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What does it mean to perish (apóllymi)?

wondering

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Thus the need for a Savior (a gatherer of lost sheep) so that their post-judgment punishment for their being in a sinful lost (ἀπόλλυμι apollymi) state now (in it's participle form) does not result in the completion of the path they are on (i.e. to it's noun form (destruction) when there's no one to gather them.

Is it your position that sinful hedonistic atheists get to live eternally in Hell in the same condition (lost) that they live in now?


Umm, I posted the meaning based on published work of Koine Greek scholars. You've misunderstood the difference between the verb and participle forms and it's noun form.


To study the meaning of destruction of the wicked in Hell.

You make a good point about the scope of the word's meaning. And the use of the Scriptures that translated the word as "lost" on this Earth is significant and per the rules of debate. I'm surprised nobody else has mentioned them until now.

But my question to you above is serious. And I have one more; why do no translations pick "lost" for the English translation of the final fate of the wicked in Hell? (Such as in Matt 10:28) If they are 'lost' now and 'lost' in Hell, wouldn't they be living the same lifestyle there as here? And doing so while enjoying their eternal lifestyle?
I've stated my beliefs and am not willing to argue this.
However, what do you mean by the above in blue?

Do you believe there's a different place for atheists and the "lost"?
Who are the "lost" then?

Do you believe the life of atheists and the loss just goes on?

And one last question:

If one just becomes annihilated, why would Jesus goes through so much just to make us understand why it's so important to get to heaven?
Does the fact that hell is eternals have anything to do with the answer, perhaps?

Some might even feel that if they could do WHATEVER THEY WANTED TO, and then just be annihilated at Death, it wouldn't seem like such a bad deal ![/QUOTE]

P.S. To clarify:

Do you believe there's one place for atheists
and a different place for the lost?
I might have just misunderstood you.
 
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wondering

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It also means, "to be lost."
There are many meanings to individual words. There is not a mathematical identity between any given Koine Greek word (other than numbers) and a precisely corresponding modern English word.
Mat 10:6 “But go rather to the lost (ἀπόλλυμι apollymi) sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 15:24 But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost (ἀπόλλυμι apollymi) sheep of the house of Israel.”
Mat 18:11 “For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost." (ἀπόλλυμι apollymi)
Luk 15:9 “And when she has found it, she calls her friends and neighbors together, saying, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found the piece which I lost!' (ἀπόλλυμι apollymi)
Jhn 6:12 So when they were filled, He said to His disciples, “Gather up the fragments that remain, so that nothing is lost.” (ἀπόλλυμι apollymi)
You have based your entire argument on a misunderstanding of Koine Greek thus rendering your argument a house of cards. It fails to stand even a slight breeze of scrutiny. :shrug

Also, I get the impression that you are promoting the doctrine of the annihilation of the wicked dead which is one of the heretical teachings of the 7th Day Adventist Church and their spin-off heretical sect, the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Was that your intention? :confused

iakov the meshuganeh
The SDA are not the only ones who believe this.
Do you think that belief in this would make one become lost?
I don't think so.
Once could believe an incorrect doctrine but still be saved.
 

chessman

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Do you believe there's a different place for atheists and the "lost"?
No.

Who are the "lost" then?
It depends on the Scripture from which the word comes. In Matt 10:6, for example, Jesus refers to His sheep from within the House of Israel. You'd need to have Israel's bloodline in you to qualify here. Oh, and be one of Jesus's sheep, not a goat. Thus Jesus goes and finds them using His disciples in the process. And they did just that.

Do you believe the life of atheists and the lost (sic) just goes on?
If they are His sheep, yes. He searches until He finds them.

If they are not His sheep, of course they don't get Eternal life nor have victory over death through Christ. Their path leads to eternal destruction, not eternal life.

If one just becomes annihilated, why would Jesus goes through so much just to make us understand why it's so important to get to heaven?
You'd have to ask someone who thinks the wicked accursed "just becomes annihilated' this question.

Does the fact that hell is eternals have anything to do with the answer, perhaps?
I'm sure it's Eternal for good (God) reasons. Namely for the imprisonment of the Devil and his demons.

