Bible Study What is your only comfort in life and in death?

[atpollard]

• What is your only comfort in life and in death?
• What must you know to live and die in the joy of this comfort?
• How do you come to know your misery?
• What does God’s law require of us?
• Can you live up to all this perfectly?
• Did God create people so wicked and perverse?
• Then where does this corrupt human nature come from?

But are we so corrupt that we are totally unable to do any good and inclined toward all evil?

1. Yes.

• [Genesis 6:5 NIV] 5 The LORD saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time.
• [Genesis 8:21 NIV] 21 The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: "Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.
• [Job 14:4 NIV] 4 Who can bring what is pure from the impure? No one!
• [Isaiah 53:6 NIV] 6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to our own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

2. Unless we are born again by the Spirit of God.

• [John 3:3-5 NIV] 3 Jesus replied, "Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again." 4 "How can someone be born when they are old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother's womb to be born!" 5 Jesus answered, "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

 

[JLB]

But are we so corrupt that we are totally unable to do any good and inclined toward all evil?

1. Yes.

So the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.” Genesis 4:6-7


Cain has a choice to do good or yield to evil.




JLB

 

[JLB]

2. Unless we are born again by the Spirit of God.

• [John 3:3-5 NIV] 3 Jesus replied, "Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again." 4 "How can someone be born when they are old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother's womb to be born!" 5 Jesus answered, "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

Those who are born again must walk according to the Spirit, so that they do don’t fulfill the sinful desires of the flesh.


I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Galatians 5:16



There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1



Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13


Here is the choice each born again Christian must make, if they want to receive eternal life on the Day of Christ.

• For if you live according to the flesh you will die;
• but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. Galatians 6:7-8

• but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9





JLB

 

[atpollard]

So the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.” Genesis 4:6-7


Cain has a choice to do good or yield to evil.
JLB

[Genesis 6:5 NIV] 5 The LORD saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time.

• Did God lie in Genesis 6 and “every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart” is NOT only evil?

[Genesis 8:21 NIV] 21 The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: "Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.

• Did God lie again in Genesis 8 when He reaffirmed that “every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood”?

[Job 14:4 NIV] 4 Who can bring what is pure from the impure? No one!

• Is Job 14 incorrect that people can bring what is pure from the impure?

[Isaiah 53:6 NIV] 6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to our own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

• Was Isaiah mistaken and not all have gone astray, so that God only had to lay the iniquity of SOME on ”him” (since the righteous have no need of a savior).

Just out of curiosity, what choice did Cain make?
Was he inclined towards evil or did he choose good?

 

[atpollard]

Those who are born again must walk according to the Spirit, so that they do don’t fulfill the sinful desires of the flesh.

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Galatians 5:16

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13

Here is the choice each born again Christian must make, if they want to receive eternal life on the Day of Christ.

• For if you live according to the flesh you will die;
• but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. Galatians 6:7-8

• but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9

JLB

I applaud everything here except for one small line ...

“Here is the choice each born again Christian must make, if they want to receive eternal life on the Day of Christ.”

I believe that Ephesians 2:1-10 places the walking in good works as our reasonable act of obedience because we HAVE eternal life rather than because we WANT eternal life. We are saved because God loves us and we are obedient because we love God.

 

[for_his_glory]

[Parahrase of original inspirational source whose name is withheld due to T.O.S. and moderator request.]

If you are going to paraphrase from the original source of another member you need to let us know exactly what they have posted, where to find their original post and also give their name so there is no misrepresentation. There ws no moderator request for holding back another members name.

Please go back and read ToS #1.4

 

[for_his_glory]

The “Doctrine of Christ” was presented as the alternative to “Calvinism” in the moderator warning, however I believe that the intent was to discuss the Doctrines that are found in actual scriptures rather than focus on the Calvinism vs Arminianism debate. So the “Doctrine of Christ” is Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21.

What I paraphrased is from the Heidelberg Catechism of 1563.

Can you give us a link to the Heidelberg Catechism of 1563 that you paraphrased from so we can read your source.

