You Are Without Excuse' Quath & Others.

[Devekut]

I'm not sure that's coherent, but I think i know what your saying...

I think if you want to show people like Quath that he should believe in God you actually have to either approach him using his own criteria (which does not include citing evidence from an infallible book that he believes to be full or errors) or demonstrate why his criteria is actually incorrect.

Its like a Muslima trying to prove to you that Jesus wasn't crucified because the infallible Qu'ran says so. Instead, you need to work with the historical evidence and rational argument.

 

[Atonement]

And why do you think I mentioned Jesus' empty tomb and not Scripture? But no, trying to witness to someone even proof, and it turns into another debate. I did not use Scripture to prove my point, I used FACTS that can be seen, told and proven with out any doubt.

 

[Lewis]

Quath" when I see the rivers flow' I see God, and when I see even a dog bark I see God, even when I see a snake craw on the ground I see God, when I look at the mountains' I see God, when I look at the human body I see God, when I see the stars in the sky' I see God. So I am without excuse. All these things were made by Him' and for Him. None of this stuff came into being by chance' or a primordial ooze. There is just no excuse. For someone as intelligent as you' to not see this. But then again your intelligence is what is getting in your way.

 

[christian_soldier]

Only one Scripture expresses Peters death..

Jhn 21:18 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.

Jhn 21:19 This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.

These allude to the fact that Peter would die a martyr's death.

And extra-biblical and verifiable historical texts support that he and Paul and others did, indeed, die martyrs' deaths. Correct?

 

[Quath]

Wrong.. There are about five million people that have seen the empty tomb. Can the others gods come close to that? NO!!!!!!!

People have seen a tomb that was empty. I find it far simplier and realistic to assume that Jesus was never placed in that tomb. His followers just found the wrong tomb and made an assumption.

So what I doubt is the accuracy of the story. For one, a senator giving a tomb to an insurgent (Jesus) would be like a congressman today giving a funeral for Saddam. This seems very unlikely. The common treatment for someone in Jesus's place where he has been convicted of being an insurgent is to be burried with the criminals in the mass grave. So it is simple to assume that Jesus's followers lost track of the body and thought it went into a tomb. When they got to the tomb it was empty (no surprise) and they just assumed that Jesus went to heaven. The angel(s) could have just been men playing a joke or other followers of Jesus who arrived first.

when I see the rivers flow' I see God, ... For someone as intelligent as you' to not see this. But then again your intelligence is what is getting in your way.

This kind of reminds me of a conservation I had with a Muslim. He was trying to show me what a modern day miracle the Quran is. How could I deny it? So maybe my skeptical perspective leads me to deny Creationism as well as the Quran?

 

[Atonement]

People have seen a tomb that was empty. I find it far simplier and realistic to assume that Jesus was never placed in that tomb. His followers just found the wrong tomb and made an assumption.

Yes the Wrong Tomb theory.. You have just expressed a theory that has been around for many years. But the fact is, the tomb where Jesus was laid was given to His mother from a old man that purchased that plot years before. Mary took Mary Magdalene with her to anoint the body of Jesus. It was Mary Magdalene that first saw that Jesus was not there after three days.

This theory would also have questions around the Roman soliders ordered by Pilot to guard the tomb. If they guarded the wrong tomb, they also would have been killed for not following orders, do a study on ancient Rome you will see that it's just not possible for the soliders to be guarding the wrong tomb. This theory "The wrong Tomb" has to many faults in it for one to actually believe.

I rather you just tell me that Jesus never died but they took Him off the cross before he actually died and then walked out three days later.. Oh yeah, that's another theory that has to many faults.. My bad

 

[christian_soldier]

Yep. I guess mass hysteria and hallucinations would account for all those sightings of the resurrected Jesus, too.

:roll:

 

[lovely]

Hi Quath,

If you die and go to heaven, will you be sad that I am in hell? If so, how can heaven be a happy place? If not, why worry about me?

I am sad about it now, Quath, because I want you to be my brother...and Christ's brother. He gave His life so that we may share in His inheritance. I don't think in Heaven I will be sad, because there is no sorrow there according to Scripture. I'm not sure how God reconciles this to be honest, but I do think the Father grieves over those who do not believe in Him, especially considering what His Son went through for us all. In my human sentiments this is hard for me to think about, honestly. I have family and friends here that I would love to see saved, but they are not interested...they are not my family in Christ. Jesus once lamented over the unbelief of Israel...His people. I feel that same blend of grief and love for my own family and friends. I think that part of the answer lies in worldly relationships verses eternal ones. For example, my late husband and I will not be married in Heaven. I was permitted by God to marry again, because death breaks the bonds of marriage. This was a hard Truth for me to know in those early days of losing Shaun, but now I see how it was for my benefit, and my children's as well. In Heaven, Shaun is my brother...he is the brother of his sons and daughter...he is the brother of Michael, my husband now. So, things will be different in our relationships there, and those who do not believe will not be my family then...even if they are now. As believers we should learn to think in these terms, but it is difficult because we see dimly. The Truth of these things really should spurn us (believers) on to love, and to prayer, for the lost. The arguments fade when we consider what the reality is of those who remain lost. Again, It does sadden me now.

