You Are Without Excuse' Quath & Others.

[Lewis]

WITHOUT EXCUSE

Romans 1:20 - For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

Please go to this link and read.
http://www.growingchristians.org/dfgc/without.htm

 

[Quath]

WITHOUT EXCUSE

Romans 1:20 - For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

A holy book proclaims that the "truths" within it are really true and obvious. What holy book doesn't make a claim like this?

If the Quran said "Look around and creation shows that Allah is the one true god," would you convert to Islam on the spot? Why would a passage from your book that is equivalent make someone else want to convert?

 

[jgredline]

Why would a passage from your book that is equivalent make someone else want to convert?

Because our God is the Only God who is alive...Our God went to the Grave and was resurrected 3 days later....A fact that nobody for 2000 years has been able to disprove....All other gods are dead and are awaiting for a meeting at the Great white thrown....

 

[Quath]

Because our God is the Only God who is alive...

This is a claim of every religion. In other words "My god is real and all others are false."

Our God went to the Grave and was resurrected 3 days later....A fact that nobody for 2000 years has been able to disprove....All other gods are dead and are awaiting for a meeting at the Great white thrown....

Other religions make similar claims and some make the exact same claims like the followers of Osiris & Dionysus. We can not disprove that this either. Yet, you are not a follower of Dionysus. Why is that?

My guess is that you were raised in a culture that promoted a certain set of gods. If you had been born in another culture and another time, you would be defending their existance in the same way you are doing now.

I also find the whole Jesus death/resurrection has little historical evidence. People think Jesus is suppose to be in a tomb and they don't find them. Instead of assuming he is in a mass grave or in another tomb, they assume he rose from the dead.

So the Bible writers added "angels" to try to make it sound like better proof. If angels are going to annpunce what happened then, why not come out and announce it now. Go on Oprah and let the world know what really happened.

And Christians respond with something abour free will so we can have plausable denyability that there is no God. Or in other words, God is hiding because he doesn't want everyone to have to believe because he is too obvious. Yet God wants everyone to know his son died for them (but not really everyone). God makes a great deal of Jesus with all the dead rising from the graves; the angels; the miracles; etc, yet this story is almost lost in history due to bad record keeping. It seems that God could not make Jesus really stand out more than the other people walking around doing "miracles" and "healing."

The whole story makes no sense and I can not make my mind turn off enough to accept that just because a book says I should believe in magical beings that I should believe in them.

 

[destiny]

Salvation is more than a 'thought process'. Until God reveals Himself to Quath he will remain unable to see.
Prayer will work better for him than anything else. I remember being an unbeliever; it took 'Spirit AND truth'.

 

[Atonement]

This is a claim of every religion. In other words "My god is real and all others are false."

No other religion claims they rose from the dead. And sitting at the right hand of the power of God..

 

[jgredline]

Ultimately I realize it is up to Quath to ''choose'' to accept or reject God....out of his own ''free will....'' The bible says that it is Gods desire, ''his will'' for all men to be saved...yet we know that not all men are....Quath has been around here for a lot longer than I have and probably knows what the bible says better than most Christians...So in the end it is up to Quath to ''choose'' whom he will serve...

The Holy Spirit has done his part and has called you to himself so indeed you are with out excuse....It is your choice....

 

[jgredline]

Quath
I would be willing to discuss the resurrection with you in detail if you like...
A few years ago, I set out to try and disprove the resurrection to myself and buried myself in a deep, deep study of it...I came away more rejuvenated
that I had ever been...

Now I am not saying a formal debate, but simply a discussion...iTS up to you..You decide if it is something you want to try and do...
I am willing to put in the time, because you are worth it...Let me know.
javier

 

[Quath]

No other religion claims they rose from the dead. And sitting at the right hand of the power of God..

Not of "God/Yahweh" but of other gods there have been such stories. Death and rejuvination is a very pagan idea that you can see in the stories of the seasons to the movement of the sun and moon.

I would be willing to discuss the resurrection with you in detail if you like...

I can tell you the problems I have with the resurrection story. If you see areas where I may have something wrong, you could point it out. I know it is not a debate, but my mind works more like a list of issues. Here are some of the issues:

1. Jesus dieing for the sins of others violates: The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. (Ezek. 18:20) Each person is suppose to be responsible for their sin. I know that the Bible has examples where innocent children died for the sins of the fathers, but I think that the philosophy the Hebrews had was that sin was something an individual had to deal with.

2. When Jesus was arrested, no witness was present who would write parts of the Bible. So it seems that what happened there is just guesswork based on the apostles that fled.

