Bible Study The hijacking of the Faith

[JohnD]

Forward

I have spoken of this obliquely in the past. But the affect of it hinders the Church to this very day.

First of all this is not about Catholic bashing. It is not about judging Catholics (or anyone else) as going-to-hell-no-exceptions. As I post I will essentially leave no one out and no stone unturned. So neither am I singling out anyone or any denomination.

Secondly, this is with the understanding that God is almighty and sovereign. He could at any moment impose his absolute will upon us all... of course that would (most likely) mean the destruction of us all... so to achieve the goals of saving for himself a remnant, there must needs be a lot that does not go God's way along the way to achieving that goal. History is replete with angelic and human defiance of God, which should not be possible if God's sovereign will were defined as strictly as some define it (and who do not consider the aforementioned consequences). All one has to do is read 1 Samuel chapter 8 to see God does in fact make concessions.

 

[JohnD]

The sermon on the mount was in essence Jesus' State of the Union Address. Or more accurately the State of the Kingdom Address. In it he also gave divine commentary on the Law (the Word of God) answering and refuting the commentaries of mere mortal men. This was to put the Law of Moses back on track:

1. convicting / condemning man for sin
2. spelling out the requirements for righteousness
3. revealing the futility of man trying to keep the Law
4. revealing the futility of man achieving or regaining righteousness
5. revealing that another method must be sought for righteousness

 

[JohnD]

In another State of the Kingdom Address (Matthew 13) Jesus spoke in parabolic terms that the kingdom of God had already been infiltrated.

Matthew 13:33 (NIV84)
33He told them still another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like yeast that a woman took and mixed into a large amount of flour until it worked all through the dough.”

Yeast (leaven) in Jewish theology was not a good thing. It was representative of sin / paganism / idolatry that worms its way into what God created to be good / perfect... adulterating it.

In Exodus 18, for example, on the heels of a great and prophetic victory (Exodus 17), Moses took the advice of his father-in-law in structuring the governing body over Israel through delegation. Good advice, right? Made sense to Moses. Makes sense to us.

Proverbs 14:12 / Proverbs 16:25 (NIV84)
There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death.

So what was wrong about Moses taking Jethro's advice?

1. Moses did not so much as consult the LORD
2. Jethro was the High Priest of Midian (Gentile / Pagan people)

This same body of judges is who the Sanhedrin is ultimately traced to its origins (through the 70 elders in Numbers 11 back to the courts ie. "beit din" and is mentioned in the Babylonian Talmud Sanhedrin 16b as such) the same Sanhedrin that condemned Jesus to death and turned him over to the Romans to do their bidding.

 

[JohnD]

There were other mixings of yeast into the lump, the monarchy, the temple, etc. This is not to defame Judaism or even to include it among the faith groups being picked on by this thread. Only to show that God has had to deal with apostate / heretical remnants in the past... to show how he has dealt with such in the Church the Body Christian since then.

 

[JohnD]

Emperor Constantine. Christian some say. Pagan to his death others say. Some say he was the liberator of Christianity from the underground state it was forced into (first by the Jews then by the Romans). Some say he was the hijacker of Christianity paving the way for a religious Roman Empire that the secular Roman Empire morphed into before its empty shell fell.

 

[reba]

Christ is the head of His Church. I say He knows what He is doing...

 

[Chopper]

Thank you JohnD for starting this thread. I hope to learn some hidden truths of Israel's rebellion so that I could come into the Commonwealth of Israel. May our LORD give you much wisdom in your instructions for this thirsty heart.

 

[reba]

In another State of the Kingdom Address (Matthew 13) Jesus spoke in parabolic terms that the kingdom of God had already been infiltrated.

Matthew 13:33 (NIV84)
33He told them still another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like yeast that a woman took and mixed into a large amount of flour until it worked all through the dough.”

Yeast (leaven) in Jewish theology was not a good thing. It was representative of sin / paganism / idolatry that worms its way into what God created to be good / perfect... adulterating it.

In Exodus 18, for example, on the heels of a great and prophetic victory (Exodus 17), Moses took the advice of his father-in-law in structuring the governing body over Israel through delegation. Good advice, right? Made sense to Moses. Makes sense to us.

Proverbs 14:12 / Proverbs 16:25 (NIV84)
There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death.

So what was wrong about Moses taking Jethro's advice?