Some might even feel that if they could do WHATEVER THEY WANTED TO, and then just be annihilated at Death, it wouldn't seem like such a bad deal !
Yes, that's my point about the word's scope of meaning from the verses Jim Parker posted. If they (the wicked/accursed humans) will be in the same state in Hell as they are in now, then where's the punishment?

But again, you'd have to ask someone who thinks they are 'just annihilated' versus me who thinks they suffer a punishment like Sodom's with fire and brimstone for a night then get their bodies and souls destroyed in Hell. Doesn't sound like nothing to me.
 
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wondering

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No.
It depends on the Scripture from which the word comes. In Matt 10:6, for example, Jesus refers to His sheep from within the House of Israel. You'd need to have Israel's bloodline in you to qualify here. Oh, and be one of Jesus's sheep, not a goat. Thus Jesus goes and finds them using His disciples in the process. And they did just that.

If they are His sheep, yes. He searches until He finds them.

If they are not His sheep, of course they don't get Eternal life nor have victory over death through Christ. Their path leads to eternal destruction, not eternal life.

You'd have to ask someone who thinks the wicked accursed "just becomes annihilated' this question.

I'm sure it's Eternal for good (God) reasons. Namely for the imprisonment of the Devil and his demons.

Yes, that's my point about the word's scope of meaning from the verses Jim Parker posted. If they (the wicked/accursed humans) will be in the same state in Hell as they are in now, then where's the punishment?

But again, you'd have to ask someone who thinks they are 'just annihilated' versus me who thinks they suffer a punishment like Sodom's with fire and brimstone for a night then get their bodies and souls destroyed in Hell. Doesn't sound like nothing to me.
Thanks for answering but I don't undersand what you believe any better than I did before.

It's unclear to me whether or not you do believe in annihilation.
You speak like you do, but then ask me to go ask someone who believes in this.

So, I guess I'll be removing myself from this converstion.

Regarding the word lost and Jesus' sheep, I'll only say this:

I think we confuse ourselves when we insist on going to the Greek.
We don't have PhD's in biblical studies (some of us do) and are not theologians.
I have to trust that the bible was translated correctly. I know about how some words cannot be translated, believe me I do.

That does not take away from the fact that we could understand EVERYTHING THAT NEEDS TO BE UNDERSTOOD from our English bibles.

For me it's easy:

You're saved, you go to heaven.
You're lost, you go to hell.
Everyone who is not saved is lost.
Heaven and hell last forever.
 

chessman

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Clearly, according to Paul AND the Apostolic Tradition, not Everyone will be resurrected immortal and incorruptible.
The SDA are not the only ones who believe this.
Correct. It was (is) the belief of people like:
Irenaeus, Ignatius, the author of The Epistle of Barnabas, etc. (see cited portions by following the above back quoted post or read them for yourself by the links below).

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book2.html

CHAPTER I.--REASON OF WRITING THE EPISTLE.
if we endure all the assaults of the prince of this world, and escape them, we shall enjoy God.
...
CHAPTER IX.--LET US LIVE WITH CHRIST.
our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death--whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master--how shall we be able to live apart from Him
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/ignatius-magnesians-roberts.html
We endure by obtaining faith not by denying it. Who can endure (live) apart from Him?

CHAPTER V.--THE NEW COVENANT, FOUNDED ON THE SUFFERINGS OF CHRIST, TENDS TO OUR SALVATION, BUT TO THE JEWS' DESTRUCTION.

This means that the man perishes justly, who, having a knowledge of the way of righteousness, rushes off into the way of darkness

CHAPTER XXI.--CONCLUSION
On this account there will be a resurrection, on this account a retribution. I beseech you who are superiors, if you will receive any counsel of my good-will, have among yourselves those to whom you may show kindness: do not forsake them. For the day is at hand on which all things shall perish with the evil [one].

