What does it mean to perish (apóllymi)?

[JLB]

Amen! Jesus died to bring salvation to the world of the lost. Not so that people could choose to undo what God's grace did for all time.

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:11-13

In this parable, Jesus teaches the condition for being saved.

• lest they should believe and be saved.

Here Jesus teaches that believers have salvation.

Believe = Saved

He also teaches that a person can indeed choose to no longer believe, in which they will fall away.

• who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

Believe for a while = Saved for a while


Is a person who believes for a while, then no longer believes, still a believer?



JLB

 

[chessman]

Christ Jesus was resurrected in the past.

He was the firstfruits to be resurrected among many brethren.

Yep, that's my point, He was, not will be in the future! Thus He bagan "that age" which will have a "last day" in the future. Poof. That was my point. A point which prohibits your claim about Luke 20:35 from being true. Not that there needed to be any additional proof because, as I pointed out, the literal verb tense of "having been considered-worthy" is itself is NOT future tensed as you claimed but rather past tense. Sorry to be pointing this out to you, but you really have no case here. People that have been given Eternal Life, cannot perish. Sure, their bodies die. But so what, they have Eternal Life.

Luke 20:35 Disciples’ Literal New Testament (DLNT) 35 But the ones having been considered-worthy to attain that age and the resurrection from the dead neither marry, nor are they given-in-marriage.​

It is not a difficult concept to believe. Just believe what He says.

But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, is a statement about the future, as "attain that age" speaks of the age to come, and those who being Judged at that time by the Lord, will have been found to be worthy.

Sorry, but Jesus said they'd already been (having been) considered-worthy. Which is consistent with His saying that the ones "having heard" will live (not might live, but will). And His sheep follow Him (not might follow Him, but will). etc.

John 5:25 Disciples’ Literal New Testament (DLNT)

25 “Truly, truly, I say to you that an hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and the ones having heard will live.​

 

[JLB]

Yep, that's my point, He was, not will be in the future!

It is those who are Christ's that will be resurrected from the dead at His coming.

20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 1 Corinthians 15:20-23

• Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

A point which prohibits your claim about Luke 20:35 from being true. Not that there needed to be any additional proof because, as I pointed out, the literal verb tense of "having been considered-worthy" is itself is NOT future tensed as you claimed but rather past tense.

Just because to claim to have quoted some verb tense from someone's commentary, will never change the fact that the resurrection from the dead and His coming, are future.

That age is a reference to the age of the resurrection.

All the claims of "verb tenses" in the world will not change "that age" into "this age".

35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
Luke 20:35-36

Here is the acid test to see if we are in "this age" or "that age".

People neither marry nor are given in marriage - That Age

• Question: Are people still marrying and given in marriage now?

Nor can people die anymore - That Age

• Question: Are people still dying now?

JLB

 

[JLB]

Sorry, but Jesus said they'd already been (having been) considered-worthy. Which is consistent with His saying that the ones "having heard" will live (not might live, but will). And His sheep follow Him (not might follow Him, but will). etc.

John 5:25 Disciples’ Literal New Testament (DLNT)
25 “Truly, truly, I say to you that an hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and the ones having heard will live.

Again, those who are counted worthy to attain "that age" and the resurrection from the dead, can not die anymore.

• those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; nor can they die anymore,

But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:35-36


Here is the acid test to see if we are in "this age" or "that age".

People neither marry nor are given in marriage - That Age

• Question: Are people still marrying and given in marriage now?

Nor can people die anymore - That Age

• Question: Are people still dying now?

JLB

 

[chessman]

Your claim that "the faith in Christ" is not mentioned but only "the faith" is, and underlining and emphasizing everything created by God,
shows everyone that it is your belief that faith in everything God created is "the faith" people will depart from in the last days.

Your ignoring the rest of what I underlined (which is what Paul is talking about BTW in this context) simply shows everyone here your propensity to read what you like and ignore the rest. Not to mention, I answered your question with 3 yet you think I answered it with 2.