1. Moses did not so much as consult the LORD
2. Jethro was the High Priest of Midian (Gentile / Pagan people)

This same body of judges is who the Sanhedrin is ultimately traced to its origins (through the 70 elders in Numbers 11 back to the courts ie. "beit din" and is mentioned in the Babylonian Talmud Sanhedrin 16b as such) the same Sanhedrin that condemned Jesus to death and turned him over to the Romans to do their bidding.

Wow do i disagree...
You see the example of the leaven as a negative.. I say the example of the leaven show His Kingdom to be growing and growing.. Starting from a 'mustard seed' if you will.. I do not for the live of me understand why Christians want to believe His Kingdom to be weak, failing... He is the KING of kings.. He is God God does not goof up He does not fail... When these Scripture were written there was just a handful of Christians today there are millions...
God is not nor has He ever been out dont by satan.. The Cross of Jesus was from the beginning...
Rev_13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

[Malachi]

Wow do i disagree...
You see the example of the leaven as a negative..

Leaven is consistently a metaphor for sin and evil in the Bible. Hence "Beware the leaven of the Pharisees.." The parable of the leaven indicates that false doctrine will enter into Christendom and grow and grow until Christianity goes into the great Apostasy before the Antichrist is revealed.

If we want to know the meaning of leaven, one of the best passages is in 1 Cor 5:6-9, which deals with the sin of fornication within the church and how detrimental it is (the entire chapter should be read for context):
6Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
7Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
8Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:...

As to the OP no one can "hijack" Christianity per se, since God is sovereign over His Church, and always maintains a faithful remnant. At the same time we should always be cognizant that it is constantly under attack, both from within and from without. Christianity was corrupted almost since its inception, and the apostles were constantly battling the enemies of the truth. Today we live in the great Apostasy which was prophesied for the last days.

 

[reba]

Leaven is consistently a metaphor for sin and evil in the Bible. Hence "Beware the leaven of the Pharisees.." The parable of the leaven indicates that false doctrine will enter into Christendom and grow and grow until Christianity goes into the great Apostasy before the Antichrist is revealed.

If we want to know the meaning of leaven, one of the best passages is in 1 Cor 5:6-9, which deals with the sin of fornication within the church and how detrimental it is (the entire chapter should be read for context):
6Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
7Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
8Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:...

As to the OP no one can "hijack" Christianity per se, since God is sovereign over His Church, and always maintains a faithful remnant. At the same time we should always be cognizant that it is constantly under attack, both from within and from without. Christianity was corrupted almost since its inception, and the apostles were constantly battling the enemies of the truth. Today we live in the great Apostasy which was prophesied for the last days.

Yes Malachi exactly the New Leaven Christ Jesus ... the true Bread from Heaven..

 

[Malachi]

Yes Malachi exactly the New Leaven Christ Jesus ... the true Bread from Heaven..

Reba, There's a huge difference between MANNA (angels' food) and LEAVEN (the fermentation of yeast).

There is no leaven in Christ (our Passover), that is why during the feasts of Passover and Unleavened Bread, the Jews were to purge out the old leaven. Now Christians are admonished to purge out the old leaven of malice and wickedness. It is always about sin and evil.

 

[About the Son of God]

A little concordance for the word Leavened (in Greek ζυμα) , ( The Hebrew uses different word roots for leavened, unleavened, and leavened bread -- so, I am sticking with the Greek which is simpler; but if you know Hebrew, cross checking the following verses and adding any other verses that the Hebrew has and Greek doesn't, would be appreciated.)

I Count 99 instances of the Greek word stem -zym- (Leaven), so this list of bible verses is going to be a fairly representative of how the word is meant in the new testament / Christianity. ( Note, leaven can be used on meat, and in wine, too. )

Leavened: (zyma) is used in these bible verses, in the Greek:
Exodus 12:15, Exodus 12:19, Exodus 12:20, Exodus 12:34, Exodus 12:39, Exodus 13:3, Exodus 13:7 , Exodus 23:18, Exodus 34:25, Leviticus 2:11, Leviticus 6:17* (LXX 6:10), Leviticus 7:13, Leviticus 8:2, Leviticus 23:6, Leviticus 23:17, Deuteronomy 16:3, Deuteronomy 16:4, Hosea 7:4, Matthew 13:33, Matthew 16:6, Matthew 16:11, Matthew 16:12, Mark 8:15, Luke 12:1, Luke 13:21, 1Corinthians 5:6, 1Corinthians 5:8, Galatians 5:9

Unleavened: a-zyma is used in these bible verses, in the Greek:
Genesis 19:3, Exodus 12:8, Exodus 12:15, Exodus 12:18, Exodus 12:20, Exodus 12:39, Exodus 13:6, Exodus 13:7, Exodus 23:15, Exodus 29:2, Exodus 29:23, Exodus 34:18, Leviticus 2:4, Leviticus 2:5, Leviticus 6:16* (LXX 6:9), Leviticus 7:12, Leviticus 8:26, Leviticus 10:12, Numbers 6:15, Numbers 6:17, Numbers 6:19, Numbers 9:11, Numbers 28:17, Deuteronomy 16:3, Deuteronomy 16:8, Deuteronomy 16:16, Joshua 5:11, Judges 6:19, Judges 6:20, Judges 6:21, 1Samuel 28:24, 2Kings 23:9, 1Chronicles 23:29, 2Chronicles 8:13, 2Chronicles 30:13, 2Chronicles 30:21, 2Chronicles 30:22, 2Chronicles 35:17, Ezra 6:22*, Nehemiah 1:11*, Nehemiah 1:17*, Nehemiah 7:14*, Ezekiel 45:21, Matthew 26:17, Mark 14:1, Mark 14:12, Luke 22:1, Luke 22:7, Acts 12:3, Acts 20:6, 1Corinthians 5:6, 1Corinthians 5:8

*Greek verse numbering is not always the same in the Hebrew KJV, so these verses may not show up in the KJV in the same place / where the Hebrew differs from the Greek.

 

[reba]

Reba, There's a huge difference between MANNA (angels' food) and LEAVEN (the fermentation of yeast).

There is no leaven in Christ (our Passover), that is why during the feasts of Passover and Unleavened Bread, the Jews were to purge out the old leaven. Now Christians are admonished to purge out the old leaven of malice and wickedness. It is always about sin and evil.

Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
Odd this is left out this time that ye may be a new lump,

IT is ok to think differently and we sure do

 

[About the Son of God]

That's just like an exceptional woman, Reba, sneaking things in: Matthew 13:33...
It's the exception that makes the rule, does it not ?
But, just to be conciliatory -- we could not make SOURDOUGH bread this way, for that by definition requires and 'older' leaven.

Good Men are more into swareing and 7vening up, daily, than leavening....
We must, ahhh, Leave it to the women to open a concession stand.

 

[reba]

I hope i can get a 'starter' growing when we get moved... but that is off topic..

 

[JohnD]

So, God is sneaky?

And I must say, Reba, you've done an extraordinary job of derailing this thread on a minor point.

 

[JohnD]

Not all mentions of leaven were being summed up in this one place. However, Malachi did make a good point. And there is IMHO only one type of leaven that is ever pitched as good... leaven in grape juice producing wine. This was IMHO prophetic of the inclusion of Gentiles into the spiritual (symbolized by wine / oil / living water...

And I hope no one goes off into a rabbit trail form of argumentation over these details.

 

[JohnD]

Think it's time to cool it around here for a while.

 

[About the Son of God]

John, I still think you are fine theologically, and biblically.

All I said is that the woman was sneaky. Eg: The kingdom of God is often understood as the bride (woman) that Jesus (the king of the kingdom) marries. She (the kingdom) is sometimes observed 'sneaking' things in. Note, it was Reba who said she hoped she could get a starter culture going? That's a classic cooking woman for you; So, trust me... I wasn't accusing God of being sneaky in that post; although, he certainly can outsmart us when he wants to....

So, when you've settled down a bit -- go ahead and move forward more on the points you'd like to make.
It's quite enjoyable so far. A lump unleavened or leavened can be. That, I understand perfectly.

 

[Sinthesis]

Leaven is not of itself negative. It is used biblically to symbolize religious doctrine. When the Israelites left Egypt they were instructed to rid themselves of the doctrine of the Egyptians, so that God could replace it with new doctrine. If literal leaven was the problem then it would always be avoided, instead of just once a year during the feast of unleavened bread as remembrance of their deliverance.

Mat 16:11 - How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?
Mat 16:12 - Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.​

The Baptism of John (repentance) prepares one for Jesus' Baptism of the Holy Spirit, which illuminates Christianity's new spiritual doctrine as the perfection of the old legalistic doctrine. From the Resurrection until now, Jesus' doctrine has been working and growing itself within and throughout the humanity which comprises His Kingdom.