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/barnabas-roberts.html

it is the Father of all who imparts continuance for ever and ever on those who are saved. For life does not arise from us, nor from our own nature; but it is bestowed according to the grace of God. And therefore he who shall preserve the life bestowed upon him, and give thanks to Him who imparted it, shall receive also length of days for ever and ever. But he who shall reject it, and prove himself ungrateful to his Maker, inasmuch as he has been created, and has not recognised Him who bestowed [the gift upon him], deprives himself of [the privilege of] continuance for ever and ever. And, for this reason, the Lord declared to those who showed themselves ungrateful towards Him: "If ye have not been faithful in that which is little, who will give you that which is great? " indicating that those who, in this brief temporal life, have shown themselves ungrateful to Him who bestowed it, shall justly not receive from Him length of days for ever and ever.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book2.html
 

JohnDB

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Now I know that it's unpopular...
But annihilation does have a logic to it.

God is omnipotent...
Meaning that ALL power is his and created by Him. Your life isn't at God's acquiescence but active support. God is also perfectly efficient. No unintended consequences of use of power. No heat spillover. No accidental induction.

Most of the people on this planet are going to Hell. 5-10% at best are ever going to get to Heaven. The life they have now is the best they will ever have it.

So why would God spend so much energy punishing the wicked when God is good. Hate isn't the opposite of love... indifference is. And the removal of existence sustaining power is the most efficient way to eradicate them. (IE death)

Fear is at best a temporary motivation. Love is a longer lasting motivator.
 

JLB

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Okay. I'd say being created by momma/poppa sheep comes first (versus momma/poppa goat), but I do not disagree with your point about including v26 in the facts for His sheep.
The sheep that became lost, belonged to the Shepherd.

4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
Luke 15:4-7

The sheep being lost, had returned to being a sinner in need of repentance, just as someone who never believed [goat].

  • there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

The one who wandered off in disobedience, and became lost, had returned to being a lost sinner.


Lost = Sinner who is need of repentance; dead to God, in need of salvation, reconciliation to God.
Found = Someone is is reconciled to God; saved.


  • Lost Sheep:
I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:7

  • Lost Coin:
Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Luke 15:10


  • Prodigal Son
It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’” Luke 15:32




JLB
 

JLB

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His sheep:
1. hear His voice (not someone elses)
and
2. He knows them (after all He's speaking to them)
and
3. they follow Him (I'm not teaching a doctrine that says His sheep do not follow Him). Aren't you teaching that some of His sheep stop following Him? Why, if someone truly believed this verse's perfect truth, would anyone think His sheep (that have believed and heard and He knows them) not follow Him is beyond understanding.
And
4. He gives (perfect, active, singular) His sheep Eternal life (not temporary life). And He does so perfectly and all by Himself.
and
5. they shall never perish;
and
6. neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
(I'm of the doctrine that anyone means anyone including themselves and Satan).
Aren't you?
  1. His voice is the only voice that will produce faith in us.
  2. Knowing Him is the definition of eternal life. [joined to Him as a wife is joined to her husband as one]
  3. As long as they do not wander off in disobedience and become lost, they have fulfilled the condition.
  4. Eternal life is in Christ. As long as a person is in Christ, they have the eternal life that is found in Him.
  5. Those who are in Christ, and remain in Christ, will never perish
  6. No one is able to take us away from Him by force. We are secure as we remain in Him though believing faith.


  • Can you post a scripture that says believing/obeying is no longer required after a person becomes born again?


He who obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NASB



JLB
 

JLB

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You have based your entire argument on a misunderstanding of Koine Greek thus rendering your argument a house of cards. It fails to stand even a slight breeze of scrutiny. :shrug
:thumbsup
 

JohnDB

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Moderator Hat On

Please let's stick to the subject at hand and not drift into topics discussed ad nauseum in other prolific threads.
 

chessman

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Thanks for answering but I don't undersand what you believe any better than I did before.
I think they suffer a punishment like Sodom's with fire and brimstone for a night then get their bodies and souls destroyed in Hell.
Is this not clear?

I get this understanding from all over the Bible (and from the Early Church Fathers).

For one Biblical example:

Romans 2:5, 9 But because of your [those who deny the Gospel, v4] stubbornness and unrepentant heart, you are storing up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and of the revelation of the righteous judgment of God, ... There will be affliction and distress for every human being who does evil, of the Jew first and of the Greek,

Anybody who thinks those who deny the Gospel do not receive the stored up wrath of God (exampled by Sodom's destruction) is just not reading clearly.