If you would have addressed my question to you about Paul's statement in the previous chapter (rather than ignoring it), you'd find that I haven't ignored a single thing Paul says in this Epistle, including that of chapter 3.

1 Timothy 3:13 (NASB)13 For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a high standing and great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus.​

do deacons obtain salvation by serving well?

I understand that when Paul says "faith in Christ" he means "faith in Christ". However, when He says "the faith" in chapter 4, your assumption is provably wrong, that he means "faith in Christ". He means what he says "the faith" is in the very sentence. Which is why you keep ignoring the rest of the sentence.

 

[chessman]

It is those who are Christ's that will be resurrected from the dead at His coming.

Yep. At His Second coming. Having already been resurrected, thus ushering in "that age".

Just because to claim to have quoted some verb tense from someone's commentary, will never change the fact that the resurrection from the dead and His coming, are future.

The verb tenses are in the Text as having past (not future) and thus cannot be changed rationally.
You didn't answer AGAIN. Do you think Jesus resurrected from the dead in the past?

Here is the acid test to see if we are in "this age" or "that age".

Jesus was addressing the following question from some of the Sadducees—who deny that there is a resurrection

People neither marry nor are given in marriage - That Age

Wrong! There you go again, taking a phrase out of a sentence and ignoring the rest.

35 But the ones having been considered-worthy to attain that age and the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are they given-in-marriage.​

The people who neither marry nor are given to marry have to meet two criteria:
1. Be considered-worthy (check, accomplished, as the verb tense proves)
"and"
2. Be resurrected from the dead (THIS is future, never said otherwise).

Question: Are people still marrying and given in marriage now?

Yep. Even those that have been (not will be) "considered-worthy to attain that age". So? That doesn't mean they haven't already been "considered-worthy" to attain that age. It just means they haven't been resurrected yet (criteria two).

Question: Are people still dying now?

Yep. But not perishing! Why??? Because "having been considered-worthy' they cannot perish.

Again, those who are counted worthy to attain "that age" and the resurrection from the dead, can not die anymore.

I know. One criteria has already been met, namely they have been counted-worthy. Thus, they cannot perish.

 

[Angel Water]

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:11-13

In this parable, Jesus teaches the condition for being saved.

• lest they should believe and be saved.

Here Jesus teaches that believers have salvation.

Believe = Saved

He also teaches that a person can indeed choose to no longer believe, in which they will fall away.

• who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

Believe for a while = Saved for a while


Is a person who believes for a while, then no longer believes, still a believer?



JLB

A person who is reborn, regenerated, saved by no act of their own , are saved by the grace of The Father who called the name He knew before He created this reality in which the saved do live, never lets go of his sons and daughters. Faith does not save. God's grace saves.
Belief does not save. God's grace saves. Our belief in Jesus leads us to redemption and salvation. If we fall away, does God forget the name he knew before he invented Earth? No.
No one can take us from God's hand. That scripture does not equivocate. When it says , no one, that means not even we ourselves can remove ourselves from God's grace. Because we did not put ourselves there.
You I do believe would learn a great deal reading the prodigal son parable. In that your post would be that of the older brother. While the younger son is that one that we Christians know and defend. That son returned home and his father rejoiced at the sight of him. So much so that he threw a great feast of welcome. The older brother was angry and could not understand this.

It matters not that you write as that older brother now. If you are in Christ you are that younger prodigal son forever and ever. What is sorrowful here in the parable you're writing and I don't know for how many years you've done that here, is a false teaching. One that Jesus did not die to deliver to the world. One that God does not sponsor.

I hope and pray that you cease trying to persuade people they are not what God has said they are. Because in matters of credibility, you lose.
God wins.
Stop trying to convince others of what you believe.
If that is how you see it, then it is up to you to live it. Prayerfully, before you die, you'll find the truth. If you are truly in Christ you are already there. Which is why it is so odd that you'd try to argue to yourself here , because you are speaking from inside yourself when you try to tell others what you personally believe from reading the scriptures, that you're not securely in the hand of Jesus. That you are not truly reborn. Regenerated. Saved. Forgiven. And assured eternal life, eternal salvation.

I don't think it fair that you try to persuade others to your path. Because your path goes to the left. While righteous truth remains always righteous and true. And as such is a path that goes straight to the Father for all time.
If your teaching were truth you would make it very simple and post the verse that was made as challenge to it by freegrace. Post Scripture that a saved person can become unsaved!

When you don't know that salvation is eternal because when we did nothing to achieve it we can, as Jesus taught, do nothing to lose it, you were taught error by a deceiver pastor. And that one will have to answer for it.
Rather than work to convince others to follow false doctrine, why not listen to the truth others try to share with you here , and set yourself free of "works salvation"?

God help you to relax and find truth. If you've been teaching this false teaching here for as long as you've been a member, God help us.

 

[FreeGrace]

This is what I said:
"Here's the truth:
1. eternal life is a PRESENT POSSESSION when one believes. John 3:15,16, 5:24 and 6:47
2. those given eternal life (when they believe) shall never perish. John 10:28

What we have presently, is the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, if we are one with Him, we are one with the eternal life that is only found in Him.

Why must you continue to argue against the present possession of eternal life when one believes, esp since the Bible clearly and plainly SAYS SO??

As long as we remain in Him, we remain in the eternal life that is in Him.

Thus far, there has been only failure to show that the sealing ministry of the Holy Spirit, which is the way one is placed into union with Christ, per Eph 1:13, can be reversed and the sealed one becoming unsealed.

ONLY IF that can be shown by as clear a verse as Eph 1:13 is about how to be sealed, would one have a point.

If we are removed from Him, then we no longer joined to the eternal life that is only found in Him.

That subjective has not yet been established. Since Eph 1:13 is so clear, there MUST be an equally clear verse about becoming unsealed, and therefore, no longer "in Him". That hasn't been done.

John 5:24 says he who hears [hearkens to do] and believes [commits to, trusts in and obeys].

How can commitment and obedience be established in the first moments of a new believer?

This is from a lexicon regarding the word for 'hears':
NT:191 akouo (ak-oo'-o); a primary verb; to hear (in various senses):
KJV - give (in the) audience (of), come (to the ears), ([shall]) hear (-er, -ken), be noised, be reported, understand.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

What it clearly does NOT mean is the forced sense of lifetime obedience that some seem to keep pushing.

The point of John 5:24 is that those who understand the gospel and believe it POSSESS eternal life. iow, that's WHEN one possesses it; when they understand and believe the gospel. That means they have eternal life WHEN they believe. Not some undefined time after initial believing.

This alone indicates that it is at the end of a person's life, when there life has been evaluated

This is totally in error. Jesus was absolutely clear about WHEN one possesses eternal life. John 3:15,16, 5:24 and 6:47 all use the present tense for possession of eternal life. It's NOW, at the PRESENT TIME, WHEN one believes that they possess eternal life.

Your opinion has not, because it cannot, been shown from Scripture. All your guessing, assuming, and presuming come up short.

that they can judged whether or not they have been faithful to their Lord.

Why don't you see that is notion means salvation is by works? Your opinions lack the grace of God.

 

[FreeGrace]

It's been done by many here, over and over, but you just ignore what Jesus says.

This is hilarious. John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:47 all say that eternal life is a present possession for those who believe. Yet your claim has been that only at the end of one's life, after their life (lifestyle) has been "evaluated", does one actually get eternal life.

That totally disregards what Jesus clearly taught.

4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

Always amazed that one would use a parable in order to try to form a doctrine. But be my guest. Even though Jesus used parables to keep the truth from people. He even had to explain His parables to His own disciples.

 

[WIP]

A person who is reborn, regenerated, saved by no act of their own , are saved by the grace of The Father who called the name He knew before He created this reality in which the saved do live, never lets go of his sons and daughters. Faith does not save. God's grace saves.
Belief does not save. God's grace saves. Our belief in Jesus leads us to redemption and salvation. If we fall away, does God forget the name he knew before he invented Earth? No.
No one can take us from God's hand. That scripture does not equivocate. When it says , no one, that means not even we ourselves can remove ourselves from God's grace. Because we did not put ourselves there.
You I do believe would learn a great deal reading the prodigal son parable. In that your post would be that of the older brother. While the younger son is that one that we Christians know and defend. That son returned home and his father rejoiced at the sight of him. So much so that he threw a great feast of welcome. The older brother was angry and could not understand this.