3. Pilate did not become a Christians as Christians try to claim. Christians were trying to seem more legitimate. At the time, their leader, Jesus, was considered an insurgent and they wanted to distance themselves from this. So they blamed the Jews instead. The later stories of Jesus put more and more blame on the Jews.

4. Pilate killing Jesus makes sense since Pilate determined that Jesus thought he would be a king of sorts. Pilate's main job was getting taxes and keeping rebellion down. So if Jesus was an ordinary insurgent, Pilate would have had him killed (and maybe tortured) and thrown into a mass grave. Why assume he did anything different from this?

5. A senator giving up a tomb to an insurgent would be like an American politician paying for Saddam Hussein's burial and funeral. It seems this senator was invented (or a rumor was started) to give a location for the body of Jesus.

6. The New Testamwnt stories heavily contradict each other after Jesus's death. I know most Christians do not believe this, but to me it is too obvious to ignore. That doesn't mean that Jesus didn't rise from the grave. It just means that if he did, it was badly recorded.

7. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. For example, many people saw Elvis after he died. Yet, people did not flock to believe that Elvis had beaten death and should be worshiped. People wanted more solid proof than a sighting at IHOP. For the same reasons, I need some very good proof that Jesus beat death. If there is a simple explanation for something or a more complex, magical one, I go with the simple.

8. So even if Jesus been put into the tomb, there are simple reasons other than resurrection for him not being there.
a. Someone stole his body. Maybe as a practical joke that grew too big or maybe to commit some sacrilidge.
b. Jesus was in a coma for a couple of days.
c. Jesus's body was delievered to the wrong tomb.

9. Jesus did not make for a good sacrifice because he was not a Levi. God had stated that only Levis would be able to perform sacrifices. Before then, some rulers could perform such ceremonies, but not after. Since Jesus came after and if God wanted the law to be observed, then Jesus would have to have been a Levi or a Levi would have had conducted the ceremony.

So that is a summary of the problems I have with the resurrection. My guess is that the differences in our reasoning mostly lies with #7. You probably give the story the benefit of the doubt and assume that as long as it is not proven wrong, it should be assumed to be correct. But that is just my guess.

 

[Relic]

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What breaks the stubborness and unbelief in a man?
It is Only the HOLY SPIRIT. And, only an open heart will harken to the HOLY SPIRIT.

Why is it that Quath rarely writes about the characteristics of the HOLY SPIRIT, but concentrates on the wrath of God?



Notice: Jesus even marvelled at the unbelief of men.
Matthew 13:58
And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.
and in Mark 6:6
And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.



I have no doubt that people, still to this day, are as those who were in the time of Moses during the exile, aA rebellious, ungrateful, and unbelieving people. They found no rest in the Lord because of their attitudes and unbelief.


Hebrews 3:7-19
7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, 8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: 9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. 10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. 11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) 12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; 15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. 16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. 17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.


I see that Quath doesn't understand what brings on the wrath of God, He thinks God's wrath should have no place in life. He thinks God should not be a wrathful God. He talks so much about the wrath of God, nor does he understand why God allows us to have the freedom of will to choose between the good and the evil in this life. From what I gather, Quath, thinks evil shouldn't have any consequences. But yet.... he provokes, and says he doesn't believe there is a God. He doesn't believe in God, but yet he bickers about the characteristics of God which he thinks God shouldn't have in the first place. He bickers about a God he doesn't even believe exists :silly:
Any wonder why the Holy Spirit has not been revealed to Quath? Might it be because he only searches for the things that describe the wrath of God instead of searching for the things that describe the light and love of God?

You get what you concentrate on.

Stubborn is is stubborn gets. :smt021

Proverbs 19:3
The foolishness of man perverteth his way: and his heart fretteth against the LORD.
Proverbs 28:25-26
25. He that is of a proud heart stirreth up strife: but he that putteth his trust in the LORD shall be made fat. 26. He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool: but whoso walketh wisely, he shall be delivered.



Destiny, where's that mule of yours who is stuck in the poopy position? .

OH, yeah, here he is....

Matthew 13:19
When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.





Psalm33:22
22 Let thy mercy, O LORD, be upon us, according as we hope in thee.

 

[Lewis]

Quath I love you man' there is hope for you still. You would be one powerful testimony. I can see it now' people looking up all your anti Christ remarks on this site. And then see you as a turned around power house of a Christian. And using your past rejection of Christ. To now bring people to Him. Guess what Quath' it is going to happen. Even if it happens after your death. Because every knee shall bow' and every tongue confess' that Jesus Christ is Lord.

