C
Clizby
Guest
Ok, you too.
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[__ Science __ ] Scientific argument for God's existence
- Thread starter Mmarco
- Start date
You have faith Clizby...I'm surprised you don't know it.
What does faith mean?
faith
| 1. | n | complete confidence in a person or plan, etc. |
| 2. | n | a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny |
source: https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/faith
You have complete confidence that God did not begin creation and you most probably have faith in science to come up with "the truth".
So, you see, you DO have faith...we all do. We all believe in SOMETHING...whatever that something may be.
So, you say faith does not lead to truth...
Does YOUR faith lead to truth?
HOW are you seeking the truth if you have already discarded one POSSIBLE answer to the creation problem?
Maybe you're just a little lazy? Wanting to do away with all POSSIBLE answers except the one you feel comfortable with.
Sometimes the answers we feel comfortable with will not turn out to be the correct ones.
I'm a friend of science. I don't discard anything. It's just that science is not stable and has not given me any concrete answers.
I trust you know that science believed the universe always existed and it was not until the 1960's that it was discovered the the universe had a beginning.
This is very interesting to me because the first book of the bible states the same: Let there be light/let there be life/let there be a start/let's get things going!
I also hope you know that even scientists know that something CANNOT come from nothing. So how would YOU explain this universe? Did it come from nothing? Time also had a start. What could possibly create time? Didn't it have to be something OUTSIDE of time? A watch cannot create itself, can it?
So, let's do this...I'll explain God the best I can...
IF YOU explain to me how science explains the beginning of everything.
I don't know what is in non Christian texts.
Doesn't matter what I think. I'm not your judge. That's between you and your creator, when you stand before Him.
C
Clizby
Guest
This is untrue. I don't believe that a god did not create the universe. I don't know how the universe came to be or why it is at all. Why don't you use the biblical definition if faith? Anyway, I don't have faith like you do. I have confidence in science because it can demonstrate it is a pathway to truth. What scientific truth do we have that came from the bible? Vaccines, medical science, energy sources, flight etc. Look around almost everything you see came about because of scientific research. You believe in god without evidence and anyone can believe in anything as the bible describes faith as believing in what you hope for.
Again, science can demonstrate what it believes to be true can you demonstrate god exist? When science does not know something it admits it and gets to the task of finding the answers.
I have not discarded the possibility of creation. If you can give sufficient evidence of a creation I will believe it.
Again, I am open to god existing and creating everything. Just demonstrate it it true.
Really? Again name one thing we know about the universe that we know from the bible. How many people do you know that are alive because of medical science? I know many.
Yes, and it was more science that discovered this truth. Not the bible.
I don't know the answer to these questions and you cannot demonstrate your hypothesis that god did it. Any watch you give me I can track down its maker. I cannot do the same for the universe.
Science does not know how the universe started or why it is here at all and I never claimed this.
You on the other hand are making a claim that god created everything, can you demonstrate this?
C
Clizby
Guest
Other religious texts claim miracles, healing's etc. How do I determine if a miracle happened which god is responsible?
C
Clizby
Guest
But I am asking you. Do you condone God torturing me in hell forever after I die? I am not asking you to judge me, I am asking if you think the punishment God gives is just.
Not_Now.Soon
Member
One way to look at it is this. The penalty for sin is death. (Which sounds harsh because we all sin), but Jesus has already taken that burden from us. All we have to do is believe in Him.
As far as justice is concerned the heavy price has already been paid, but if it was you, would you offer it to someone who doesn't acknowledge the price you paid? I don't think the scope of what Jesus did for us is considered when people think of rejecting Him, and rejecting God. Thinking that all they did is not recognized and not accepted for what Jesus did for them.
A follow up thought to this is why sin and death are so tightly linked. Thinking of it on a global scale, sin is a very bad thing. Striving to be moral should be enough to understand the need to steer away from "just how the world works" and to have better morals. Even the focus of playing the game of life in the context of "this the way the world around you works" is playing with kid gloves and is missing out on the dynamic of evil and harm in the world.
With that in mind the scope of taking the punishment of sin from us is so much more then is casually considered when a person says they don't recognize what Jesus did for us. This wasn't just for you, me, or everyone on this site. It was done for everyone in the world, with only the condition to acknowledge what Jesus did for us, and follow Him.
I honestly don't think the question should be that if this is true, is God justified for sending people to Hell for rejecting Him; but instead the question should be, is this true? Did Jesus come and live to save us all.
If it is true then what we are asked to do is very small in return. If it isn't true then there's no point to consider it any further by asking if God is justified or not based on your unbelief.
If it's true that Jesus came, taught us how to be and how to follow Him, then took our burden from what happens with sin, then that is no small matter to casually ignore and think all I did was not believe. Rejecting us because we reject Jesus might be a lot more fair then it's recognized.
I'm not fluent in other texts. I don't have any way to intelligently comment on them. If you have investigated them I would ask, do miracles happen today when they pray in the name of whatever entity they serve?
Well, if a believer prays in the name of Jesus, then the God of the Bible is the one being asked to work the miracle.