 

[for_his_glory]

How do you determine that a doctrine is indeed false?
Is any interpretation of scripture that differs from your own ... false?

Let us speak bluntly, I found it very offensive that the official MODERATION made a statement contrasting Calvinism with the Doctrines of Christ. The term for “free will” for the first thousand years of Christendom was “heresy”. Ask Pelagius.

I acknowledge that the “Free Will” Theology has become very popular and dominates most churches in the US (I have no idea about world wide statistics), but I object to the careful biblical study and doctrines supported by Augustine and the Reformation and Spurgeon and R.C. Sproul being dismissed as the teachings of men simply because some posters or moderators disagree with their biblical theology.

You may disagree to your hearts content, but I will not allow the faith of the Protestant Reformers and the Pilgrims to be silenced because YOU cannot see in scripture what they clearly saw.

The Heidelberg Catechism is probably the oldest Catechism for the Reformed faith and presents what “Calvinists” (like me) actually believe. If your intent was to actually ban Calvinism and Monergism to make Free Will and Synergism the official and exclusive position of this board, then issue a clear statement that this is an Arminian Only site.

A mans doctrine is only false if there is no scripture to support it. Just because someone, other than the prophets and Apostles, says believe me for this is truth they had better give full context of scripture to support that of what they speak. This is why it is so important to give the sources you use, which you seem to refuse to do.

I am the moderator in the other forum that was giving warnings that some choose to ignore as tempers were rising as it was turning into a I'm right your wrong stage match, but had nothing to do with contrasting Calvinism with the Doctrines of Christ as the topic was not about Calvinism vs Armenian.

If we are not teaching the doctrines of Christ then we are teaching the doctrines of man and what they believe. This is not a Calvinism forum, but a Christian forum where everyone can come in and express their views and opinions, but when heavy debates turn into division then they are no longer allowed to be discussed.

I am not banning any denomination as everyone is certainly allowed to believe what they want, but what we do ban is the bitter arguing that causes division as within this forum we are trying to bring unity among all who come here no matter what they want to believe.

 

[JLB]

[Genesis 6:5 NIV] 5 The LORD saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time.

• Did God lie in Genesis 6 and “every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart” is NOT only evil?

Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them, that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose.
And the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.” There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.
Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the Lord said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.” But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. Genesis 6:1-8

By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
Hebrews 11:7



JLB

 

[JLB]

I applaud everything here except for one small line ...

“Here is the choice each born again Christian must make, if they want to receive eternal life on the Day of Christ.”

I believe that Ephesians 2:1-10 places the walking in good works as our reasonable act of obedience because we HAVE eternal life rather than because we WANT eternal life. We are saved because God loves us and we are obedient because we love God.

Yes those who are “in Christ”, are joined to Him and are one spirit with Him, in which they are joined to the Spirit of Life “in Christ Jesus”.

Apart from Christ, we have no eternal life.

Jesus said we must remain “in Him”.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Here how we are instructed to remain “in Christ”.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John. 3:24



JLB

 

[JLB]

[Genesis 6:5 NIV] 5 The LORD saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time.

• Did God lie in Genesis 6 and “every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart” is NOT only evil?

[Genesis 8:21 NIV] 21 The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: "Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.

• Did God lie again in Genesis 8 when He reaffirmed that “every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood”?

[Job 14:4 NIV] 4 Who can bring what is pure from the impure? No one!

• Is Job 14 incorrect that people can bring what is pure from the impure?

[Isaiah 53:6 NIV] 6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to our own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

• Was Isaiah mistaken and not all have gone astray, so that God only had to lay the iniquity of SOME on ”him” (since the righteous have no need of a savior).

Just out of curiosity, what choice did Cain make?
Was he inclined towards evil or did he choose good?

Cain had to choose to do good, just like Able.


By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks. Hebrews 11:4



JLB

 

[JLB]

[Genesis 6:5 NIV] 5 The LORD saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time.

• Did God lie in Genesis 6 and “every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart” is NOT only evil?

