has nothing to do with it it was all God
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The Value of Evangelism in Reformed Theology
- Thread starter TibiasDad
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jasonc
Member
(response to words in bold):
Yes, we hinder God's will frequently by sinning against Him. I don't mean adultery, stealing, and such, but by our acts of impatience toward others, letting stress and anger win over love, failing to appeal to God's grace to rule us, lack of faith that God is with us, and such as that. Yet, God will certainly win out over our hindrance, because He is the Sovereign One. He knows how to deal with us, whether by blessing or chastisement, because He causes all things to work for our good. So, concerning what He has decreed for His own purpose, there is ultimately no hindrance strong enough to thwart it. This means that someone who resists the Spirit will lose that fight, if God wills them to be saved. When He shows up, the fear of judgment is too great to bear, and surrender is at hand. The fact that a person recognizes God's ultimate authority, and the hope that is in Christ, motivates their repentance - such is the sign that God is at work in that person's heart. Ultimately God wins, as he did over the apostle Paul, regardless how much we hinder the Spirit's work.
TD
The gospel is not for everyone (obviously), but it is for anyone. If a person feels the weight of God's wrath over him, then only the gift of faith in Christ will make Him seek the solution. Most of the world either has no faith or doesn't care about their own eternal welfare. So, when people hear John 3:16 quoted, only the elect will be interested in obeying Christ, but everyone else will reject it as foolishness, and we see this happening all the time.
TD
Make plans?
Out think or deny God’s will?
I certainly didn’t say this.
I simply stated God works through us; through our obedience.
Do you agree or not?
JLB
Sounds like double speak.
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16
Whoever refers to anyone and everyone who believes.
What “believe” means is another discussion altogether.
JLB
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The gospel is not for everyone (obviously), but it is for anyone. If a person feels the weight of God's wrath over him, then only the gift of faith in Christ will make Him seek the solution. Most of the world either has no faith or doesn't care about their own eternal welfare. So, when people hear John 3:16 quoted, only the elect will be interested in obeying Christ, but everyone else will reject it as foolishness, and we see this happening all the time.
TD
Sounds like Calvinism 3:16 to me.
For God so loved the
Calvinism 3:16
The very definition of “another Gospel“.
JLB
jasonc
Member
yet you balk at what the reformed teach ,strange .
I,used to be,bothered by reformed teaching but the more I,listened to them as when reach fm broadcasted teaching they were in the majority ,with Calvary chapel churches pastors in the mix .I found those two groups saying the same stuff.
you just agreed to what the reformed say .God uses those willing to save those He reaches out to .instead of arguing that the reformed are wrong ,just do see that they do teach one is commanded to be baptized,to make disciples and to preach the gospel .they don't say other wise,if they did ,they wouldn't reach the lost at all .those are called the primitive Baptist churches ,of those as old as they are,pre azure street revival ,these do exist and some churches are closed and some open and mostly are in old 1800 or early 1900 buildings.i saw one in pavo ,ga last week ,its pre civil war and now a meeting place and community center.
jasonc
Member
pastor raborn and pastor rainwater ,both reformed and learned at john Knox theological seminary .
pastor raborn often quotes the bible on God's desire to show mercy and taking no joy in death and judgement of the lost .if you think that the reformed are the frozen chosen etc take heed . yes these types exist in the arp.any church has the fringe element
I really don’t know what “the reformed” teach, only what each person teaches, one post at a time.
I have seen different teachings over the years from different people who say they are reformed.
JLB
I don’t argue that the reformed are wrong. I just take things post by post, and discuss what people say .
TibiasDad
Member
The gospel is not for everyone (obviously), but it is for anyone. If a person feels the weight of God's wrath over him, then only the gift of faith in Christ will make Him seek the solution. Most of the world either has no faith or doesn't care about their own eternal welfare. So, when people hear John 3:16 quoted, only the elect will be interested in obeying Christ, but everyone else will reject it as foolishness, and we see this happening all the time.
TD
"The gospel is not for everyone (obviously), but it is for anyone."
At first glance, I thought the same thing as JLB, that this was a redundancy, and in some ways it still is. This said, however, I think I do see a legitimate difference, but there are still a lot of unspoken assumptions that must be understood to have it make sense.
This is what I hear you saying: The first clause, must be taken from the human/sinner's perspective, as if saying, "caviar is not for everyone", meaning not everyone will find caviar appealing or desirable. The second clause, comes from God's perspective and reflects his his intent. This alone differentiates the meaning everyone and anyone. Otherwise, the terms are interchangeable.
This understanding, however, is not a Reformed view, but a non-Reformed/Arminian perspective. If you mean something other than this, then I don't see how they, everyone and anyone, can be different in meaning. If this is what you are saying, it is not consistent with Calvinistic thought, in my humble opinion.
Doug
Since the context is God loved the world, then it certainly means anyone in the world.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. John 3:14-17
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. John 3:14-17
Many are invited but few are chosen.
Gods will and intent was to lead the Israelites out of Egypt into a land of milk and honey. Because of unbelief and disobedience a great many of them died in the desert. That was not Gods original intent and was the result of their unbelief and disobedience. Israel was Gods chosen people, even so, those who sinned died.
Just as the original covenant had blessings and curses so does the Gospel message for the wrath of God has been made known in that message as with light comes accountability. (justice to the nations)
God makes a distinction between the righteous and unrighteous just as He did with the Israelites.
Hebrews-"As has just been said: "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion."
Those who listen and learn from the Father go to the Son. And those who believe in the Son to those that accepted Him have been given the right to be called the children of God.
the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.
There is a distinction shown by God
God works for the good of those who love Him.
As for myself I was blessed with a Christian mother who steered me to Jesus from my beginning. And as I got older ,still very young, I began praying to Jesus who I loved and believed in with all my heart. Jesus responded to my faith.
So I state as far back as my memory goes I have loved and believed in Him. I do NOT believe I was prechosen.
I do believe there are exceptions God has made for His own purposes.
Jacob He loved.
Abraham.
The 7000 who God reserved for Himself so His promises might not fail.
Jeremiah the prophet.
Paul set aside from birth.
Everyone means every person who ever lived and ever will live. And since we know that the Bible clearly teaches that not everyone is saved, the gospel is not for everyone. 1 Cor. 2:14
Anyone means God does not limit salvation to ethnic groups or nationalities or any other natural category. Anyone whom God wishes to sanctify and grant faith and repentance will end up as the elect of God. Rev. 5:9
TD
Everyone means every person who ever lived and ever will live. And since we know that the Bible clearly teaches that not everyone is saved, the gospel is not for everyone. 1 Cor. 2:14
Anyone means God does not limit salvation to ethnic groups or nationalities or any other natural category. Anyone whom God wishes to sanctify and grant faith and repentance will end up as the elect of God. Rev. 5:9
TD
1 Cor. 2:14
TD
But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. For “who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ. 1 Corinthians 2:10-16
This verse is referring to Born Again Christians, who have the Spirit of God verses the “the natural man”, people who do not have the Spirit.
This has absolutely nothing to do with our discussion of John 3:16 and those to whom the gospel has been made available, which is “whosoever believes”.
You stated that only the elect will be interested in obeying Christ concerning the Gospel.
Here is your statement —
“So, when people hear John 3:16 quoted, only the elect will be interested in obeying Christ,”
I asked you to give chapter and verse that validates your statement of... “So, when people hear John 3:16 quoted, only the elect will be interested in obeying Christ,”
1 Corinthians 2:14 certainly does not say this, nor is it about who will or will not respond to the Gospel, or who the Gospel is for.
- But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians 2:14
Sorry but John 3:16 plainly says God loves the world, not just the elect, and whosoever believes refers to anyone and or everyone who believes in Him, should not perish, but have everlasting life.
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16
The Gospel is for the world of unsaved people.
JLB