I do understand that people who refuse to treat the Lord's children with agape can't be allowed into heaven. The Lord will not permit anyone to mistreat His children forever.
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. John 13:34 NKJV
This command is just. I like that God has commanded us to love each other. Treating people with love is just a wonderful thing.
I honestly can't understand how any reasonable person could object to treating God's children with love.
C
Clizby
Guest
It is a yes or no question that most christian will not answer straightforward. Your God thinks it is a just punishment. Do you?
C
Clizby
Guest
Yes, that is the claim. Other texts do say their god can do miracles so if we substantiate a miracle happened how do we determine which god did it?
How can we link the miracle to a particular God though? Just praying to them is not sufficient because any God could answer the prayer. But for the sake of evidence, do you have evidence (not a story) of a miracle that happened after praying to Jesus?
That makes no sense at all.
Yes, Jesus healed me after a group of His followers laid hands on me and asked Jesus to heal me. Take it for what you will.
C
Clizby
Guest
This does not answer the question. Do you think I deserve to be tortured forever for not believing in Jesus death and resurrection for forgiveness of sins?
We should love each other, I have no objection to that.
Not_Now.Soon
Member
There's more to the question then just a yes or a no. In the end it's God's judgment not yours or mine. But for my answer, it's that God doesn't want to condemn anyone, but that everyone can be saved. That's what the bible says anyways. God so loved the world that He sent His only son. The question that should be asked, is if any of it is true. If it's not true then none of it matters, the faith I hold would be a lie then. But if it is true that Jesus came to save the world; then be glad with God's patience. He's not done with you yet.
I don't know how you searched for God, or why you never found that He answered. Maybe He did in ways you weren't expecting, so you didn't acknowledge them. Maybe He didn't reply and has His own reasons for that. I don't know, but I do know that you're still around. You not believing in God hasn't killed you and your time isn't up. Maybe you still will find personal experiences to confirm that God exists. Maybe you with find someone you trust and believe their testimony about what God has done. Maybe with study you'll come to know God and you won't need a personal experience. Or maybe none of that will occure. Honestly I don't know what is going to happen in your life, but I can hold onto the fact that you are still here, so that means something in my opinion.
Keep searching for if God is real. Pay attention to others who say they believe in God, expecially if they are willing to explain why to you. Then consider what they say and count it like a detective searching for clues would count it. Is the person reliable? If so does that mean there's no reason to doubt them on one detail or another, so that you can consider it fully. If the person is unreliable for whatever reason, does that mean that what they say has to be considered a lie or otherwise untrue? By giving each person a chance that they are telling the truth that means you don't have to be blinded from being able to see if they are right.
You don't need proof to give something a chance. I know you searched for God for a while. Don't stop. He's out there, He's real, and He loves you. I have no doubt about that.
Interesting question. You seem to want me to explain how the punishment fits the crime. First people are punished for sin. Second, I don't know you very well, so I have no idea what sins you may have done, and what you deserve. Third, I have very little knowledge of the place of punishment, so I don't really know what levels of punishment there may be for various sins. Given so little information, I don't really know how to explain to you exactly how your particular potential future punishment would fit any particular sins you may have committed over the years. What reason do you have to think everybody gets exactly the same punishment? Some Scriptures speak of outer darkness where some people will be cast. Other Scriptures relate how the smoke of the beast's torment will go up forever.
I do trust God to do the right thing.
The good news is that you don't have to be punished at all. Just accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior. Agree to follow Jesus's command to love His followers. Trust Jesus to lead you down the right paths.
I think you may misunderstand something. God does not torture us in hell. We do.
Sinfulness cannot exist with God in heaven and so our propensity to be our own gods drives a wedge between us and God that condemns us. It's like when our own children rebel against us and choose to live a life of debauchery, revelry, drugs, alcohol, fornication, and so on. Although we see it happening and we hate it, until they come to their senses we watch as they destroy their lives. We continue to love them and when they are ready, be there for them when needed.
God gives us a choice, sometimes referred to as a free will, between living eternally with Him in heaven or to remain separated from Him in hell. The offering of salvation has been made. The decision is ours whether to accept it or not.
C
Clizby
Guest
Ok, I know many people with this same story. I am not saying that it never happened, I am saying that I have never seen sufficient evidence to prove these are miraculous healing's.
C
Clizby
Guest
Why would I do that? The Bible says something different:
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Mt 10:28.
This propensity is in my flesh and I cannot do anything about it. I was sinful at my birth as the Psalms say. I get punished for something that is out of my control. I would never punish my kids in hell for their choices though or just for being born. I would forgive them without requiring them to worship me or under the threat of punishment.
What choice? Worship me or I will punish you in hell, that is not a choice. Especially when he does not reveal himself in any tangible way. If God exists, I would do whatever I could to not go to hell, but that does not mean that I would love him.
Also, is the sinless me the real me? It seems to me that who I am is made up of my choices during my life. My tendencies for certain "sins" make up who I am. I believe a sinless me is not me at all. That is not who I am or would be in heaven. Why does God require us to forgive others without punishing them but he will not do that for us?
Actually He does.
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
John 3:16-18 NKJV