Aha!
But I lose all the rest....

Right??
No. Everytime you highlight a partial quote from a post (even in other threads) it is "stored up" for you. When you enter the reply editor you can click "insert quotes" (which only appears if you have stored up some) and they all appear.

I believe those people's (those not clothed in Christ that is) unforgiven hardening of their heart and stubborness toward the Gospel get's wrath in proportion to their cache of such hardness/stubbornness. (Another good reason infants and pre-born deaths don't experience wrath). But that's what makes their destruction Just.
 

chessman

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The sheep being lost, had returned to being a sinner in need of repentance, just as someone who never believed [goat].
Okay I do not disagree. And to relate it to my understanding of apollumi in all its forms and grammatical usages such ad posted in the OP (and supported by NT Greek scholars and the early Greek speaking church fathers) and to Jim Parker 's valid and OP related counter-point of the word's spectrum of use in this particular passage (Luke 15:4-7), I have a simple question for you:

From Jesus' teaching here, for how long does He "go after" one of His lost sheep?
A. Until He find it
B. Until He gives up trying
C. Until the cows come home
D. Some other non-Biblical time frame not found in this passage.

[simple question with a simple answer. Hopefully you will not leave your unrelated to this OP's position weak and unanswered]

Here's my answer:

A. "Until He finds it"

BTW, you didn't answer either of my questions posed to you in the post you quoted:
 

JLB

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Okay I do not disagree. And to relate it to my understanding of apollumi in all its forms and grammatical usages such ad posted in the OP (and supported by NT Greek scholars and the early Greek speaking church fathers) and to Jim Parker 's valid and OP related counter-point of the word's spectrum of use in this particular passage (Luke 15:4-7), I have a simple question for you:

Ok great, then you understand why a person who is one of His sheep, then becomes lost, is counted as a someone who is not in a saved condition anymore, and have become likened to a goat, someone who was saved, and has now become lost.


Awesome, we are making progress. :thumbsup


JLB
 

JLB

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From Jesus' teaching here, for how long does He "go after" one of His lost sheep?
A. Until He find it
It depends on how far you read what Jesus taught.

11 Then He said: “A certain man had two sons. 12 And the younger of them said to his father, ‘Father, give me the portion of goods that falls to me.’ So he divided to them his livelihood. 13 And not many days after, the younger son gathered all together, journeyed to a far country, and there wasted his possessions with prodigal living. 14 But when he had spent all, there arose a severe famine in that land, and he began to be in want. 15 Then he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country, and he sent him into his fields to feed swine. 16 And he would gladly have filled his stomach with the pods that the swine ate, and no one gave him anything.

17 “But when he came to himself, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger! 18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you, 19 and I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Make me like one of your hired servants.”’

20 “And he arose and came to his father. But when he was still a great way off, his father saw him and had compassion, and ran and fell on his neck and kissed him. 21 And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight, and am no longer worthy to be called your son.’

22 “But the father said to his servants, ‘Bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet. 23 And bring the fatted calf here and kill it, and let us eat and be merry; 24 for this my son was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ And they began to be merry.

25 “Now his older son was in the field. And as he came and drew near to the house, he heard music and dancing. 26 So he called one of the servants and asked what these things meant. 27 And he said to him, ‘Your brother has come, and because he has received him safe and sound, your father has killed the fatted calf.’

28 “But he was angry and would not go in. Therefore his father came out and pleaded with him. 29 So he answered and said to his father, ‘Lo, these many years I have been serving you; I never transgressed your commandment at any time; and yet you never gave me a young goat, that I might make merry with my friends. 30 But as soon as this son of yours came, who has devoured your livelihood with harlots, you killed the fatted calf for him.’

31 “And he said to him, ‘Son, you are always with me, and all that I have is yours. 32 It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’” Luke 15:11-32


The son who wandered off, became lost. A sinner who is dead to God and must repent, to be reconciled back to God.


Jesus did not go after him.

He had to return in order to be found.

Lost = Sinner who is need of repentance; dead to God, in need of salvation, reconciliation to God.
Found = Someone is is reconciled to God; saved.