It matters not that you write as that older brother now. If you are in Christ you are that younger prodigal son forever and ever. What is sorrowful here in the parable you're writing and I don't know for how many years you've done that here, is a false teaching. One that Jesus did not die to deliver to the world. One that God does not sponsor.

I hope and pray that you cease trying to persuade people they are not what God has said they are. Because in matters of credibility, you lose.
God wins.
Stop trying to convince others of what you believe.
If that is how you see it, then it is up to you to live it. Prayerfully, before you die, you'll find the truth. If you are truly in Christ you are already there. Which is why it is so odd that you'd try to argue to yourself here , because you are speaking from inside yourself when you try to tell others what you personally believe from reading the scriptures, that you're not securely in the hand of Jesus. That you are not truly reborn. Regenerated. Saved. Forgiven. And assured eternal life, eternal salvation.

I don't think it fair that you try to persuade others to your path. Because your path goes to the left. While righteous truth remains always righteous and true. And as such is a path that goes straight to the Father for all time.
If your teaching were truth you would make it very simple and post the verse that was made as challenge to it by freegrace. Post Scripture that a saved person can become unsaved!

When you don't know that salvation is eternal because when we did nothing to achieve it we can, as Jesus taught, do nothing to lose it, you were taught error by a deceiver pastor. And that one will have to answer for it.
Rather than work to convince others to follow false doctrine, why not listen to the truth others try to share with you here , and set yourself free of "works salvation"?

God help you to relax and find truth. If you've been teaching this false teaching here for as long as you've been a member, God help us.

The rules of this forum require opposing comments must include the Scripture references for support.

 

[WIP]

This thread is being dragged off topic into the endless pit if OSAS/OSNAS. The topic is the definition of Perish, not eternal security. Let's get back to the topic.

 

[JLB]

When you don't know that salvation is eternal because when we did nothing to achieve it we can, as Jesus taught, do nothing to lose it, you were taught error by a deceiver pastor. And that one will have to answer for it.
Rather than work to convince others to follow false doctrine, why not listen to the truth others try to share with you here , and set yourself free of "works salvation"?

God help you to relax and find truth. If you've been teaching this false teaching here for as long as you've been a member, God help us.

Everyone who is saved by faith, is saved because they obeyed the Gospel.

Obeying the Gospel is not "nothing", otherwise universal reconciliation is true.

Now, please answer the question that I asked you.

Is a person who believes for a while, then no longer believes, still a believer?


JLB

 

[JLB]

This is hilarious. John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:47 all say that eternal life is a present possession for those who believe. Yet your claim has been that only at the end of one's life, after their life (lifestyle) has been "evaluated", does one actually get eternal life.

That totally disregards what Jesus clearly taught.


Always amazed that one would use a parable in order to try to form a doctrine. But be my guest. Even though Jesus used parables to keep the truth from people. He even had to explain His parables to His own disciples.

Can one of His sheep become lost?

Is a lost sheep still saved?


JLB

 

[JLB]

Why must you continue to argue against the present possession of eternal life when one believes, esp since the Bible clearly and plainly SAYS SO??

Once the conditions are met for eternal life, then eternal life is received.

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

IOW if the sheep don't follow Him, they will be lost, and will perish.

JLB

 

[JLB]

Yep. At His Second coming. Having already been resurrected, thus ushering in "that age".

I see so you changed your story from present to future, at the Second Coming.

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8


JLB

 

[JohnDB]

This thread is being dragged off topic into the endless pit of OSAS/OSNAS. The topic is the definition of Perish, not eternal security. Let's get back to the topic.

Agreed...
And since this warning has gone unheeded (as well as one earlier in this thread) we aren't playing baseball.

This thread is closed.