What's new
  • Do not use Chrome Incognito when registering as it freezes the registration page.
  • Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
  • No longer will OSAS vx OSNAS be allowed to be debated, argued, or discussed in theology forum. Too much time is required to monitor and rescources used to debate this subject which hasn't been definitively decided in 3,000 years.

Who were the four beasts and four and twenty elders?

Dan00

Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2013
Messages
371
Christian
Yes
Here is Christ in the presence of God, the four beasts and four and twenty elders:

“And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints." (Revelation 5:6-8)

This gives us some clue who the four beasts and four and twenty elders are:

"And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.” (Revelation 5:9-10)

That and the passage below may tell us who one is: John who wrote the book:

“And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.” (Revelation 1:6-7)

We could assume it was a "generic" statement: that everyone would be a king or priest in heaven; but are the four and twenty elders really in heaven? John wasn't: not at the time he wrote Revelation 1; or at least it doesn't appear he was. There is also this:

"For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:" (Hebrews 9:24)

So, who are they? Jesus said the apostles would sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes (Mat 19:28.) Are the 24 elders the apostles and other early saints like Barnabas? Are the 4 beasts those who wrote the Gospels?

I would really like to know.

Dan
 
Last edited:

Dan00

Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2013
Messages
371
Christian
Yes
This is pure speculation; but maybe this reveals who the four and twenty elders are, and why John implied he is one of them:

"And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:. . . And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb." (Rev 21:12,14)

So the Tribes and Apostles are the Gates and Walls of the holy city, New Jerusalem.

Therefore it is possible they are the four and twenty elders before the throne.

This could also explain who "every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" is referring to: they would be the twelve tribes. Recall:

"And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;" (Rev 5:9)

The group, "kindred, tongue, people, nation," or variations, is used five times in the Revelation (see also: Rev 7:9; 11:9; 13:7; 14:6). The word "kindreds" is also used in Rev 1:7.

And, if that be the case, the Four Beasts would also be from the Twelve Tribes.

What group has the potential to be the four beasts? Are the Gospels relates?

Dan
 
Last edited:

Sinthesis

Member
Joined
Feb 23, 2009
Messages
5,188
Christian
Yes
They are not individuals, so much as they are symbolic roles defined by various characteristics among men who seek and recognize Jesus as their Messiah. The righteous who identify with the '12 tribes' recognize Jesus, as do those righteous who identify with the '12 apostles'. Look for the four beasts in the camp of the Israelites.
 

Dan00

Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2013
Messages
371
Christian
Yes
We are also both engineers.

For the record, the Red Snapper are found worldwide. I caught them in the Indian Ocean.:shades

Dan
 

JLB

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life
Supporter
Joined
Jul 13, 2012
Messages
22,028
Gender
Male
The Twenty Four Elders are Kings and Priests who have been redeemed by The blood of The Lamb.

These are in positions of authority.

9 And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth." Revelation 5:9-10


Notice that they speak of a time when they shall reign on the earth. They will come with The King of Kings when He returns to reign and rule from His Throne on earth.


JLB
 

Eugene

Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2012
Messages
10,778
Gender
Male
The Twenty Four Elders are Kings and Priests who have been redeemed by The blood of The Lamb.

These are in positions of authority.

9 And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth." Revelation 5:9-10

Notice that they speak of a time when they shall reign on the earth. They will come with The King of Kings when He returns to reign and rule from His Throne on earth.
I sort of wonder how you come to that conclusion; I read it a bit differently.
Rev 5:9 "And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation." You do realize that they were singing this song along with the four beasts? There's certainly more than twenty-four elders and four living ones in this church rank of believers.
Rev 5:10 "And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth." That word (On) is also interpreted as (Over) the earth, and that rule will be from Jesus' throne in heaven, and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Being that we see them in heaven, they must have been caught up in the like manner of all saints and that is as the dead to be raised first, and then those alive to be caught up together with them in the clouds (That cloud of witnesses). I'll leave off here to see where this goes.
 

JLB

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life
Supporter
Joined
Jul 13, 2012
Messages
22,028
Gender
Male
I sort of wonder how you come to that conclusion; I read it a bit differently.
Rev 5:9 "And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation." You do realize that they were singing this song along with the four beasts? There's certainly more than twenty-four elders and four living ones in this church rank of believers.
Rev 5:10 "And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth." That word (On) is also interpreted as (Over) the earth, and that rule will be from Jesus' throne in heaven, and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Being that we see them in heaven, they must have been caught up in the like manner of all saints and that is as the dead to be raised first, and then those alive to be caught up together with them in the clouds (That cloud of witnesses). I'll leave off here to see where this goes.

These that are in heaven now, are saints who died and went to heaven.

These are those whom God will bring with Jesus at the resurrection.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-15

Those who have died will return with Jesus when he comes to rule upon His Throne of Glory on Earth.

"When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. Matthew 25:31-32


At this time when he comes from heaven to earth, He will remove all the lawless and wicked, as well as put down all rule and authority.

This is the work on the complete dominion of heaven extending and being carried out on earth, so that just as it is in heaven, so shall it be on earth.

This is God's will.

On earth as it is in heaven.

Jesus reigns and rules on earth for 1000 years.


