Protestant countries are richer and less safe, Orthodox countries are safer but less rich: discuss

[LanaPodesta]

Material ascent is offered to all it seems . Orthodox too .

https://ocl.org/clergy-compensation-in-greek-orthodox-churches/

Clergy Compensation in Greek Orthodox Churches​

BOSTON – A newly-assigned priest who has just graduated from the Seminary should make an annual salary of $49,128 – $66,528 plus extras such as insurance, an automobile, a house (or an allowance for one) retirement contributions, seminars expenses, and many more. A priest with 35 years of ministry and more will earn $113,856 – $120,144, according to the Clergy Compensation Plan for 2012.

I'm not sure what your point is. If anything it suggests how valued the priesthood is in Orthodox Countries.

 

[LanaPodesta]

No, there is no No True Scotsman fallacy, and I'm making no judgements on whether or not you're a Christian. I'm not even sure how you got there from anything I said.

Because you appear to have a very specific definition of Christian beyond "member of the Christian religion". I am sure that because of our theological differences, you might not consider me Christian.

 

[Hidden In Him]

No, it's 80% Catholic.

She's likely referring to this, Lana.

Elsewhere in deeply secular Western Europe, the “nones” — those rejecting organized religion — are growing fast. In Italy, long considered the cradle of the Catholic faith, most people retain a nominal affiliation, steeped in tradition but with little adherence to doctrine or practice.

According to the latest Pew Research Center survey, 78% of Italians profess to be Catholic. But the Italian statistics agency, ISTAT, says only 19% attend services at least weekly while 31% never attend.

Nearly 80% of Italians say they are Catholic. But few regularly go to church

In Italy, centuries-old churches dot the landscape, sanctuaries and processions draw crowds, and nearly 80% of the population profess themselves Catholic.

apnews.com

 

[LanaPodesta]

She's likely referring to this, Lana.

Elsewhere in deeply secular Western Europe, the “nones” — those rejecting organized religion — are growing fast. In Italy, long considered the cradle of the Catholic faith, most people retain a nominal affiliation, steeped in tradition but with little adherence to doctrine or practice.

According to the latest Pew Research Center survey, 78% of Italians profess to be Catholic. But the Italian statistics agency, ISTAT, says only 19% attend services at least weekly while 31% never attend.

Nearly 80% of Italians say they are Catholic. But few regularly go to church

In Italy, centuries-old churches dot the landscape, sanctuaries and processions draw crowds, and nearly 80% of the population profess themselves Catholic.

apnews.com

Okay? And the same likely applies to the States, yet with a smaller percentage. In relative terms, at least eight European countries are more Christian than the USA.

 

[Hidden In Him]

And the same likely applies to the States, yet with a smaller percentage. In relative terms, at least eight European countries are more Christian than the USA.

I think her point was that it can get exceedingly difficult defining what percentages of a particular nation are genuinely Christian and which ones aren't, which makes the whole premise harder to argue, let alone prove.

I'm not speaking about persons IDENTIFYING as Christians....
I'm speaking about persons that ARE Christian.

 

[GodsGrace]

No, the rite in itself will bring one closer to God. Otherwise are you saying the intellectually disabled cannot enjoy a relationship with God? Faith is participatory, not merely cognitive.

I said nothing about intellectually disabled persons and I don't even know what you mean.
Are the intellectually disabled all going to hell?

IF a person DOES NOT BELIEVE in God....
the ritual seems silly.

IF a person has the tendency to believe, or DOES believe, then the ritual could have actual meaning.

In any case, the ritual will be REMEMBERED and will contribute to the decision of the person, at some time in their life, to decide to serve God.

Again, due to individualism and innovation being emphasised.

Yes. It's an element of course.

Nope. I just listed 8 Orthodox and Catholic countries with overwhelming Christian majorities, far above the 63% of the USA.

No it isn't as I've proven with facts and figures. If you visit somewhere like Greece you'll see churches EVERYWHERE, priests walking down the street everyday, and every single shop and restaurant will have icons behind the till.

No, it's 80% Catholic.

LOL
I'm not going to argue the above.
Is water wet?

If you want to believe that Europe is Christian....
so be it.

Europe is ATHEIST and becoming more and more so.
By this I mean that not only does it NOT believe in God ....
but is actually accepting ungodly behavior....
Everything goes.

And I don't need your statistics to know this.
Excuse me.

How's London doing??
Is the rest of England Christian?
Rhetorical questions of course.

Why would they be? They're not more Christian than the US, so why would I?

I posted many nations that are not Christian which were not on your list.
So, why would they be WHAT??

And you're stating that the nations I listed are not anymore Christian than the US?

Lanapodesta...
you need to study up a bit more on what you're posting about.

 

[LanaPodesta]

what percentages of a particular nation are genuinely Christian and which ones aren't

No True Scotsman. So let's stick with the facts otherwise this will become reductive.

 

[GodsGrace]

Okay? And the same likely applies to the States, yet with a smaller percentage. In relative terms, at least eight European countries are more Christian than the USA.

No Lana
The US, at least for now, IS a Christian country.
Italy is an atheist country,,,as is England and almost every other country in Europe.

Please do not compare Italy to the US where Catholics practice their religion as do Protestants.

Of course it depends on what you mean by Christian.
Checking off a box in a list does not make one a Christian.

Are these people believers?
Do they just belong to the denomination they ticked off?
Does it mean anything to them?
Do they practice what their denomination teaches?

When you say a country is Christian....most on the thread will understand you to mean that
they PRACTICE their religion.

 

[LanaPodesta]

IF a person DOES NOT BELIEVE in God....
the ritual seems silly.

You don't have to believe in the medicine for it to work. Please be careful about referring to the rite as 'silly'.

I said nothing about intellectually disabled persons and I don't even know what you mean

The intellectually disabled aren't going to be as capable at reading or interpreting the Bible, but they can have as much of a relationship with God as anyone.

In any case, the ritual will be REMEMBERED and will contribute to the decision of the person, at some time in their life, to decide to serve God.

No. It's the rite that brings the person, any person, closer to God regardless of any intellectual decision.

Europe is ATHEIST and becoming more and more so

Atheism is common, particularly in Western. However I listed many countries in which that is not the case, and the overwhelming majority of people ARE Christian.

How's London doing??
Is the rest of England Christian?

Less than 50% Christian. Hence why I didn't list the United Kingdom.

I posted many nations that are not Christian which were not on your list.
So, why would they be WHAT??

Why would they be on the list? I was listing majority Christian countries. Could I recommend going back and reading our conversation so you better understand?

And you're stating that the nations I listed are not anymore Christian than the US?

Yes I agree the nations you listed are less Christian than the US.

 

[LanaPodesta]

Italy is an atheist country,,,as is England and almost every other country in Europe

No. I've given you statistical facts and figures and either you

1) Arbitrarily deny them

2) Make a No True Scotsman about who is a 'real' Christian or not

Some countries in Europe are majority Christian, some aren't.

 

[GodsGrace]

I think her point was that it can get exceedingly difficult defining what percentages of a particular nation are genuinely Christian and which ones aren't, which makes the whole premise harder to argue, let alone prove.

Correct.
Because persons check off a box, and many will check off that box, does not determine whether or not a country is Christian.

Here in Italy, for example, 90% of persons, when asked what religion they are will say Catholic.
Or, if asked if they are Catholic, will reply YES.

But in reality they are NOT Catholic because they do not believe.

Church attendance is becoming worse and worse and the CC doesn't really know what to do about this.
They trying different approaches.
What they should be doing is what the Apostles did...not fear preaching Jesus and what He taught.
By fearing loss of laity by doing this...they are actually losing more and more persons.

This is true for almost every country in Europe. France and Germany leading the pack.

 

[LanaPodesta]

This is true for almost every country in Europe

No it isn't, as I've proven to you. Anyway, we're getting away from the point.

 

[GodsGrace]

You don't have to believe in the medicine for it to work. Please be careful about referring to the rite as 'silly'.

I didn't say the rite is silly.
Please read my posts carefully.

The intellectually disabled aren't going to be as capable at reading or interpreting the Bible, but they can have as much of a relationship with God as anyone.

Agreed.

No. It's the rite that brings the person, any person, closer to God regardless of any intellectual decision.

I don't understand this.
You mean that if I get baptized....
even if I do NOT believe God even exists....
I will still be going to heaven when I die?

Atheism is common, particularly in Western. However I listed many countries in which that is not the case, and the overwhelming majority of people ARE Christian.

OK.
You're agreeing that atheism is common in the West.
This has been my point.

Less than 50% Christian. Hence why I didn't list the United Kingdom.

You think England, and London in particular, is 50% Christian??

Could you define what you mean by Christian?

Why would they be on the list? I was listing majority Christian countries. Could I recommend going back and reading our conversation so you better understand?

No. I wont' be going back to read because a thread is on-going and different topics may come up.
It's up to YOU to keep the discussion on track and keep it to what YOU want to discuss.
I didn't understand what you were asking me,,,and you're not replying above, so let's just drop it.

Yes I agree the nations you listed are less Christian than the US.

OK.
And this is because Europe is not Christian and the US is....
although less than it used to be.

 

[GodsGrace]

No it isn't, as I've proven to you. Anyway, we're getting away from the point.

You're saying that there are as many Christians in France and Germany as there were in the 1950's?

And what is the point?
I've lost track of the point you're trying to make.

 

[GodsGrace]

No. I've given you statistical facts and figures and either you

1) Arbitrarily deny them

2) Make a No True Scotsman about who is a 'real' Christian or not

Some countries in Europe are majority Christian, some aren't.

Or,,,,,You don't accept what it means to be Christian.
It's not just a label.

Your statistics don't really interest me.
I live here.
You live here.

You shouldn't need statistics to know what's going on in Europe.
Are you aware that London is becoming more and more muslim?
Are you aware that at this rate, England will be practicing the Islamic religion
within the next few decades...or even before that at this rate.

I can't think of ONE Christian country in Europe.
Which country do YOU think is Christian?
(there might be one...that's why I'm careful to say "almost" all countries are atheist)

Again, what does Christian mean to you?

And could you please explain what a True Scotsman is?

 

[LanaPodesta]

I don't understand this.
You mean that if I get baptized....
even if I do NOT believe God even exists....
I will still be going to heaven when I die?

I was referring to the rite performed during church services. But we can talk about baptism, sure. Anything, for example baptism, endows you with God's divine energies and this will bring you closer to Him. Same with praying, reading scripture, fasting, veneration of icons. Regarding the rite during church...why else would one go to church? It's to experience God's divine energies.

OK.
You're agreeing that atheism is common in the West.
This has been my point.

Yes, but a good deal of the countries I listed are NOT Western.

You think England, and London in particular, is 50% Christian??

No? In my quote you provided I said the United Kingdom is LESS than 50% Christian. Why did you post my quote only to refuse to read it?

No. I wont' be going back to read because a thread is on-going and different topics may come up.
It's up to YOU to keep the discussion on track and keep it to what YOU want to discuss.
I didn't understand what you were asking me,,,and you're not replying above, so let's just drop it.

You asked me why certain Western European countries weren't on the list. That was because they not majority Christian nations, and I was listing majority Christian nations. I have been extremely patient with you but if you're going to be deliberately ignorant and not even take the time and effort to read what I post correctly then I see no reason to engage with you further.

And this is because Europe is not Christian and the US is....

No. There are many nations in Europe that are more Christian than the US is and I tire of repeating myself when it comes to the matter.

 

[LanaPodesta]

You're saying that there are as many Christians in France and Germany as there were in the 1950's?

At no point have I said that. Either you are not reading what I'm saying or you're being deliberately disingenuous

You shouldn't need statistics to know what's going on in Europe.
Are you aware that London is becoming more and more muslim?
Are you aware that at this rate, England will be practicing the Islamic religion
within the next few decades...or even before that at this rate.

I'm aware of this. Doesn't refute anything I've said.

I can't think of ONE Christian country in Europe.
Which country do YOU think is Christian?

Georgia, for example. (there are countless others)

And could you please explain what a True Scotsman is?

The "no true Scotsman" fallacy is an informal fallacy where someone defends a universal claim by arbitrarily redefining the terms to exclude counterexamples.

 

[LanaPodesta]

Your statistics don't really interest me.
I live here.
You live here.

You live in the UK too? Okay. If you're not interested in statistics what's the point? Also, I've claimed the UK is less than 50% Christian...so I'm not sure your point regarding that either?

 

[GodsGrace]

I was referring to the rite performed during church services. But we can talk about baptism, sure. Anything, for example baptism, endows you with God's divine energies and this will bring you closer to Him. Same with praying, reading scripture, fasting, veneration of icons. Regarding the rite during church...why else would one go to church? It's to experience God's divine energies.

Why would one go to church otherwise?
Because it's the family custom.
Because they want to be seen by others.
It's good if they have a business in the town.
Maybe they have new clothes to show off.

There are many reasons why persons USED to go to church.
THIS is changing.
They don't even care anymore.
The Catholic churches here in Italy are EMPTY...
except for when they Mass is on TV and a Bishop shows up...
then they're full.

I've already asked you about baptism.

Do you believe that if a person gets baptized,,,
and they do not believe...
they will go to heaven?

Yes, but a good deal of the countries I listed are NOT Western.

So you're interested only in the Orthodox faith?
I did say in my early post that I agree that Orthodox countries retain their religion
more than others.

No? In my quote you provided I said the United Kingdom is LESS than 50% Christian. Why did you post my quote only to refuse to read it?

I replied to your statement.
I said that it's MUCH LESS than 50% Christian.
I'm saying that England and London are NOT Christian....
and becoming worse all the time.
The Episcopalian church allows women priests and marries SScouples
and does not allow one to become a priest there unless he, or she, agrees to this.
(of course).

What's going on with grooming?
Why aren't families being protected?
Even AFTER someone has been denounced.
Why are the, mainly, Pakistani's being protected against your very own people?

Let's not go to far off your topic.

You asked me why certain Western European countries weren't on the list. That was because they not majority Christian nations, and I was listing majority Christian nations. I have been extremely patient with you but if you're going to be deliberately ignorant and not even take the time and effort to read what I post correctly then I see no reason to engage with you further.

Ignorant means a person doesn't know about a topic.
You think I don't know what's going on in Europe?

Do you wish to discuss only the Orthodox faith?
Then this should be made plain and I'm sorry if I've misunderstood...
I should have been corrected immediately.

No. There are many nations in Europe that are more Christian than the US is and I tire of repeating myself when it comes to the matter.

You mean ORTHODOX countries?

If you mean CHRISTIAN countries then I do not agree.
Please make this clear.

 

[GodsGrace]

You live in the UK too? Okay. If you're not interested in statistics what's the point? Also, I've claimed the UK is less than 50% Christian...so I'm not sure your point regarding that either?

Your statistics DO NOT reflect the reality.

I'm referring to CHRISTIAN countries in your statistics ... in Europe.