JLB
 

chessman

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I asked⬇
Aren't you teaching that some of His sheep stop following Him?
Not only did you not answer any of my questions, you raise new ones:

Ok great, then you understand why a person who is one of His sheep, then becomes lost, is counted as a someone who is not in a saved condition anymore, and have become likened to a goat, someone who was saved, and has now become lost.
So your understanding is that Jesus searches until He finds:
A. a goat
or
B. one of His sheep?

My answer is that He finds B, (one of His sheep).
And He puts it (His sheep, not a goat) on His back for safe return.

Luke 15:4-6 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep and losing one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the grassland and go after the one [sheep] that was lost until he finds it [the one lost sheep, not a goat]? And when he has found it [the one lost sheep, not a goat], he places it [the one lost sheep, not a goat] on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he returns to his home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, because I have found my sheep that was lost!’​

Was the lost son still one of the Man's sons, yes or no?

And was the older son angry at the fact that the younger son returned to a Father who still considered him a son?

Are you angry at any particular lost sheep or sons?
 

JLB

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If they are His sheep, yes. He searches until He finds them.
Not so, if you keep reading.

11 Then He said: “A certain man had two sons. 12 And the younger of them said to his father, ‘Father, give me the portion of goods that falls to me.’ So he divided to them his livelihood. 13 And not many days after, the younger son gathered all together, journeyed to a far country, and there wasted his possessions with prodigal living. 14 But when he had spent all, there arose a severe famine in that land, and he began to be in want. 15 Then he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country, and he sent him into his fields to feed swine. 16 And he would gladly have filled his stomach with the pods that the swine ate, and no one gave him anything.

17 “But when he came to himself, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger! 18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you, 19 and I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Make me like one of your hired servants.”’

20 “And he arose and came to his father. But when he was still a great way off, his father saw him and had compassion, and ran and fell on his neck and kissed him. 21 And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight, and am no longer worthy to be called your son.’

22 “But the father said to his servants, ‘Bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet. 23 And bring the fatted calf here and kill it, and let us eat and be merry; 24 for this my son was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ And they began to be merry.

25 “Now his older son was in the field. And as he came and drew near to the house, he heard music and dancing. 26 So he called one of the servants and asked what these things meant. 27 And he said to him, ‘Your brother has come, and because he has received him safe and sound, your father has killed the fatted calf.’

28 “But he was angry and would not go in. Therefore his father came out and pleaded with him. 29 So he answered and said to hisfather, ‘Lo, these many years I have been serving you; I never transgressed your commandment at any time; and yet you never gave me a young goat, that I might make merry with my friends. 30 But as soon as this son of yours came, who has devoured your livelihood with harlots, you killed the fatted calf for him.’

31 “And he said to him, ‘Son, you are always with me, and all that I have is yours. 32 It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’” Luke 15:11-32


The son who wandered off, became lost. A sinner who is dead to God and must repent, to be reconciled back to God.


Jesus did not go after him.

He had to return in order to be found.

Lost = Sinner who is need of repentance; dead to God, in need of salvation, reconciliation to God.
Found = Someone is is reconciled to God; saved.



JLB
 

JLB

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I asked⬇

Aren't you teaching that some of His sheep stop following Him?

Not only did you not answer any of my questions, you raise new ones:
My answer plainly addresses the question of Sheep no longer following Him, because they wander off in disobedience to His voice to follow Him.

  • Wandering off and becoming lost is the result of not following Him.

The sheep that became lost, belonged to the Shepherd.

4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
Luke 15:4-7

The sheep being lost, had returned to being a sinner in need of repentance, just as someone who never believed [goat].

  • there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

The one who wandered off in disobedience, and became lost, had returned to being a lost sinner.


Lost = Sinner who is need of repentance; dead to God, in need of salvation, reconciliation to God.
Found = Someone is is reconciled to God; saved.


  • Lost Sheep:
I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:7

  • Lost Coin:
Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Luke 15:10


  • Prodigal Son
It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’” Luke 15:32




JLB
 

JLB

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So your understanding is that Jesus searches until He finds:
A. a goat
or
B. one of His sheep?
My understanding is that Jesus doesn't go after all sheep that becomes lost.