JLB
 

Eugene

Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2012
Messages
10,778
Gender
Male
These that are in heaven now, are saints who died and went to heaven. These are those whom God will bring with Jesus at the resurrection. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-15
What of the four beasts? Do they just get caught up just to return to the earth?

Those who have died will return with Jesus when he comes to rule upon His Throne of Glory on Earth.
Where is it located? I mean, at first Jesus throne is in heaven according to Rev 4:2 the way I read it.

"When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. Matthew 25:31-32. At this time when he comes from heaven to earth, He will remove all the lawless and wicked, as well as put down all rule and authority.

This is the work on the complete dominion of heaven extending and being carried out on earth, so that just as it is in heaven, so shall it be on earth. Jesus reigns and rules on earth for 1000 years.
Just as we have a government ruled from Washington, do you think Jesus will just send out instructions from where ever His new throne is? All nations gathered in which manner?[/quote]
 

JLB

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life
Supporter
Joined
Jul 13, 2012
Messages
22,028
Gender
Male
Eugene said -
What of the four beasts? Do they just get caught up just to return to the earth?
Read what the scripture says about the four beast's.


Eugene said -
Where is it located? I mean, at first Jesus throne is in heaven according to Rev 4:2 the way I read it.
Jesus is seated at The right hand of God at this time.

Untill He is to return to earth, when He gathers the saints from the four corners of heaven and earth and returns for the resurrection of the dead.

At that time He strikes the nations and destroys the false messiah with the brightness of His Coming.

He will put down all rule and authority.



Eugene said -
Just as we have a government ruled from Washington, do you think Jesus will just send out instructions from where ever His new throne is? All nations gathered in which manner?
All the nations will be gathered before Him in Jerusalem.

34 But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God's throne; 35 nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King.
Matthew 5:34-35


JLB
 

reba

Member
Joined
Dec 23, 2010
Messages
47,107
Gender
Female
34 But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God's throne; 35 nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King.
Matthew 5:34-35

JLB are you saying this verse says all nations will be gathered before Him in Jerusalem?

Mat 5:34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
Mat 5:35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
Mat 5:36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
Mat 5:37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

Context
 

JLB

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life
Supporter
Joined
Jul 13, 2012
Messages
22,028
Gender
Male
34 But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God's throne; 35 nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King.
Matthew 5:34-35


JLB are you saying this verse says all nations will be gathered before Him in Jerusalem?

Mat 5:34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
Mat 5:35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
Mat 5:36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
Mat 5:37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

Context
Yes, that is what I am saying because I am quoting the exact words of Jesus.

All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. Matthew 25:32

Jerusalem is The city of the Great King.

The great King is Jesus Christ, The king of kings.

Dan 00 has referred to Jerusalem as Babylon, that is what prompted my response.


JLB
 

reba

Member
Joined
Dec 23, 2010
Messages
47,107
Gender
Female
JLB you really believe it is right to put scripture together any way you wish?
Matt 5: 34-35 says nothing about nations. Where are those exact words of Jesus?


As to Jerusalem ...
Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

In what city was the Lord martyred ?
 

JLB

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life
Supporter
Joined
Jul 13, 2012
Messages
22,028
Gender
Male
JLB you really believe it is right to put scripture together any way you wish?
Matt 5: 34-35 says nothing about nations. Where are those exact words of Jesus?


As to Jerusalem ...
Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

In what city was the Lord martyred ?
The waters are peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues.

Sorry, but the city of Jerusalem does not have authority and influence over all the peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues.

Babylon is the first Religion, the Mother of all religions.

There is only one city that is the seat of a Religion the influences the peoples, and tribes of the world as well as kings and those in authority, and sits on 7 hills.

Vatican City, the city on the seven hills of Rome.

Who has slaughtered more saints and Christians and Prophets than Hitler killed Jews.

1 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and talked with me, saying to me, "Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters, 2 with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication." 3 So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. 4 The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the filthiness of her fornication. 5 And on her forehead a name was written: MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 6 I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with great amazement. 7 But the angel said to me, "Why did you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns. Revelation 17:1-7


There is nothing in these verses that says were Jesus was martyred!

And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth."


JLB
 

reba

Member
Joined
Dec 23, 2010
Messages
47,107
Gender
Female
In the words of Jesus
Mat_23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Back to The Revelation
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Where was the Lord crucified?
 

JLB

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life
Supporter
Joined
Jul 13, 2012
Messages
22,028
Gender
Male
In the words of Jesus
Mat_23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Back to The Revelation
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Where was the Lord crucified?
Jesus was crucified in the city spiritually called Sodom and Egypt, which in the natural called Jerusalem.

The city of Jerusalem is not Babylon.

Which is the point I have made.


JLB
 

reba

Member
Joined
Dec 23, 2010
Messages
47,107
Gender
Female
JLB some of us see things differently then others... thats OK We can do so here. Lets be careful to not step over the lines of the TOS which have been posted as a "Sticky" in the headings of the ET forum...
 

Eugene

Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2012
Messages
10,778
Gender
Male
As to Jerusalem ...
Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

In what city was the Lord martyred ?
What part of the church was Jerusalem? :shrug
 

2020 Hosting Fee

Total amount
$150.00
Goal
$667.40
Top