 

[Drew]

I am going to take a different tack on this that will probably not be very popular.

I will suggest that perhaps Quath and others are non-believers in large measure because of the following: self-professed Christians simply appear to be no different than the rest of the world. And if one goes by the postings on this forum I would have empathy for anyone drawing such a conclusion.

Those who claim the name Jesus engage in the following behaviours routinely in this very forum:

1. calling other people liars.
2. making racist remarks.
3. calling other people children of the devil.
4. blatant refusal to fess up when they have been shown to have made false claims
5. Frequent use of rhetoric (trying to defend a position by attacking the character and integrity of those with whom one disagrees).
6. A general lack of commitment to the hard work of thinking carefully and properly.

Quath (and other non-believers), I put forward the following suggestion: Consider the possibility that many, if not even the majority, who claim to be Christians are in fact not actually members of the kingdom at all. Perhaps you are looking at herd of 100 animals made up of ten sheep and ninety wolves dressed in sheep's clothing. Understandably, you might discount the victorious life that the ten sheep are living simply because of the behaviour of the ninety wolves.

And, of course, I have to ask myself the same question that I am implying others need to ask themselves - am I really living a life whose quality is so remarkable as to commend the name of Jesus to others?

I realize that Quath may claim other objections to the Christian faith than the quality of its representatives.

 

[Relic]

Quath, your chronology is off, therefore, your understanding is perverted and way out of context. You chop up the scriptures as if all texts stands on it's own. Some scriptures are truth in and of themselves, but others must be read in context to the timeline and order of the word. God has every right to improve on the past. He sent Christ Jesus to cover our sins, NOT to suffer for the Father! He suffered for our sins. He took OUR sins on so that we might be saved. So that WE are shown a way of overcoming sin, through his example (spiritually, we overcome the sins of the world. ) OUR flesh is subject to the material consequences. If you cut skin, it bleeds. ONLY GOD can make the supernatural materialize. And if you have a qualm that he doesn't do it in every instance in which you think he "should" have done so, then you are not understanding the things of life's lessons. Mistakes, Discipline and Hardship, are all not going t stop because you say they are unfair and it's too tough on us.


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[Quath]

Why is it that Quath rarely writes about the characteristics of the HOLY SPIRIT, but concentrates on the wrath of God?

Probably because the Holy Spirit is a very nebulous concept. One one level I see it as a translation issue and not different from the character of Yahweh. On another, I see it being used by Christians to say they know what God wants and yet Christians never seem to come to agreement on this.

He sent Christ Jesus to cover our sins, NOT to suffer for the Father! He suffered for our sins. He took OUR sins on so that we might be saved.

The story could have simply been that God just decided one day to forgive everyone. He snaps his fingers and all are forgiven. I see no need for the ritual. I don't see why he would try to tell people that they were responsible for their sins and then demonstrate something different. It is a bad plot to me.

Consider the possibility that many, if not even the majority, who claim to be Christians are in fact not actually members of the kingdom at all. Perhaps you are looking at herd of 100 animals made up of ten sheep and ninety wolves dressed in sheep's clothing. Understandably, you might discount the victorious life that the ten sheep are living simply because of the behaviour of the ninety wolves.

It is an interesting idea. But would the ten people be different because they have a good philosophy they stick to or because there really is a Jesus? For example, I see some pretty giving Buddhists that are not greedy and are good people. Yet, I do not believe in reincarnation.

I will say that if Christians behaved the way you outlined that I probably would not be here. I would probably just be apathetic towards religion again. In addition, if Christians behaved this way, it would give more slightly more credit to the idea that they are getting a consistent message from a spirit.

 

[sisterchristian]

A holy book proclaims that the "truths" within it are really true and obvious. What holy book doesn't make a claim like this?

If the Quran said "Look around and creation shows that Allah is the one true god," would you convert to Islam on the spot? Why would a passage from your book that is equivalent make someone else want to convert?

I think that some people ask for a miracle to build their faith. But God warned those who saw miracles yet hardened their hearts against God that they would be judged more severely because they did not believe. "How shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord..... God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles" (Hebe.2:3-4). Those who say they would have a stronger faith if they could see a miracle do not understand the nature of unbelief. The multitude not only saw Jesus feed 5 thousand people with 5 loaves and two fishes, Yet the very next day these same people asked Jesus, "What sign will you perform then, that we may see it and believe you? What work will you do?" (John 6:30). The reason God does not do miracles today is because of the nature of unbelief among people. People would not believe in him even if they saw the supernatural. Saving faith is a belief of the human heart when the person sees God's plan in the Bible and sees Jesus Christ as the Saviour for their sins

 

[sisterchristian]

I am going to take a different tack on this that will probably not be very popular.

I will suggest that perhaps Quath and others are non-believers in large measure because of the following: self-professed Christians simply appear to be no different than the rest of the world. And if one goes by the postings on this forum I would have empathy for anyone drawing such a conclusion.

Those who claim the name Jesus engage in the following behaviours routinely in this very forum:

1. calling other people liars.
2. making racist remarks.
3. calling other people children of the devil.
4. blatant refusal to fess up when they have been shown to have made false claims
5. Frequent use of rhetoric (trying to defend a position by attacking the character and integrity of those with whom one disagrees).
6. A general lack of commitment to the hard work of thinking carefully and properly.

Quath (and other non-believers), I put forward the following suggestion: Consider the possibility that many, if not even the majority, who claim to be Christians are in fact not actually members of the kingdom at all. Perhaps you are looking at herd of 100 animals made up of ten sheep and ninety wolves dressed in sheep's clothing. Understandably, you might discount the victorious life that the ten sheep are living simply because of the behaviour of the ninety wolves.

And, of course, I have to ask myself the same question that I am implying others need to ask themselves - am I really living a life whose quality is so remarkable as to commend the name of Jesus to others?

I realize that Quath may claim other objections to the Christian faith than the quality of its representatives.

All I have to say to this is that God has called us to share the gospel with those that are lost! Nowhere did he say we are called to be living a perfect life before sharing the Gospel with others. And before you try to point out that most of us here are probably not even Christian, maybe you should take a hard look at yourself first! (before u try 2 take the speck out of someones eye, take the log out of your own eye) :smt063

 

[destiny]

Relic..

Destiny, where's that mule of yours who is stuck in the poopy position? .

I like to think of it as the fertilizer distribution position.

 

[Relic]

Destiny, where's that mule of yours who is stuck in the poopy position? .

I like to think of it as the fertilizer distribution position.

: : : : : : :


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[Quath]

I think that some people ask for a miracle to build their faith. But God warned those who saw miracles yet hardened their hearts against God that they would be judged more severely because they did not believe. ... The reason God does not do miracles today is because of the nature of unbelief among people. People would not believe in him even if they saw the supernatural. Saving faith is a belief of the human heart when the person sees God's plan in the Bible and sees Jesus Christ as the Saviour for their sins

I would disagree with this. If God did miracles today in a verifable fashion, I know lots of people personally who would convert to believing in God.

So what do we make of the Bible saying people were not convinced by miracles in the days of old? My guess is the miracles were not that miraclous. For example, someone complains of being demon possessed and the healer says they are cured. We couldn't verify demons before or after so anyone can make that claim. We also see many fake healers out there selling snake oil or even claiming to heal for God. So healing miracles are too easily faked (unless an eye or leg grows back). The feeding of the masses could have just been made possible by people who brought extra food with them and shared it. Moses kept seeing God alone, maybe because no one else was seeing God. Whenever the Isrealites won a fight, they claim that God is pleased. If they lost, they say that someone angered him.

People are easily fooled by miracles back then. Miracle workers were pretty common. Magic was widely believed and people see what they believe.

 

[sisterchristian]

I would disagree with this. If God did miracles today in a verifable fashion, I know lots of people personally who would convert to believing in God.

So what do we make of the Bible saying people were not convinced by miracles in the days of old? My guess is the miracles were not that miraclous. For example, someone complains of being demon possessed and the healer says they are cured. We couldn't verify demons before or after so anyone can make that claim. We also see many fake healers out there selling snake oil or even claiming to heal for God. So healing miracles are too easily faked (unless an eye or leg grows back). The feeding of the masses could have just been made possible by people who brought extra food with them and shared it. Moses kept seeing God alone, maybe because no one else was seeing God. Whenever the Isrealites won a fight, they claim that God is pleased. If they lost, they say that someone angered him.

People are easily fooled by miracles back then. Miracle workers were pretty common. Magic was widely believed and people see what they believe.

OMG! Have you ever seen or heard of anyone that got healed from a life threatening disease? Have you ever seen the birth of a baby? my God... that in itself is a true miracle! "He who believes in him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten son of God" (John 3:18) If a person does nothing about salvation, he or she has "believed not", and will be condemned!