  • Like the prodigal son, that was required to turn back to his father, or remain as a sinner; dead to his father.

One reason for this is that a young or baby christian is not expected to obedient on the same level as the more mature.


The prodigal son was older, so much so he was ready for his inheritance, and able to take care of himself out away from his father's care.



JLB
 

JLB

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So your understanding is that Jesus searches until He finds:
A. a goat
or
B. one of His sheep?

My answer is that He finds B, (one of His sheep).
And He puts it (His sheep, not a goat) on His back for safe return.

Luke 15:4-6What man of you, having a hundred sheep and losing one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the grassland and go after the one [sheep] that was lost until he finds it [the one lost sheep, not a goat]? And when he has found it [the one lost sheep, not a goat], he places it [the one lost sheep, not a goat] on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he returns to his home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, because I have found my sheep that was lost!
Actually the word Jesus used which was translated as "sheep", is also used for goats.

Sheep - Strong's G4263 -
probation

any four footed, tame animal accustomed to graze, small cattle (opp. to large cattle, horses, etc.), most commonly a sheep or a goat

  1. a sheep, and so always in the NT
Since there were no goats mentioned in Luke 15, but only sheep, the comparison is clear.

His sheep that wanders off and becomes lost has returned to being a sinner in need of repentance.


Lost = Sinner who is need of repentance; dead to God, in need of salvation, reconciliation to God.
Found = Someone is is reconciled to God; saved.


JLB
 

JLB

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life
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From Jesus' teaching here, for how long does He "go after" one of His lost sheep?
A. Until He find it
B. Until He gives up trying
C. Until the cows come home
D. Some other non-Biblical time frame not found in this passage.

[simple question with a simple answer. Hopefully you will not leave your unrelated to this OP's position weak and unanswered]

Here's my answer:

A. "Until He finds it"

BTW, you didn't answer either of my questions posed to you in the post you quoted:
I have answered all your question, you just reject my answers because you don't like what Jesus taught.

E. None of the above.

Because you must keep reading the whole teaching of Jesus, not just part.

11 Then He said: “A certain man had two sons. 12 And the younger of them said to his father, ‘Father, give me the portion of goods that falls to me.’ So he divided to them his livelihood. 13 And not many days after, the younger son gathered all together, journeyed to a far country, and there wasted his possessions with prodigal living. 14 But when he had spent all, there arose a severe famine in that land, and he began to be in want. 15 Then he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country, and he sent him into his fields to feed swine. 16 And he would gladly have filled his stomach with the pods that the swine ate, and no one gave him anything.

17 “But when he came to himself, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger! 18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you, 19 and I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Make me like one of your hired servants.”’

20 “And he arose and came to his father. But when he was still a great way off, his father saw him and had compassion, and ran and fell on his neck and kissed him. 21 And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight, and am no longer worthy to be called your son.’

22 “But the father said to his servants, ‘Bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet. 23 And bring the fatted calf here and kill it, and let us eat and be merry; 24 for this my son was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ And they began to be merry.

25 “Now his older son was in the field. And as he came and drew near to the house, he heard music and dancing. 26 So he called one of the servants and asked what these things meant. 27 And he said to him, ‘Your brother has come, and because he has received him safe and sound, your father has killed the fatted calf.’

28 “But he was angry and would not go in. Therefore his father came out and pleaded with him. 29 So he answered and said to hisfather, ‘Lo, these many years I have been serving you; I never transgressed your commandment at any time; and yet you never gave me a young goat, that I might make merry with my friends. 30 But as soon as this son of yours came, who has devoured your livelihood with harlots, you killed the fatted calf for him.’

31 “And he said to him, ‘Son, you are always with me, and all that I have is yours. 32 It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’” Luke 15:11-32


The son who wandered off, became lost. A sinner who is dead to God and must repent, to be reconciled back to God.


Jesus did not go after him.

He had to return in order to be found.

Lost = Sinner who is need of repentance; dead to God, in need of salvation, reconciliation to God.
Found = Someone is is reconciled to God; saved.



JLB
 
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