[Genesis 8:21 NIV] 21 The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: "Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.

• Did God lie again in Genesis 8 when He reaffirmed that “every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood”?

[Job 14:4 NIV] 4 Who can bring what is pure from the impure? No one!

• Is Job 14 incorrect that people can bring what is pure from the impure?

[Isaiah 53:6 NIV] 6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to our own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

• Was Isaiah mistaken and not all have gone astray, so that God only had to lay the iniquity of SOME on ”him” (since the righteous have no need of a savior).

Just out of curiosity, what choice did Cain make?
Was he inclined towards evil or did he choose good?

What about Enoch, and Abraham, Issac and Jacob, and Joseph and Moses, Joshua and David and Jeremiah and on and on and on....


And what more shall I say? For the time would fail me to tell of Gideon and Barak and Samson and Jephthah, also of David and Samuel and the prophets: who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, became valiant in battle, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. Women received their dead raised to life again.
Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection. Still others had trial of mockings and scourgings, yes, and of chains and imprisonment. They were stoned, they were sawn in two, were tempted, were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented— of whom the world was not worthy. Hebrews 11:32-38


Let’s encourage each other to aspire to the righteous men and women of faith, and pattern our lives from the good examples they left for us, found in the scripture. We can also learn from their mistakes and take comfort in God who promises to bless those who obey Him.


Here is the the testimony of the Lord Himself, about Abraham -



Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”
Genesis 26:5




JLB

 

[PeterJens]

I applaud everything here except for one small line ...

“Here is the choice each born again Christian must make, if they want to receive eternal life on the Day of Christ.”

I believe that Ephesians 2:1-10 places the walking in good works as our reasonable act of obedience because we HAVE eternal life rather than because we WANT eternal life. We are saved because God loves us and we are obedient because we love God.

This is an interesting point. What is the reason we are able to be obedient? Paul says it like this

Rom 6:18
You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness

One could say this is very optimistic, ie the change though real in ones heart takes time to grow and its outworkings become fruit in ones life.
Jesus helps by saying if we let His word abide in us, this fruit will come, not because we choose but as a result of abiding. There is a promise here and a statement of reality.

John 15:5
"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

God declares that if we fail to abide in Him and His word we will be cut off.

John 15:1-2 I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.​

There clearly are believers who come to Christ, but bear nothing and then fade away. God has cut them off, taken them away.​

 

[atpollard]

There ws no moderator request for holding back another members name.

Please go back and read ToS #1.4

”There will be no more discussion about Calvinism” sounds like a moderator request not to focus on a distinctly Calvinist document (like the Westminster Confession of Faith or the Heidelberg Catechism or the London Confession). In response, I focused on key doctrines of faith that I believe and to present SCRIPTURE to support those points. Irrespective of what source I am paraphrasing, the Scripture presented either supports the point or does not.

ToS #1.4 does not seem applicable to a public source centuries old.

This is why it is so important to give the sources you use, which you seem to refuse to do.

Since you just requested my source, it seems premature to claim I am refusing to give it.

 

[atpollard]

Can you give us a link to the Heidelberg Catechism of 1563 that you paraphrased from so we can read your source.

Take your pick:

https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ACYBGNSqoTvECx5D96ln5xBXkYLxRGEYRw:1580346085533&source=hp&ei=5SoyXteTHoqW5wKznoWADw&q=heidelberg+catechism&oq=&gs_l=psy-ab.1.2.35i362i39l10.0.0..2945...2.0..0.0.0.......0......gws-wiz.....10.K0CditYb7zM

 

[JLB]

This is an interesting point. What is the reason we are able to be obedient? Paul says it like this

Rom 6:18
You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness

One could say this is very optimistic, ie the change though real in ones heart takes time to grow and its outworkings become fruit in ones life.
Jesus helps by saying if we let His word abide in us, this fruit will come, not because we choose but as a result of abiding. There is a promise here and a statement of reality

Very good discussion point, worthy of a thread.

Balancing one’s place as either a baby Christian or a seasoned father in the faith, or somewhere in between.


Very optimistic indeed. Paul is speaking from his level of maturity, as he prefaced his statement this way -


What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.
Romans 6:15-17


Paul being near the end of His life is speaking as a spiritual father to those who dwell in the capital of the Roman Empire, which was probably one of the most corrupt places on earth, to the Church at Rome.


Paul goes on to say...


I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.
For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. Romans 6:19-20

• For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.

Paul is urging them to do what they are capable of doing which is walking in dominion over the sin in their flesh, because they have the power of the Holy Spirit within them and are able.


I guess a discussion on how we present our members as slaves of righteousness might be good.



JLB

 

[PeterJens]

• What is your only comfort in life and in death?
• What must you know to live and die in the joy of this comfort?
• How do you come to know your misery?
• What does God’s law require of us?
• Can you live up to all this perfectly?
• Did God create people so wicked and perverse?
• Then where does this corrupt human nature come from?

But are we so corrupt that we are totally unable to do any good and inclined toward all evil?

1. Yes.

• [Genesis 6:5 NIV] 5 The LORD saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time.
• [Genesis 8:21 NIV] 21 The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: "Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.
• [Job 14:4 NIV] 4 Who can bring what is pure from the impure? No one!
• [Isaiah 53:6 NIV] 6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to our own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

2. Unless we are born again by the Spirit of God.

• [John 3:3-5 NIV] 3 Jesus replied, "Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again." 4 "How can someone be born when they are old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother's womb to be born!" 5 Jesus answered, "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

I have a problem with the declaration
But are we so corrupt that we are totally unable to do any good and inclined toward all evil?

All around the world love is expressed between two people. It is very real, though fallen and a shadow, it still exists. Many a book and film have pointed out the real issue. We believe ourselves innocent, only doing evil because of circumstance, but we imagine given the ideal situation we would actually be loving kind individuals.

So though we do good things they are tainted or destroyed in our lives by the evil and unresolved sin that dwells in our lives. Sin wars with us to give up, to let our impulses and inclinations take over, and dominate.

Jesus opens the door to this world, by stating even in ones lost state reaching out and giving to Gods people will not be ignored.

41 Anyone who receives a prophet because he is a prophet will receive a prophet's reward, and anyone who receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man will receive a righteous man's reward.
42 And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones because he is my disciple, I tell you the truth, he will certainly not lose his reward
Matt 10:41-42

The parable of the good samaritan, is God declaring a samaritan, an enemy of God, can still show the example of love to another, an Israelite.

The nature of mans corruption is face to face rebellion. As Isaiah found

5 "Woe to me!" I cried. "I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the LORD Almighty."
Isa 6:5

Face to face we cannot cope with God as sinners, we would rise up and rebel and be destroyed. It is just like the parable of the wedding feast, if we are not prepared, we will not stand. If you knew you had to survive under water for 10 minutes, but had no breathing equipment, you will not.

Equally when we are filled with the Holy Spirit we are purified, made Holy, whether we acknowledge it or not. For us not to be Holy, cleansed and purified, what is the point of repentance, confession and accepting forgiveness through the cross? If we are not purified, then how are our children deemed holy, worthy of grace and heaven?

This Holiness, works its way through us, our history, our behaviour patterns, our justifications, our standing, our hurts, our ability to respond in love or attack. So these words are spoken

14 But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil
Heb 5:14

God provides the cleansing, we provide the training and the walk.

 

[PeterJens]

God provides the foundation, we build upon it filled with His grace.

2 Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is--his good, pleasing and perfect will.
Rom 12:2

14 As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance.
15 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do;
16 for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy."
1 Peter 1:14-16

If a believer does not believe they have been purified and cleansed by the blood of the Lamb, that it is just a metaphor for covering up the sin and issues, without the power to transform and change, little wonder anything that says we are to walk the walk or stay on the narrow path, or go the straight way appears just mockery.

