcision must be forced on new converts and this dispute was settled with the words of Acts 15:18-21 - we might consider it a false doctrine but imo we need to stick with what scripture labels it - otherwise our disputes here will end up with us calling each others purveyors of false doctrines
why does this have to mean believers? - could it not mean 2 Peter 2:3 type of people? - sure they may look like believers - that is why Jesus and paul called certain people hypocrites and pretenders - they were pretending to be something they were not - Acts 20:29-30 makes it appear to me that there are unscrupulous people coming in from the outside like wolves and likewise from within - this does not appear at all to me to be simple believers with false doctrines - this appears to me to be people with secret ulterior motives wanting to serve themselves at the expense of the unaware believers
true - it is very sad - when i look 1 verse later at 1 Tim 1:20 it says these people have blasphemed the Holy Spirit - that does not sound like believers to me - blasphemers are considered something beyond or different than a believer - i think we are getting into deceiver territory - pretenders and hypocrites who want to appear as believers with the intent to take advantage of unaware believers
why does this have to be believers? - 2 verses later 2 Timothy 4:5 mentions evangelism - this sounds like paul is telling timothy when he does the work of evangelism do not be surprised that people will reject the gospel in favor of teachings that tickle their ears rather than sound doctrines - is this not the usual case with those who reject the gospel rather than believers? - those that hear and accept the gospel are denying self and taking Jesus - those who reject the gospel most often do so because they don't like the sound of repent and turn to God - specifically Jesus said they love to sin and won't come into the light - John 3:20-21

I didn't say any verse "had to mean believers". I believe the verses I quoted could apply to believers.

Since Acta 15:5 specifically refers to "believers of the Pharisee party", it seems clear to me that these Jews had believed in Christ, but were carrying their previous religion into Christianity; circumcision. Today, we find believers who insist one must be water baptized in order to be saved. I see a clear parallel here.

It makes sense to me that believers who hold to unorthodox doctrines, such as circumcision or water baptism for salvation, would not want to stay in a church where everyone else didn't accept such a view. iow, such believers didn't "belong" to the rest of the believers, in that they adhered to unbiblical doctrines, and left the church, maybe to form another church or denomination.

The verses I quoted would support the idea that 1 John 2:19 could be referring to believers who held to unbiblical doctrines.

Another example.

Joe believes that Christ died for everyone in humanity.
Andy believes that Christ died only for those who will believe.

Obviously, they are in disagreement and one view must be unbiblical. Both can't be true.

 

[Truthfrees]

You're very welcome!


I was trying to show that 1 John 2:19 could easily be believers who didn't adhere to sound doctrine, as I showed from Acts 15 and the "believers of the Pharisee party". Then I quoted other passages that also indicated believers who weren't 'rightly dividing the word".


I didn't say any verse "had to mean believers". I believe the verses I quoted could apply to believers.

Since Acta 15:5 specifically refers to "believers of the Pharisee party", it seems clear to me that these Jews had believed in Christ, but were carrying their previous religion into Christianity; circumcision. Today, we find believers who insist one must be water baptized in order to be saved. I see a clear parallel here.

It makes sense to me that believers who hold to unorthodox doctrines, such as circumcision or water baptism for salvation, would not want to stay in a church where everyone else didn't accept such a view. iow, such believers didn't "belong" to the rest of the believers, in that they adhered to unbiblical doctrines, and left the church, maybe to form another church or denomination.

The verses I quoted would support the idea that 1 John 2:19 could be referring to believers who held to unbiblical doctrines.

Another example.

Joe believes that Christ died for everyone in humanity.
Andy believes that Christ died only for those who will believe.

Obviously, they are in disagreement and one view must be unbiblical. Both can't be true.

true that when there are disagreements someone is wrong - possibly both - it takes a lot of focus on God to make sure we get right what God means - and even still our previous indoctrination can cause us to misread/misunderstand God's word

 

[JLB]

as long as"......?? Where is that found in Scripture?

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:6

Abide, remain connected to, continue to be,
As long as we remain in Him.


All words or phrases that correspond to abide.


If we continue to remain connected in Him, we remain connected to the eternal life found only in Him.



JLB

 

[stovebolts]

....

Hi FreeGrace,
I am going to make this very simple for you to understand.
First, your posts are in disagreement with our new statement of faith. If you have not read it, I would urge you to do so.
Secondly, your tone does not lend to our community message. I would also urge you to read that.
Finally, it would be a great idea for you to read our staff expectations just so your not surprised of any future exchanges between you and I.

I would ask that you respect our views and if you feel the desire to argue you point of view, I would kindly ask you to find another online community where that type of debate is permissible.

Thank you in advance for both respecting and adhering to my request.

JohnDB , Truthfrees