So that's the logical side of me. The emotional side is thinking more "How can you worship a being that you believes tortures people for all of eternity? Does it not bother you that God could choose no eternal suffering and doesn't bother to?" Maybe we just have radically different perspectives on things. I dunno.

If I were honest, I would say that over the years many things about God have bothered me. I grew up a spoiled brat, and am still seeking God to instill a greater humility in me, because thinking of myself and how I feel about things doesn't die easily. I think I was under the impression that God was to serve me, rather than me serve Him. God knows of my self-righteousness during that time, and of the remnants that exist in me today. The difference in our perspectives is that I know Him and you don't. How can you get to know someone you don't even believe in?

Hell was not prepared for me as a believer...though it was my destiny as an unbeliever. Satan will be cast there, and those who do not believe God along with him (he's taking as many down with him as are willing to go). Just as unbelief killed Adam and Eve, separated Adam and Eve, it will continue to mean death and separation for those who follow that same presumptuous prideful path. God is not a liar. He is holy, and my sin is an offence to His holiness. As holy as He is, I am that much unholy apart from Him...it would not surpass me that an everlasting Hell would be the only just punishment for me.

I know some of my brothers and sisters here believe in annihilation, but I find that Scripture leans toward everlasting fire, and that God's holiness dictates it. (I don't want to start that debate here, though) The thing is, God's grace is so matchless, so abounding, that He loves man enough to be willing to adopt him, give him eternal life...a joint inheritance with His only begotten Son...all made possible through Christ's spilled blood. Unholy me, who deserved Hell, has been given eternal life. This shows the measure of God's love...from everlasting fire to everlasting life through no work of my own, but only by God's love. So, as bad as the punishment of Hell is, and as unholy as I am, God's grace and love are greater still because He has chosen to do more than just annihilate me for a little mercy...but rather He has chosen to save me completely for an abundance of mercy...complete mercy. Hell was prepared for the evil one, the distorter, and those who follow him will join him there, but those who know God will be adopted into eternal life. More than slaves, sons. This is pure mercy, this is pure sacrificial love, and God made it possible by bruising His own Son in my place.

I can't really explain it differently. I can only share my own experience with you. The Lord bless you.

 

[christian_soldier]

Well said, lovely.

 

[Quath]

Mary took Mary Magdalene with her to anoint the body of Jesus. It was Mary Magdalene that first saw that Jesus was not there after three days.

There are too many contradictions to believe that the Bible is very reliable in this area. For example, who found the empty tomb?

According to Luke, it was Mary Magdalene and the other Mary.
According to Mark, it was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome.
According to Matthew, it was Mary Magdalene and Joanna and Mary the mother of James and a couple of other women.
According to John, it was just Mary Magdalene alone who ran back and got Peter.

At the tomb, who did they see?

According to Matthew, there is an angel like lightening on a rolled away stone and a couple of guards.Leaving the tomb, they meet Jesus.
According to Mark, a young man in a white robe was sitting inside the tomb.
According to Luke, there were two men in dazzeling apparel.
According to John, Mary, Peter and another disciple find an empty tomb. Peter and disciple leave. Mary finds two angels in the tomb. She turns and see Jesus at the tomb.

Mark says that Mary told noone. The other says that Mary reported seeing the empty tomb to the other disciples.

This just sounds too made up to me.

I can't really explain it differently. I can only share my own experience with you.

If God does exists and if he does send nonbelievers to eternal torment, then I would have to conclude that he is the most evil being ever imagined. If he did exist, I would not want to worship someone like that. If God is all powerful and annihilation is kinder than eternal torment, then God would not be kind.

But I also have problems with eternal life and heaven than just this. For example, can you sin in heaven? If not, have you lost your free will? If you can have free will and not sin, then God didn't need to let the Garden of Eden curse happen.

After a thousand years, do you get bored? What about a billion? Trillion? When you reach 100 trillion years old and realize eternity has not started, will you despair? I would. Yet, if my spirit wouldn't then my spirit is not "me." It would be some loosely associated being with myself.