The Lord has always been the God of morality and walking in His ways

“Come, let us go up to the LORD’s mountain, to the temple of the God of Jacob, so he can teach us his requirements, and we can follow his standards.” For Zion will be the centre for moral instruction; the LORD will issue edicts from Jerusalem.
Isa 2:3

Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness
2 Tim 2:19

We are not people of the things we have repented of and left behind. But if we refuse to repent, then the corruption remains on us.

10 But each one should be careful how he builds.
11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,
13 his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work.
14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward.
1 Cor 3:11-14

We are not building sinful behaviour but righteousness and good deeds.
But if believers are not cleansed, again what they do is not righteous or good without taint.

 

[atpollard]

I have a problem with the declaration
But are we so corrupt that we are totally unable to do any good and inclined toward all evil?

I am having trouble following exactly what your problem is with the statement since you do not seem to have clearly attempted to refute any point. (I am not saying that you failed to refute the point, I am saying that I do not see where what you posted actually even attempts to disagree with any point.) I agree that people are capable of "selfish" or "tainted" acts of love.

• Do you believe that man is not corrupt?
• Do you disagree that we are unable to do any good?
• Do you disagree that we are inclined towards evil?

What part of that did you "have a problem with"?

[As an aside, if you go back to the question about "What must I know?", there were three things ... our Misery, our Deliverance and our Gratitude ... this is part of laying out "our misery". In other circles this would be called "telling people the bad new about their sin and God's Holiness" or "our problem" ... to be followed by the Good News of God's solution. Campus Crusade laid it out as God; Man; Jesus; Choose ... God is holy, men are sinful, Jesus died to fix it, and what are you going to do about it ... a memory tool to help 'evangelists' remember to tell the whole message.]

If your objection is "that is not the whole message" ... then I agree. Yet we must first see the need for a savior before we can appreciate just how great a savior we have.

 

[PeterJens]

I am having trouble following exactly what your problem is with the statement since you do not seem to have clearly attempted to refute any point. (I am not saying that you failed to refute the point, I am saying that I do not see where what you posted actually even attempts to disagree with any point.) I agree that people are capable of "selfish" or "tainted" acts of love.

• Do you believe that man is not corrupt?
• Do you disagree that we are unable to do any good?
• Do you disagree that we are inclined towards evil?

What part of that did you "have a problem with"?

[As an aside, if you go back to the question about "What must I know?", there were three things ... our Misery, our Deliverance and our Gratitude ... this is part of laying out "our misery". In other circles this would be called "telling people the bad new about their sin and God's Holiness" or "our problem" ... to be followed by the Good News of God's solution. Campus Crusade laid it out as God; Man; Jesus; Choose ... God is holy, men are sinful, Jesus died to fix it, and what are you going to do about it ... a memory tool to help 'evangelists' remember to tell the whole message.]

If your objection is "that is not the whole message" ... then I agree. Yet we must first see the need for a savior before we can appreciate just how great a savior we have.

I have had similar discussions with people in the past on this subject.
One illustration is was the good samaritan good in his action or not?
Can a believer do a good work and can a non-believer, unsaved do a good work?

If Jesus agreed the good samaritan do an action though tainted by his theology he would not have used this example.

If a non-believer is not acceptable to God, why did God speak like this to Cornelius

4 “Your prayers and your acts of charity have gone up as a memorial before God.
5 Now send men to Joppa and summon a man named Simon, who is called Peter.
6 This man is staying as a guest with a man named Simon, a tanner, whose house is by the sea.”
Acts 10:4-6

I would contend God cares for the lost and looks at their deeds and sends judgement on evil men and blessing good men. God regards certain people even as righteous.

5 During the reign of Herod king of Judea, there lived a priest named Zechariah who belonged to the priestly division of Abijah, and he had a wife named Elizabeth, who was a descendant of Aaron.
6 They were both righteous in the sight of God, following all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blamelessly.
Luke 1:5-6

Often such obvious statements in scripture cause people who hold corruption of the world is so bad there is nothing good a problem.