Protestant countries are richer and less safe, Orthodox countries are safer but less rich: discuss

[GodsGrace]

You don't seem to understand that the term "cultural Christian" is to define those who claim to be Christian but actually aren't. They think they're Christian simply because they were born into a Christian family, were baptized as an infant, had First Communion, read the Bible, said a "sinner's prayer," go to church, or some other such thing. But they have never actually repented and believed in Jesus and his atoning work alone for their salvation and made him Lord. The U.S. is full of such people, hence why many of them support current events.

A culturally Christian country STILL follows the moral values of Christianity.

Even Dawkins has stated that he likes cultural christianity.

The problem is that the US is no longer following EVEN cultural Christianity.

Not sure this is what the OP is alluding to.
(no time to read the entire thread - sorry).

 

[LanaPodesta]

I'm thinking of Dubvronik right now and Croatia in general

Croatia is Catholic.

Can't go through the entire post...but I fail to see your point

Didn't I make my point in the body of the post? Orthodox countries are poorer, yet safer, Protestant countries are the reverse. Why?

I mean, why are the Orthodox so much more serious about their faith?

Because the faith is LIVED. There's so many fasts, church attendance is extremely important, to take communion you have to go through a process including confession, and most importantly because contact with the divine changes one's heart. Protestants seem to focus on what they think they should do according to the Bible, as opposed to letting God empty them of their sin.

Why do you think Protestant countries are falling behind in this?

Protestants rely on individual interpretation of scripture, thus fostering a culture of individualism. One is expected to take care of oneself, and as be as independent as possible. Hence you will have successful entrepreneurs, but also homeless people. There are less of both in Orthodox countries.

 

[LanaPodesta]

The problem is that the US is no longer following EVEN cultural Christianity

The US is still culturally a Christian country, specifically Protestant. Are you American, and if so have you been to other countries?

 

[GodsGrace]

Croatia is Catholic.

Dubvronik seemed to be Orthodox to me.
The churches there are Orthodox.

Didn't I make my point in the body of the post? Orthodox countries are poorer, yet safer, Protestant countries are the reverse. Why?

I agreed with you and explained why.
If this was your only point, then, yes, I agree.

Because the faith is LIVED. There's so many fasts, church attendance is extremely important, to take communion you have to go through a process including confession, and most importantly because contact with the divine changes one's heart. Protestants seem to focus on what they think they should do according to the Bible, as opposed to letting God empty them of their sin.

Agreed.
But would you also agree that not everyone who attends an Orthodox church is a believer?
I see some young persons that attend because their parents have taught them to do so and because they obey their parents more than in the West.....the US for example and also Europe in general.

Tradition is very important and the young are taught to honor tranditions.
The West has lost this practice.
The young seem to be the ruling class....
and even the middle aged are acting like the young.

Protestants rely on individual interpretation of scripture, thus fostering a culture of individualism. One is expected to take care of oneself, and as be as independent as possible. Hence you will have successful entrepreneurs, but also homeless people. There are less of both in Orthodox countries.

I agree that Protestantism is becoming very individual and, as we can see from these Forums, there are many that call themselves Christian but then deny tenets that must be believed in order to be defined as Christian.

I fail to see the connection between faith and economic well-being.
I'd be interested in hearing more about WHY you think this is true....
Still thinking about whether or not it IS true.
On what do you base your assertion?

I do want to say that, yes, richer folk tend to be less religious.

 

[GodsGrace]

The US is still culturally a Christian country, specifically Protestant. Are you American, and if so have you been to other countries?

The US is no longer culturally Christian...
IF by culturally Christian we mean that Christian values are followed even by non-believers.
Definitely, the US is more Christian than certainly any country in Europe -if this is what you're comparing the US to.
I'm comparing it to how it USED TO BE.

I'm American.
Have travelled a lot.
Even to your country, more than once. (I checked where you're from before replying).

 

[LanaPodesta]

Dubvronik seemed to be Orthodox to me.
The churches there are Orthodox.

Dubrovnik is 90% Catholic.

But would you also agree that not everyone who attends an Orthodox church is a believer?

The Orthodox don't place so much emphasis on personal belief as Protestants do. Anyone, regardless of conscious belief, will strengthen their relationship with God by being in the presence of the rite.

I fail to see the connection between faith and economic well-being.
I'd be interested in hearing more about WHY you think this is true....

Multiple things, but I believe I've said? Individualism being the main one (drives economic progress, also drives crime and dysfunction). Another being innovation. The Orthodox Church is unchanged since the 1st Millennium. Thus innovation is taboo. Contrast to Protestantism that becomes increasingly more diverse and fragmented due to endless innovation.

Definitely, the US is more Christian than certainly any country in Europe

This is entirely untrue.

Country	% Identifying as Christian (approx.)
Romania	95%
Poland	87%
Portugal	81%
Italy	80%
Greece	90–95%
Croatia	86%
Moldova	90%+
Ukraine	80–85%

Whereas the US is only about 63% Christian. Of the list above, all countries are Orthodox with the exception of Italy, Croatia, Poland and Portugal, which are all Catholic. Georgia, which is a transcontinental country is around 90% Christian (Orthodox).

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

That's not the claim I made. Crime is LOWER in most Orthodox countries and HIGHER in Protestant one's. It is safer for kids to play at night in Greece than it is for them to play outside in the UK during the day.

What is your source for crime rates?

 

[GodsGrace]

Dubrovnik is 90% Catholic.

The Orthodox don't place so much emphasis on personal belief as Protestants do. Anyone, regardless of conscious belief, will strengthen their relationship with God by being in the presence of the rite.

A relationship with God means that one believes in God.
If one believe in God, then yes, any ritual will increase this relationship.
Especially for children....they seem to remember rituals more than even lessons (when at young ages).

Multiple things, but I believe I've said? Individualism being the main one (drives economic progress, also drives crime and dysfunction). Another being innovation. The Orthodox Church is unchanged since the 1st Millennium. Thus innovation is taboo. Contrast to Protestantism that becomes increasingly more diverse and fragmented due to endless innovation.

OK
But this doesn't explain why.
If only individualism is the reason, maybe.
How about the fact that it's easier in the US to open a business....
Easier both financially and socially. There's more networking in the US and this helps to form friendships and business acquaintences that help in establishing important businesses.

The fact that the US is a capitalist nation also will help with financial enterprises.
Socialism tends to suffocate ambition and motivation since it is not awarded.

This is entirely untrue.

Country	% Identifying as Christian (approx.)
Romania	95%
Poland	87%
Portugal	81%
Italy	80%
Greece	90–95%
Croatia	86%
Moldova	90%+
Ukraine	80–85%

Whereas the US is only about 63% Christian. Of the list above, all countries are Orthodox with the exception of Italy, Croatia, Poland and Portugal, which are all Catholic. Georgia, which is a transcontinental country is around 90% Christian (Orthodox).

You're saying that what is untrue is that I posted that the US is more Christian than Europe?
You're saying that EUROPE is more Christian than the US???

No ma'am.
THIS cannot be debated.
Europe is basically atheist.

Your list has basically Orthodox nations on it.
The Orthodox are not the only Christians, so I'm not sure what you're proving here.

I'm not speaking about persons IDENTIFYING as Christians....
I'm speaking about persons that ARE Christian.

For example, your list has Italy as 80% Christian.
Try this lanapodesta.....:
Italy is 80% atheist.

And, some countries are not on the list you've posted:
FRANCE
GERMANY
SWITZERLAND (which is downright pagan)
AUSTRIA
SPAIN
ENGLAND
SWEDEN
NORWAY

and many others.

Sometimes lists don't tell the whole story.

 

[hawkman]

The Protestant world may offer material ascent, but the Orthodox world may still offer something quietly essential: the spiritual memory of how to live well with others.

Material ascent is offered to all it seems . Orthodox too .

https://ocl.org/clergy-compensation-in-greek-orthodox-churches/

Clergy Compensation in Greek Orthodox Churches​

BOSTON – A newly-assigned priest who has just graduated from the Seminary should make an annual salary of $49,128 – $66,528 plus extras such as insurance, an automobile, a house (or an allowance for one) retirement contributions, seminars expenses, and many more. A priest with 35 years of ministry and more will earn $113,856 – $120,144, according to the Clergy Compensation Plan for 2012.

 

[jasonc]

I have no idea what your definition of a Christian country is. Easter and Christmas are big cultural events. There are churches everywhere. Please don't be pedantic and suggest it's not a Christian country.

Were you born in the UK or America?

Are you familiar with these in American history?

The trail of tears?
Into these hills, an oral story by the Cherokee telling of those that survived that.
The removal of the Seminole from Florida? Both were genocides by nature.

I'm hardly woke but it's history. My wife is Seminole. Grandchild is part Cherokee. I'm not. America isn't perfect. I can go into history of that and other things. Doesn't mean Christian churches didn't exist or people only that at times it was not and that is more often then not. See abortion.

Even before 1973 it was legal in many states.

Christmas? You mean the secular buying of gifts? In the puritan colonies, Christmas was banned. I would hardly call them lost. They started Yale and Harvard to teach the bible. Those started going south in the early 1900s.

I could go into how Raleigh ,and the explorers often were privateers and sacked other nations colonies.the Spanish sacked the French and British and vice versa

Fort Carloline, near St Augustine was sacked by the Spanish, those were Hugeunots.

Spain was Catholics and saw them as heretics .

 

[jasonc]

GodsGrace get away from parts of the cities and we'll pavo ga where I can leave a loaded gun unsecured and no one will steal it .if a neighbor finds one and knows it's mine he will return it .

my family has left cash in their car .can't do that even i. free Florida's capital. I'm minutes from the state capitol and posting this while waiting outside of a store for them to leave .

courtesy is not too common in my once small town .my grandchild can drive a side by side down town and courtesy is given. she couldn't do that in my hometown ,she would be ran off the road . cops would penalize her . Georgia area doesn't care .my town has that but it's regulated whereas Georgia isn't .

 

[GodsGrace]

GodsGrace get away from parts of the cities and we'll pavo ga where I can leave a loaded gun unsecured and no one will steal it .if a neighbor finds one and knows it's mine he will return it .

my family has left cash in their car .can't do that even i. free Florida's capital. I'm minutes from the state capitol and posting this while waiting outside of a store for them to leave .

courtesy is not too common in my once small town .my grandchild can drive a side by side down town and courtesy is given. she couldn't do that in my hometown ,she would be ran off the road . cops would penalize her . Georgia area doesn't care .my town has that but it's regulated whereas Georgia isn't .

Have you moved?
You have grandchildren?
Didn't know Jason.

I live in a good place too....
not as good as it used to be, but change is everywhere.
Just slower here.
People used to leave their car key in the car when incorrectly parked in case someone wanted to move it.
OK, this is not done anymore.
But it's still good.

Or maybe other places have gotten so bad that it good by comparison?
I'm not sure anymore.

And yes, people in small towns are nicer to each other.
5,000 population here.
My hometown used to be about 1,200 - now it's probably in the hundreds.
Young couples moving out to come here by me or even further down into "the world".

Good to hear from you!

 

[Free]

Sounds like a No True Scotsman according to your own narrow definition of what it is to be Christian. By your reasoning I'm probably not a Christian.

No, there is no No True Scotsman fallacy, and I'm making no judgements on whether or not you're a Christian. I'm not even sure how you got there from anything I said.

 

[jasonc]

Have you moved?
You have grandchildren?
Didn't know Jason.

I live in a good place too....
not as good as it used to be, but change is everywhere.
Just slower here.
People used to leave their car key in the car when incorrectly parked in case someone wanted to move it.
OK, this is not done anymore.
But it's still good.

Or maybe other places have gotten so bad that it good by comparison?
I'm not sure anymore.

And yes, people in small towns are nicer to each other.
5,000 population here.
My hometown used to be about 1,200 - now it's probably in the hundreds.
Young couples moving out to come here by me or even further down into "the world".

Good to hear from you!

Nope, visiting. Tallahasee is near Pavo, GA. It's less than an hour. Very old south. Florida as such is dying. The north area close to Alabama and not in the cities has retained it.

No snowbirds, no retirees. Just farmers, hunters. Poorer yes, but well that's another thread

 

[GodsGrace]

nope ,visiting . tallahasee is near pavo,ga .it's less then an hour . very old south .Florida as such is dying .the north area close to Alabama and not in the cities has retained it.

no snowbirds ,no retirees just farmers ,hunters . poorer yes,but well that's another thread

Yes. I know what you mean....
All depends on what a person is looking for.

 

[Eli1+]

LanaPodesta i just wanted to say that i enjoyed reading your posts here and God bless you.

 

[jasonc]

Yes. I know what you mean....
All depends on what a person is looking for.

honestly ,rural America is similar no matter what state . it's the cosmopolitans that are different .

imho

 

[LanaPodesta]

If one believe in God, then yes, any ritual will increase this relationship

No, the rite in itself will bring one closer to God. Otherwise are you saying the intellectually disabled cannot enjoy a relationship with God? Faith is participatory, not merely cognitive.

The fact that the US is a capitalist nation also will help with financial enterprises.

Again, due to individualism and innovation being emphasised.

No ma'am.
THIS cannot be debated.
Europe is basically atheist.

Nope. I just listed 8 Orthodox and Catholic countries with overwhelming Christian majorities, far above the 63% of the USA.

Europe is basically atheist.

No it isn't as I've proven with facts and figures. If you visit somewhere like Greece you'll see churches EVERYWHERE, priests walking down the street everyday, and every single shop and restaurant will have icons behind the till.

For example, your list has Italy as 80% Christian.
Try this lanapodesta.....:
Italy is 80% atheist.

No, it's 80% Catholic.

And, some countries are not on the list you've posted:
FRANCE
GERMANY
SWITZERLAND (which is downright pagan)
AUSTRIA
SPAIN
ENGLAND
SWEDEN
NORWAY

Why would they be? They're not more Christian than the US, so why would I?

 

[LanaPodesta]

LanaPodesta i just wanted to say that i enjoyed reading your posts here and God bless you.

Thank you so much x

 

[LanaPodesta]

Were you born in the UK or America?

Are you familiar with these in American history?

The trail of tears?
Into these hills, an oral story by the Cherokee telling of those that survived that.
The removal of the Seminole from Florida? Both were genocides by nature.

I'm hardly woke but it's history. My wife is Seminole. Grandchild is part Cherokee. I'm not. America isn't perfect. I can go into history of that and other things. Doesn't mean Christian churches didn't exist or people only that at times it was not and that is more often then not. See abortion.

Even before 1973 it was legal in many states.

Christmas? You mean the secular buying of gifts? In the puritan colonies, Christmas was banned. I would hardly call them lost. They started Yale and Harvard to teach the bible. Those started going south in the early 1900s.

I could go into how Raleigh ,and the explorers often were privateers and sacked other nations colonies.the Spanish sacked the French and British and vice versa

Fort Carloline, near St Augustine was sacked by the Spanish, those were Hugeunots.

Spain was Catholics and saw them as heretics .

I have no idea what your point is.