There are many other problems like by some christians rules for Salvation, Hitler is in heaven and Jews are in hell. A child that was raped and murdered may spend eternity with her killer in heaven. I love my wife. If we were separated for all of eternity, then I would be sad. If I was happy in heaven, then I must be drugged out of my mind.

So maybe it is just a difference in perspective, but I see eternal life like the Buddhists do.. as a curse. But my current belief is that when I die, there is nothing more.

Thank you for sharing your experiences. It does help me to understand you better and know you are a good person.

 

[christian_soldier]

But my current belief is that when I die, there is nothing more.

If you're right, we'll both be just dead.

If I'm right...not so good for you.

 

[Lewis]

If you're right, we'll both be just dead.

If I'm right...not so good for you.

But you are right.

 

[christian_soldier]

Tick tock

But you are right.

I know that, and you know that, but how are we going to beat some sense :smt062 into Quath et al :smt021 , (in a loving way :smt055, of course), before the clock runs out??

 

[Solo]

Re: Tick tock

I know that, and you know that, but how are we going to beat some sense :smt062 into Quath et al :smt021 , (in a loving way :smt055, of course), before the clock runs out??

I do not believe that he has the ability to come to Jesus even when drawn by God Almighty because of his intellectual pride.

• 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. F9 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. John 3:18-20

Pray that he be humbled and that the spirit(s) that are keeping him blinded to the truth be bound and cast away.

 

[christian_soldier]

Re: Tick tock

Pray that he be humbled and that the spirit(s) that are keeping him blinded to the truth be bound and cast away.

Amen to that. :angel:

 

[Rick W]

I will say that if Christians behaved the way you outlined that I probably would not be here. I would probably just be apathetic towards religion again. In addition, if Christians behaved this way, it would give more slightly more credit to the idea that they are getting a consistent message from a spirit."

Your constant attacks on Christianity don't help Quath. People here have opened their hearts to you such as lovely has just done and what do you do?

"then I would have to conclude that he is the most evil being ever imagined"

We here love God and Jesus. "most evil being ever imagined" is not very flattering toward the God we love. Suppose someone insulted someone you love dearly. I don't expect you'd be very pleased either.

Maybe if you showed a little more respect you might have a better chance of being treated better. It's a two way street Quath. People are getting tired of your insults/confrontations. I don't walk into a biker bar and shout, "Harleys suck!" then expect them to buy me a beer.

 

[Vic C.]

Quath, you are thinking in terms of individuality. The "collective" analogy we used earlier is a much better way of looking at our state of being in the afterlife. There won't be any more me, me, me then.

 

[Quath]

If I'm right...not so good for you.

Yeah, that's Pascal's Wager. If you are interested, there are many problems with this logic. Check the link for them.

We here love God and Jesus. "most evil being ever imagined" is not very flattering toward the God we love.

I apologize to any I offended. My goal was just to state my perspective, which is not a Christian one. However, I do know Christians that agree with me and therefore believe in annihilation or salvation from hell.

But I also see that some Christians see God as good and yet believe that he created a place of eternal torment. I can not wrap my head around that belief. So my opinion probably does sound offensive. So I apologize for that.

Quath, you are thinking in terms of individuality. The "collective" analogy we used earlier is a much better way of looking at our state of being in the afterlife. There won't be any more me, me, me then.

Heh. That creeps me out also.

:robot: Come to heaven. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated. :robot:

 

[Rick W]

I apologize to any I offended. My goal was just to state my perspective, which is not a Christian one. However, I do know Christians that agree with me and therefore believe in annihilation or salvation from hell.

But I also see that some Christians see God as good and yet believe that he created a place of eternal torment. I can not wrap my head around that belief. So my opinion probably does sound offensive. So I apologize for that.

And you'll continue.
You may as well say, "You're belief sucks. You believe in a diety who is a mureder, liar and a manipulator. I don't like what you believe and I'm going to tell you that 'til the cows come home.

Btw,
I like ya'll.
Have a nice day."

That's a crock Quath and you know it. We've been very tolerant of you over the years and the fact that you're not banned is testimony to that tolerance.
Oh, and if I offended you well, I apologize for that.

 

[destiny]

And you'll continue.
You may as well say, "You're belief sucks. You believe in a diety who is a mureder, liar and a manipulator. I don't like what you believe and I'm going to tell you that 'til the cows come home.

Btw,
I like ya'll.
Have a nice day."

That's a crock Quath and you know it. We've been very tolerant of you over the years and the fact that you're not banned is testimony to that tolerance.
Oh, and if I offended you well, I apologize for that.

Yes, Quath has mastered 'twisting the knife gently'. But, I admit I think not believing in a creator or seeing a definite order to nature/creation speaks of extreme blindness/foolishness ...so we're even :wink: