I'm sorry friend, but you're incorrect in that statement. I have God's word telling me of the crucifixion and I have God's word telling me that He is going to restore Isreal by calling them out of seven specific nations and the islands of the sea. I don't know why you are denying this statement. You posted the particular Scripture reference in your own post.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join Hidden in Him and For His Glory for discussions on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/become-a-vessel-of-honor-part-2.112306/
We are at the end, Iran and Israel war.
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Please tell me you're not actually denying the crucifixion of Jesus as a literal, historical event... Or are you just saying that to make a point, badly? The gospels are eye-witness testimony to the crucifixion (and resurrection) of Jesus.
Maybe you should just directly answer miamited 's question directly rather than with such rhetoric.
Ezrider---- you have a fixation on modern day Israel NOT being the nation Israel reborn. You have already stated before that you think Satan was ALREADY chained for 1000 years which is completely unscriptural. I do not base my faith on the Nation of Israel. I put my faith in Jesus Christ and what he did on the cross for us. Whether I believe one way or the other about who the Nation Israel is right now has nothing to do with my salvation.
I look at Israel through the lense of Prophecy. I must repeat something again which in no way could be "coincidence". The DEAD SEA SCROLLS were discovered in 1947---hidden in caves for 2000 years. Why hadn't ANYONE ever stumbled upon these scrolls before? (they were found in MANY caves). A boy threw a stone and heard a jar break in the cave. GOD kept these scrolls hidden until HE WANTED THEM FOUND! These scrolls literally prove that God has preserved HIS WORD for 2000 years.
One year later in 1948 the Nation Israel was reborn. The Jewish people had been dispersed for 2000 years also. So, in 1947 God's Word was confirmed to be preserved, and in 1948 God proved HIS PEOPLE had been PRESERVED also. This is no coincidence my friend. This is the very hand of God at work.
But as I said you are "fixated" on saying that Israel is NOT God's people---the nation is SATANIC according to you. You are VERY wrong. Israel being on the map is a MIRACLE OF GOD. They are not perfect. They are in unbelief right now. But in the near future THEY WILL TURN TO THE MESSIAH and mourn and cry for not having believed he came the first time. It is all in Prophecy--you can be willfully blind and deny it----but it is clearly there.
ezrider
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No. If I was to deny the crucifixion, then why would I say Isa 11:11 was fulfilled at the cross?
I am sorry, but you asked for EVIDENCE. I can provide you with no evidence. I was not there 2000 years ago to witness his death nor his resurrection, nor were you or anyone else alive in this generation can provide any evidence. Somehow you think the book itself is evidence concerning the story found in that very book. No evidence doesn't work that way; accusing someone of theft is only but an accusation unless physical evidence is presented that would confirm that said accusation.
As Christians we accept the story of the birth of Jesus and the death and resurrection of Christ as we find written in the scripture through Faith, not as Thomas who doubted and needed to touch. As Christians we are called to walk by Faith and not according to the rudiments of this world. The just shall live by faith..
But, for the modern state called Israel it is not so. The modern state called Israel is the physical Evidence presented to us, it requires no faith. For most of us born in these last few generations, the modern state called Israel is a reality, and with that reality theologies and doctrines of men have been developed from the scriptures trying to explain this very reality that we were born into, and it becomes a belief reenforced by the reality. A reality that causes us to search the scriptures looking for the state of Israel to justify her modern existence. A reality that causes us to see the scriptures in light of the rudiments of this world, focusing on the "chosen people" in the modern state called Israel rather than focusing on the things of Christ.
Jesus said my kingdom is not of this world; The modern state called Israel is a rudiment of this world. To which do you seek after?
Colossians 2:8
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
2 Corinthians 5:17-19
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Isaiah 11:11
And it shall come to pass in that day,
that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time
to recover the remnant of his people,
which shall be left, from Assyria,
and from Egypt, and from Pathros,
and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar,
and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
Niblo
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No.
The overwhelming majority of NT scholars are in agreement that the gospels were written by anonymous authors, decades after the events they portray. Most certainly, they are not eyewitness accounts.
The gospels were first mentioned – in Christian literature – sometime around 120 CE–150 CE. Justin Martyr – a Christian apologist – refers to them as ‘Memoirs of the Apostles.’ (‘First Apology’ – 155 CE; and ‘Dialogue With Trypho’ – 160 CE). It was not until 180 CE – or thereabouts – that names were attached to these works. The person responsible for this deception was Irenaeus, the Bishop of Lyon.
The gospel attributed to Mark was the first to be written. This was sometime after 70 CE – and perhaps even later.
This gospel became the foundation of both Matthew (its author plagiarised some 90% of Mark) and of Luke (its author plagiarised around 50% of Mark).
There is no doubt that the Gospel accounts are intended – not to portray the truth – but to portray the Jewish religious leaders as stereotypical villains.
Robert M. Price – an American New Testament scholar – writes:
‘Many see the difficulties with the Sanhedrin trial as so insuperable that they erase all Jewish involvement from the record, placing the whole initiative and responsibility on the shoulders of the Romans. But isn't the Pilate story even more outrageous? Why retain it as evidence of any Roman involvement at all? It is a tenuous link.’ (‘Incredible Shrinking Son of Man: How Reliable Is the Gospel Tradition?’).
The Gospel authors portray Pilate as something of a wimp, a pushover, eager to placate the Jewish priests.
In truth, Pilate was an arrogant, ruthless despot; described by Philo of Alexandria as ‘naturally inflexible and stubbornly relentless’; a man who committed ‘acts of corruption, insults, rapine, outrages on the people, arrogance, repeated murders of innocent victims, and constant and most galling savagery.’ (‘Legatio ad Gaium’).
Josephus describes Pilate as ‘extremely offensive, cruel and corrupt.’ (Quoted in ‘Eerdmans Dictionary of the Bible; David Noel Freedman – editor’).
Josephus records one particular incident, when soldiers – disguised in local dress and armed with daggers – slipped into a crowd of protestors and, on Pilate’s signal, killed a ‘great number’, including innocent bystanders. (‘Antiquities, Vol. 18.2’).
When Pilate was finally recalled to Rome (in 36 C.E.) it was not because of any reluctance to kill his master’s enemies. No. It was for the slaughter of a procession of Samaritan pilgrims on their way to the sacred Mount Gerizim. (‘The Trial and Death of Jesus’).
The Gospel authors have the Jewish priests waste no time in telling Pilate how to do his job; going so far as to threaten him (John 19:12).
Justice Haim Cohn – one-time Attorney-General of Israel and later Justice of the Israeli Supreme Court - writes:
‘Any Jew who dared to remind the governor of his duty toward the emperor, or to hint at more fervid patriotism would not be let live another hour.’ (‘The Trial and Death of Jesus’).
Justice Cohn drawers our attention to other flaws in the story:
That the Jews brought Yeshua to Pilate for execution, on the pretext that: ‘It (was) not lawful for (them) to put any man to death” (John 18:31) – this pretext is untrue.
That there was a need to investigate Yeshua’s alleged behaviour (by means of a ‘pre-trial’) before turning him over to the Romans. Cohn notes: ‘There is not a single instance recorded anywhere of the Great or Small Sanhedrin ever acting as an investigatory agent of the Romans.’
That Jews entering the Praetorium would be defiled (John 18:28). Cohn assures us that: ‘Nothing in Jewish law or ritual, however, would support the contention that by entering the king’s – or anybody’s – place or a courtroom a Jew could become unpure.’
By the way, the Sanhedrin would not have asked Pilate to crucify Yeshua. They would have asked for death by stoning, as the Taurat required (‘Mishnah Sanhedrin 6:4h and i’).
Even before Paul – and certainly before the Gospels – there were Christian groups who believed that Yeshua had nothing to do with dying on a cross, or with being resurrected. The ‘Gospel of Thomas’, for example, makes no reference to either event.
The anonymous author of ‘John’ most certainly knew of these Thomasines, since he targets them with the following – very well known – ‘Doubting Thomas’ pericope:
‘Thomas, called the Twin, who was one of the Twelve, was not with them when Jesus came. So the other disciples said to him, 'We have seen the Lord,' but he answered, 'Unless I can see the holes that the nails made in his hands and can put my finger into the holes they made, and unless I can put my hand into his side, I refuse to believe.'
‘Eight days later the disciples were in the house again and Thomas was with them. The doors were closed, but Jesus came in and stood among them. 'Peace be with you,' he said. Then he spoke to Thomas, 'Put your finger here; look, here are my hands. Give me your hand; put it into my side. Do not be unbelieving any more but believe.' Thomas replied, 'My Lord and my God! Jesus said to him: You believe because you can see me. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe.’ (Jn: 20: 24-29).
This pericope, of course, is pure propaganda; a fiction, created for theological purposes.
And what of Barabbas?
As you know, Barabbas is said to have been freed by Pilate – who’s custom (it is claimed) was to release, in honour of the Jewish Passover festival, a prisoner guilty of a capital crime.
This is risible nonsense!
There is no evidence – none at all – that the so-called ‘Privilegium Paschale’ was a custom for either the Jews or the Romans.
Continued:
Niblo
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Concerning the crucifixion narratives:
These narratives have been fabricated by the simple process of scriptural eisegesis – the process of introducing into a text one's own presuppositions, agendas, or biases.
Let’s have a look at some examples:
First:
Yeshua is nailed to a cross. This notion is based on a specific interpretation of Ps 22:16: ‘For dogs surround me; a band of evil men encircles me; they have pierced my hands and feet.’
It is worth noting that the Masoretic text has Psalmist say: ‘For dogs have encompassed me; a company of evildoers have enclosed me; like a lion they are at my hands and my feet.’ – my emphasis.
The ‘New Jerusalem Bible (Standard Edition)’ has: ‘A pack of dogs surrounds me, a gang of villains closing in on me as if to hack off my hands and my feet.’ – my emphasis.
An earlier version of the ‘Jerusalem Bible’ has: ‘A pack of dogs surrounds me, a gang of villains closes me in; they tie me hand and foot.’ – my emphasis.
The ‘Douay-Rheims Bible’ has: ‘For many dogs have encompassed me: the council of the malignant hath besieged me. They have dug my hands and feet.’ – my emphasis.
A detailed examination of this particular text lies outside the scope of this thread; suffice it to say that the crucial word is ‘ka'ari’; which means lion; like a lion; as a lion; and so on. In verses 12-13 and 20-21 the word is translated correctly. Had the Psalmist wished to declare that his hands and feet had been pierced he would not have used the word ‘ka'ari’ at all; rather, he would have used either ‘daqar’ or ‘ratza’. These are the Hebrew words used for pierce or pierced.
Second:
Yeshua’s garments are divided. This is taken directly from Ps 22:18: ‘They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.’
Third:
Yeshua is subjected to mockery. This is taken from Ps 22:7: ‘All who see me mock me; they sneer and shake their heads.’
Fourth:
Yeshua is then mocked by priests. They call on him to come down from the cross, so that they may see and believe (Mark 15:32). This is taken from Ps 22:8: ‘He trusts in the LORD, let the LORD deliver him; let the LORD rescue him, since He delights in him.’
Matthew adds to this mockery: ‘He trusts in God; let God deliver him now, if he desires him; for he said, `I am the son of God.’ (Matthew 27:43).
This wee snippet is taken – not from personal memory – but from a truncated interpretation of Wisdom 2:12-20:
‘………………………. For if the upright man is God's son, God will help him and rescue him from the clutches of his enemies. Let us test him with cruelty and with torture, and thus explore this gentleness of his and put his patience to the test. Let us condemn him to a shameful death since God will rescue him – or so he claims.'
Finally:
We have Yeshua’s alleged final words – a cry of dereliction, ‘My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?’
This, of course, is the opening line of Ps. 22; a fact that neither Mark nor Matthew acknowledge.
Both Mark and Matthew carefully avoid the remainder of that verse; and the one that follows after: ‘Why are You so far from saving me, so far from my words of groaning? I cry out by day, O my God, but You do not answer, and by night, but I have no rest.’ – my emphasis.
According to the gospels, Yeshua spent around six hours on the cross; and yet the Psalmist cries out by day and by night. How can this be the crucified Messiah?
Luke – for his own reasons – decides to change Yeshua’s final words, making him say: ‘Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.’ (Luke 23:46). This is taken from Ps. 31:5: ‘Into Your hands I commit my spirit.’
John – who portrays a far more robust Yeshua than does the Synoptists – has him say a simple ‘It is finished!’
Robert M. Price writes:
‘Because he will not allow that terrible cry of dereliction from the cross, John has had to invent another speech that will bring the wine on the sponge, and he too goes to Septuagint Psalm 69:21: "They ... made me drink vinegar (oxos) for my thirst," changing the last words into direct discourse (dipsan, "thirst," to Dipso, "I thirst).
‘But why change "sponge on the end of. a cane (kalamo)" to a "sponge on hyssop (hussopo)?" I would suggest that the marjoram or hyssop comes not only from the Psalms but also is a way for John to introduce more Paschal symbolism into the crucifixion. Remember that the first phrase uttered about Jesus in the Fourth Gospel is the Baptist's "Behold the lamb of God" (1:29), and that John presents Jesus dying even as the Passover lambs were being slaughtered in Jerusalem.
‘According to Exodus, hyssop (marjoram) was to be used for sprinkling the blood of the Paschal lamb on the doorposts and lintels of Hebrew homes (12:21); thus, the touching of Jesus with hyssop becomes the symbolic reenactment of the Passover ritual upon his own person.’ (‘Killing History: Jesus In The No-Spin Zone.’).
In conclusion:
Robert Price writes:
‘What are we to make of this very strange circumstance, that no memory of the central saving event of the Christian religion survived, that when someone first ventured to tell the story of the crucifixion of the Savior, the only building blocks available for the task were various Scripture texts?’ (‘The Incredible Shrinking Son of Man – How Reliable Is the Gospel Tradition?’)
Blessings.
These narratives have been fabricated by the simple process of scriptural eisegesis – the process of introducing into a text one's own presuppositions, agendas, or biases.
Let’s have a look at some examples:
First:
Yeshua is nailed to a cross. This notion is based on a specific interpretation of Ps 22:16: ‘For dogs surround me; a band of evil men encircles me; they have pierced my hands and feet.’
It is worth noting that the Masoretic text has Psalmist say: ‘For dogs have encompassed me; a company of evildoers have enclosed me; like a lion they are at my hands and my feet.’ – my emphasis.
The ‘New Jerusalem Bible (Standard Edition)’ has: ‘A pack of dogs surrounds me, a gang of villains closing in on me as if to hack off my hands and my feet.’ – my emphasis.
An earlier version of the ‘Jerusalem Bible’ has: ‘A pack of dogs surrounds me, a gang of villains closes me in; they tie me hand and foot.’ – my emphasis.
The ‘Douay-Rheims Bible’ has: ‘For many dogs have encompassed me: the council of the malignant hath besieged me. They have dug my hands and feet.’ – my emphasis.
A detailed examination of this particular text lies outside the scope of this thread; suffice it to say that the crucial word is ‘ka'ari’; which means lion; like a lion; as a lion; and so on. In verses 12-13 and 20-21 the word is translated correctly. Had the Psalmist wished to declare that his hands and feet had been pierced he would not have used the word ‘ka'ari’ at all; rather, he would have used either ‘daqar’ or ‘ratza’. These are the Hebrew words used for pierce or pierced.
Second:
Yeshua’s garments are divided. This is taken directly from Ps 22:18: ‘They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.’
Third:
Yeshua is subjected to mockery. This is taken from Ps 22:7: ‘All who see me mock me; they sneer and shake their heads.’
Fourth:
Yeshua is then mocked by priests. They call on him to come down from the cross, so that they may see and believe (Mark 15:32). This is taken from Ps 22:8: ‘He trusts in the LORD, let the LORD deliver him; let the LORD rescue him, since He delights in him.’
Matthew adds to this mockery: ‘He trusts in God; let God deliver him now, if he desires him; for he said, `I am the son of God.’ (Matthew 27:43).
This wee snippet is taken – not from personal memory – but from a truncated interpretation of Wisdom 2:12-20:
‘………………………. For if the upright man is God's son, God will help him and rescue him from the clutches of his enemies. Let us test him with cruelty and with torture, and thus explore this gentleness of his and put his patience to the test. Let us condemn him to a shameful death since God will rescue him – or so he claims.'
Finally:
We have Yeshua’s alleged final words – a cry of dereliction, ‘My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?’
This, of course, is the opening line of Ps. 22; a fact that neither Mark nor Matthew acknowledge.
Both Mark and Matthew carefully avoid the remainder of that verse; and the one that follows after: ‘Why are You so far from saving me, so far from my words of groaning? I cry out by day, O my God, but You do not answer, and by night, but I have no rest.’ – my emphasis.
According to the gospels, Yeshua spent around six hours on the cross; and yet the Psalmist cries out by day and by night. How can this be the crucified Messiah?
Luke – for his own reasons – decides to change Yeshua’s final words, making him say: ‘Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.’ (Luke 23:46). This is taken from Ps. 31:5: ‘Into Your hands I commit my spirit.’
John – who portrays a far more robust Yeshua than does the Synoptists – has him say a simple ‘It is finished!’
Robert M. Price writes:
‘Because he will not allow that terrible cry of dereliction from the cross, John has had to invent another speech that will bring the wine on the sponge, and he too goes to Septuagint Psalm 69:21: "They ... made me drink vinegar (oxos) for my thirst," changing the last words into direct discourse (dipsan, "thirst," to Dipso, "I thirst).
‘But why change "sponge on the end of. a cane (kalamo)" to a "sponge on hyssop (hussopo)?" I would suggest that the marjoram or hyssop comes not only from the Psalms but also is a way for John to introduce more Paschal symbolism into the crucifixion. Remember that the first phrase uttered about Jesus in the Fourth Gospel is the Baptist's "Behold the lamb of God" (1:29), and that John presents Jesus dying even as the Passover lambs were being slaughtered in Jerusalem.
‘According to Exodus, hyssop (marjoram) was to be used for sprinkling the blood of the Paschal lamb on the doorposts and lintels of Hebrew homes (12:21); thus, the touching of Jesus with hyssop becomes the symbolic reenactment of the Passover ritual upon his own person.’ (‘Killing History: Jesus In The No-Spin Zone.’).
In conclusion:
Robert Price writes:
‘What are we to make of this very strange circumstance, that no memory of the central saving event of the Christian religion survived, that when someone first ventured to tell the story of the crucifixion of the Savior, the only building blocks available for the task were various Scripture texts?’ (‘The Incredible Shrinking Son of Man – How Reliable Is the Gospel Tradition?’)
Blessings.
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Yes, which you seem to have so badly missed is exactly my point. The only evidence you have that Jesus was crucified in Jerusalem is the exact same evidence that I have that Israel will be made into a nation again when God calls them from the seven nations specifically mentioned and the islands of the sea. I'm sorry that you missed the point, but that is as it is.
Now, what evidence do you have that what the Scriptures have told us about Israel being gathered from those seven specific nations and the islands of the sea at some time previous to our day in the historical record. You see, that's what I'm asking you for. What evidence do you have that the prophecy we are speaking of having already happened? Do you have some historical note that Jews returned to Israel at some time in the past from the seven specific nations mentioned and the islands of the sea?
And yes, I agree that your response that I don't have any evidence of the crucifixion in any way responds to my question concerning the recovering of Israel from some seven specific named nations and the islands of the sea. So maybe, as Fish153 has responded, you can just answer my question with some evidentiary material to support your understanding that yes, say, uh, in 962A.D. we have an historical record when Israel was gathered back to its place along the western Mediterranean shore from the nations and the islands of the seas. As far as I'm aware, the last regathering of God's people to Israel happened when they were taken by Babylon, that's one nation, and a decree was given unto them by Xerxes to go back and rebuild their land. That was one nation where the Jews had been taken that allowed them to go back to Israel. What have you got, my friend?
ezrider
Member
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Again, the scripture does not say he gather them and bring them into a land, it said he would redeem them from the lands that he had driven them. He set out a second time to redeem them, and their redemption is found in Christ and the cross. I already gave you the scripture from 2 Corinthians 5:17-19 showing the Apostles were given the ministry of reconciliation. Where do you think the Apostles went? Did not John himself end up on one of the islands of the sea?
By the way, can you tell me, who is the Root of Jesse?
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Good afternoon, Niblo.
I agree with your opening statements here, only like much of Christian scholarship I feel it is the Masoretic that was the one introducing the biases and agendas. The Septuagint was a much earlier reading, and preserves the original text of Psalm 22 before the Jews rewrote it to make David day something other than what he actually said, and it reads like this:
All that saw me mocked me: they spoke with [their] lips, they shook the head, [saying], "He hoped in the Lord. Let Him deliver him. Let him save him, because He takes pleasure in him." For thou art he that drew me out of the womb; my hope from my mother's breasts. I was cast on thee from the womb. Thou art my God from my mother's belly. Stand not aloof from me; for affliction is near; for there is no helper. Many bullocks have compassed me: fat bulls have beset me round. They have opened their mouth against me, as a ravening and roaring lion. I am poured out like water, and all my bones are loosened. My heart in the midst of my belly is become like melting wax. My strength is dried up, like a potsherd; and my tongue is glued to my throat; and thou hast brought me down to the dust of death. For many dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked doers has beset me round: they pierced my hands and my feet. (Psalm 22:7-15)
_____________________________
New Testament verses:
41 In the same way, the chief priests, scribes, and elders mocked Him, saying, 42 “He saved others, but He cannot save Himself. He is the King of Israel! Let Him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in Him. 43 He trusts in God. Let God deliver Him now if He wants Him." (Matthew 27:41-43)
So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he replied, “Unless I see the nail marks in His hands, and put my finger where the nails have been, and put my hand into His side, I will never believe.” (John 20:25)
- May 16, 2021
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So here we have the posts from a doubting Thomas , Niblo . The Son of God is still there for you Niblo .
I was never given a chance to be a doubting Thomas after my conversion to following Jesus , Praise God !
Before I left the front of the church where I was born again I was given the gift of speaking in tongues .
I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Jesus I had been told about and read about was the Son of God !
The truths revealed in the Bible are just that , truth ! It all works as is said in the bible .
I pray and my prayers are answered . I have seen my daughter healed twice after prayer .
I have seen my life and the life of my family spared from a horrible accident , again I prayed and was delivered .
My prayer was simply this "Lord Jesus !"
Niblo---
You make these points about what the Jews would or would not have done based on their Law. They didn't care about the Law. They wanted to crucify Jesus and kill him and had wanted to do this ever since Jesus came on the scene. Here is just one instance where the Law was broken by the High Priest:
"Then the high priest TORE HIS CLOTHES and said, “He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy" (Matt. 26:65)
“’The high priest, the one among his brothers who has had the anointing oil poured on his head and who has been ordained to wear the priestly garments, must not let his hair become unkempt or TEAR HIS CLOTHES". (Leviticus 21:10)
The fact that Jesus was crucified, and rose from the dead is clearly shown by his Apostles and disciples willingness to DIE rather than renounce that fact. No man will DIE for a fairy tale when it comes to that ultimate moment. All (12) of the Apostles were willing to do so though----and many hundreds more who had seen Jesus after he rose from the dead. 1 Cor. 15 says that over 500 people saw him in his resurrected body. The fact that all of these followers would rather die than renounce what they believed is VERY STRONG EVIDENCE that a crucifixion and Resurrection most assuredly occurred.
ezrider
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Niblo
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Hi Fish.
I agree. There is no doubt that certain Jews wanted Yeshua dead; but not for the reasons given in the Gospels; and not by crucifixion.
Consider the ‘Talmud Bavli’ (‘Babylonian Talmud’):
Celsus, a polemic writer against Christians, produced his ‘Logos Alēthēs’ (‘The True Word’) between the years 175 and 180 CE. Around 240 CE, a copy was given to Origen of Alexandria, one of the most influential scholars in the early Church.
The original text of ‘Logos Alēthēs’ has been lost, but scholars have been able to reconstruct much of it, thanks to Origen’s many citations.
Origen writes (my emphases):
‘He (Celsus) also introduces an imaginary character (a Jew) who addresses childish remarks to Jesus and says nothing worthy of a philosopher’s grey hairs…. After this he represents the Jew as having a conversation with Jesus himself and refuting him on many charges, as he thinks: first, because he (Jesus) fabricated the story of his birth from a virgin; and he reproaches him because he came from a Jewish village and from a poor country woman who earned her living by spinning. He (Celsus) says that she was driven out by her husband, who was a carpenter by trade, as she was convicted of adultery.’ (‘Contra Celsus – Book 1; Chapter 28’).
In Chapter 32 of his work, Origen writes:
‘Let us return, however, to the words put into the mouth of the Jew, where the mother of Jesus is described as having been turned out by the carpenter who was betrothed to her, "as she had been convicted of adultery and had a child by a certain soldier named Panthera”’.
Henry Chadwick, in his translation of the ‘Contra Celsus, writes:
‘The title Jesus ben Panthera is not uncommon in the Talmud……. Eusebius, commenting on Hos. v. 14 (‘Return, Israel, to the Lord your God. Your sins have been your downfall!’) says: ‘The text may be quoted against those of the circumcision who slanderously and abusively assert that our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ was born of Panthera Epiphanius’
When preparing his book ‘Jesus in the Talmud, Peter Schäfer – a noted scholar in the field of ancient Judaism and early Christianity, and one-time Ronald O. Perelman Professor of Judaic Studies at Princeton University – drew on fourteen Talmud manuscripts (both censored and uncensored); along with two printed versions; the Soncino (1484-1519) and the Vilna (1880-1886).
For our purposes, the uncensored tracts are of particular relevance. The oldest used by Schäfer are the Firenze II-I-7-9; an Ashkenazi manuscript of 1177 CE; and the Herzog 1; a Yemeni manuscript of c1565 CE.
Schäfer writes:
‘The (Babylonian) Talmud seems to be convinced that (Yeshua’s) true father was Pandera, his mother’s lover, and that he was a b*****d in the full sense of the word.’ (‘Jesus in the Talmud’).
Referring to the tractate ‘Sanhedrin 43’, Schäfer continues:
‘With the sixth chapter (“Jesus’ Execution”) we return to the fate of Jesus himself. Here, a quite elaborate story – again only in the Babylonian Talmud – details the halakhic procedure of Jesus’ trial and execution: Jesus was not crucified but, according to Jewish law, stoned to death and then, as the ultimate post-mortem punishment reserved for the worst criminals, hanged on a tree. This took place on the eve of Passover, which happened to be Sabbath eve (Friday). The reason for his execution was because he was convicted of sorcery and of enticing Israel into idolatry.’ (‘Jesus in the Talmud’; my emphases).
The fact that certain people hold certain beliefs – and are prepared to die rather than deny them – does
not, of itself, validate those beliefs.
As for Paul’s claim that a collective of five hundred people saw Yeshua after his resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:3-5)…….
In one of his Blogs, Bart Ehrman writes:
‘Paul did know both Peter and James, and so presumably they told him that they had had visions of Jesus. He knew lots of other Christians who either were Christians before he was or who knew Christians who were Christians before he was. Or who were later Christians who had heard stories that were allegedly told by Christians who were Christians before he was.
‘So where did Paul get his information from? Maybe Peter. Maybe James. Maybe other Christians. Maybe a combination of them all. I doubt if he “made up” the idea of “500 brothers” at one time out of whole cloth.
‘My sense is that rumours of these sorts of things circulate all the time – as with the appearances of the Blessed Virgin Mary in modern times, as she is attested as appearing to 1000 people at once in some times and places. Do I think this is evidence that she really did appear to these people? No, not really. Same with Paul. There were stories about such appearances, and he believed them.’
By the way, Ehrman states that:
‘There was almost certainly no Christian group (meaning: a group of people who believed Jesus was raised from the dead) of that size in Paul’s day anywhere in the world!’
He references his book ‘The Triumph of Christianity’.
It’s only right to point out, by the way, that in a second blog, Ehrman writes:
‘The crucifixion of Jesus by the Romans is one of the most secure facts we have about his life.’
Blessings.
Niblo
2024 Supporter
- Aug 16, 2019
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Good afternoon, Hidden.
Concerning the Septuagint:
Dr. Bruce M. Metzger – George L. Collord Professor of New Testament Language and Literature, Emeritus, at Princeton Theological Seminary – writes:
‘By the end of the first century of the Christian era, more and more Jews ceased using the Septuagint because the early Christians had adopted it as their own translation. At an early stage, the belief developed that this translation had been divinely inspired, and hence the way was open for several church fathers to claim that the Septuagint presented the words of God more accurately than the Hebrew Bible. The fact that after the first century very, very few Christians had any knowledge of the Hebrew language meant that the Septuagint was not only the church’s main source of the Old Testament but was, in fact, its only source. The earliest copies of the Septuagint, being made by hand, would soon come to differ among themselves, according to the judgment and accuracy of the scribe making them.
‘Eventually, the text became so unreliable that in the third century Origen made a heroic attempt to purify it.’ (‘The Bible in Translation: Ancient and English Versions’; my emphases).
Dr. Metzger is referring to Origen’s ‘Hexapla’.
Concerning the ‘Hexapla’, the Encyclopaedia Brittanica states that:
‘For some books, including the Psalms, Origen presented as many as three additional Greek texts from unknown sources.
‘The entire work took 20 years to complete and may have filled 7,000 pages. It was available in Caesarea until about 600 and was consulted by many scholars, including Jerome in preparing for his Vulgate translation. The fate of the great work is not known, but it survives in fragments copied in old manuscripts, in quotations in the works of various Church Fathers, and in several editions of its Septuagint column—which, because scribes often copied the critical marks incorrectly or left them out, introduced some confusion into the text of the Septuagint.’
Concerning the Masoretic Text:
The Armstrong Institute of Biblical Archaeology states that:
‘The Masoretic Text is widely accepted as the authoritative text of the Hebrew Bible. It is the basis for the Jewish Publication Society’s translation of the Tanakh, as well as most Protestant Christian versions, including the monumental Authorized King James Version of 1611.
‘However, many scholars today question its accuracy. After all, the Hebrew Bible was originally penned by nearly 40 different authors between the 15th and 5th centuries b.c.e., a period of roughly 1,000 years. That means the oldest books in the canon, the Torah and the book of Job, have been passed down for over 3,000 years—most of that time laboriously copied out by hand.
‘To a certain extent, the skeptics have a point. Not enough manuscripts have survived, especially from the time period of the earliest biblical texts, to prove that every word of the Masoretic manuscripts matches the original text. The Dead Sea Scrolls are the earliest significant biblical manuscript, and these date as early as the third and second centuries b.c.e. A few fragments have survived from much earlier than that, but nothing large enough to provide a significant standard for textual comparison. The earliest complete copy of the Hebrew Bible is the Leningrad Codex, a document based on the Masoretic Text, but this only dates as early as c.e. 1008.
‘Does that mean we should assume our modern biblical text is faulty, unreliable and filled with textual errors compounded over thousands of years of transmission? Not at all.
‘The Masoretic Text, universally considered the authoritative Hebrew manuscript, can be assumed reliable unless solid evidence proves otherwise – not the other way around. Disagree with this basic premise, and one must consider not only the Bible, but our entire textual record of the ancient world, unreliable.
‘The Masoretic Text should be regarded as the most accurately copied manuscript in human history. Has any other book from antiquity formed the political, religious and legal core of a whole nation?
‘Taking all this into account, the Masoretic Text should not be considered unreliable because it contradicts certain older extant manuscripts. Since plenty of evidence attests to the unimpeachability of its scribal tradition, the Masoretic Text should be the standard of comparison. We should compare these manuscripts to the Masoretic Text, and not the other way around. Further, certain very early discoveries have been emerging ‘over the past several decades, including the “earliest Scriptures” ever discovered, corroborating specifically the Masoretic version of text!’ (From the March-April 2022 issue of the ‘Let the Stones Speak’ magazine; published by the Institute’; my emphasis).
In an online article entitled ‘Septuagint or Masoretic Text: Which Is the True Version of the Bible?’ – published on the 7th of June 2023 – Rory Fox writes:
‘Arguments about preferences for the Septuagint or Hebrew version of Scripture have gone on for centuries. They have divided saints and they have split Churches. This is because they have typically taken the form of a zero-sum question, forcing an either/or which pitches the Septuagint against the MT Hebrew Bible. For one text to be “true” was for the other to be “false.”’
Whatever version we chose to follow, the fact remains that the authors of the crucifixion narratives relied exclusively on their interpretation of various Tanakh passages; introducing into those passages their own presuppositions, agendas, or biases.
Continued:
Niblo
2024 Supporter
- Aug 16, 2019
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Under the influence of Herman Gunkel – a German Tanakh scholar and founder of form criticism – psalms are characterised according to their genre. Psalm 22 is regarded as an ‘individual complaint song’; or lament.
The New Jerusalem Bible declares that in such psalms:
‘An effort is made to win God’s sympathy by a description of the psalmist’s misfortunes. Here conventional figures of speech are used, so that it is rarely possible to define the historical or personal background of the prayer: waters of the abyss, snares of death or of Sheol, savage beasts (lions, bulls, dogs) symbolising the psalmist’s enemies, bones that grow dry or break, heart wildly beating and overcome with fear; all these conventional images recur.’
Robert M. Price writes:
‘The crucifixion scene in Mark 15 is essentially a narrative fleshing out of Psalm 22. All the major “bullet-points” come from that psalm, though Mark never calls attention to his source. He says nothing to imply these “events” are fulfilments of some prediction encoded in Psalm 22.’ (‘Holy Fable Volume 2: The Gospels and Acts Undistorted by Faith’).
The surname of my paternal great-grandfather was Mundy. He worked at Fernhill Colliery, in Blaenrhondda (South Wales Valleys) and died underground, having been kicked in the head by a horse.
Image that you have asked me to write an account of his death.
I have no eyewitnesses; no contemporary letters, or newspaper reports, to draw upon.
To meet your request, I fashion my reply around the written experiences of someone who lived around one thousand years before my great-grandfather was born.
How much credence would you give to my story?
Ahhh, you might well be thinking; apples and pears. The Psalm 22 is a not just an account of one man’s suffering, it is a prophecy.
We both know, of course, that the Psalm does not make this claim.
Robert M. Price writes:
‘If you want to be convinced by “messianic prophecy,” it helps to be as ignorant as possible, and to be sure to read the passages with no reference to historical or literary context…….Strobel, like all apologists, cites “They have pierced my hands and feet” (22:16b) as a prediction of the nail-wounds of crucifixion, but the reference makes more sense in context as bite - and claw-wounds incurred by the sufferer as he tries to fend off the wild animals snapping at him (22:16a), the symbols of his real-life dilemmas.’ (‘The Case Against the Case For Christ: A New Testament Scholar Refutes the Reverend Lee Strobel’).
Blessings.
The New Jerusalem Bible declares that in such psalms:
‘An effort is made to win God’s sympathy by a description of the psalmist’s misfortunes. Here conventional figures of speech are used, so that it is rarely possible to define the historical or personal background of the prayer: waters of the abyss, snares of death or of Sheol, savage beasts (lions, bulls, dogs) symbolising the psalmist’s enemies, bones that grow dry or break, heart wildly beating and overcome with fear; all these conventional images recur.’
Robert M. Price writes:
‘The crucifixion scene in Mark 15 is essentially a narrative fleshing out of Psalm 22. All the major “bullet-points” come from that psalm, though Mark never calls attention to his source. He says nothing to imply these “events” are fulfilments of some prediction encoded in Psalm 22.’ (‘Holy Fable Volume 2: The Gospels and Acts Undistorted by Faith’).
The surname of my paternal great-grandfather was Mundy. He worked at Fernhill Colliery, in Blaenrhondda (South Wales Valleys) and died underground, having been kicked in the head by a horse.
Image that you have asked me to write an account of his death.
I have no eyewitnesses; no contemporary letters, or newspaper reports, to draw upon.
To meet your request, I fashion my reply around the written experiences of someone who lived around one thousand years before my great-grandfather was born.
How much credence would you give to my story?
Ahhh, you might well be thinking; apples and pears. The Psalm 22 is a not just an account of one man’s suffering, it is a prophecy.
We both know, of course, that the Psalm does not make this claim.
Robert M. Price writes:
‘If you want to be convinced by “messianic prophecy,” it helps to be as ignorant as possible, and to be sure to read the passages with no reference to historical or literary context…….Strobel, like all apologists, cites “They have pierced my hands and feet” (22:16b) as a prediction of the nail-wounds of crucifixion, but the reference makes more sense in context as bite - and claw-wounds incurred by the sufferer as he tries to fend off the wild animals snapping at him (22:16a), the symbols of his real-life dilemmas.’ (‘The Case Against the Case For Christ: A New Testament Scholar Refutes the Reverend Lee Strobel’).
Blessings.
Niblo
2024 Supporter
- Aug 16, 2019
- 507
- 389
Hi Hawkman.
Then you are blessed.
I, too have received the gift of tongues. This was many years ago, after I became an enemy of God, following my mother's death from leukaemia. She was just 46. If I had the power, I would have wiped all memory of God from the Earth.
Long story short, I was challenged - by an evangelical colleague - to approach God in prayer on one particular evening. I agreed...simply for the chance to prove my colleague wrong.
In the darkness of my room, I raised a challenge to God. I remember it well.....being pushed to my knees by a gentle, but irresistible, force. I was made to see myself for what I had become....a horrible, self-centred, hateful person.
I began to speak aloud, in a language I could not understated. I was beaten.....but I was also loved. The memory is vivid.
I approached my colleague the following day, but before I could say a word, he flung his arms around me in joy. He told me that he could see by my face that what he had hoped for had truly happened.
Blessings.
- May 16, 2021
- 8,011
- 5,460
Much more than I deserve .
Is the gift of tongues still active in your life now ? As the Holy Spirit gives the utterance .
Niblo
2024 Supporter
- Aug 16, 2019
- 507
- 389
No. It was just on that one occasion. Not to be forgotten. I was a nasty piece of work....but thought I was so very clever. To have the truth revealed in such a manner...and with such clarity...was my 'Saul of Tarsus' moment. No vision, just a terrible awareness of self.
Blessings.
- Apr 2, 2003
- 23,683
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Yes.
That is begging the question. First, just because they are largely considered anonymous, based on the fact that they didn't name themselves, does not mean they weren't eyewitnesses. Second, even if they weren't eyewitnesses, it doesn't follow that they didn't interview eyewitnesses.
Luk 1:1 Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile a narrative of the things that have been accomplished among us,
Luk 1:2 just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word have delivered them to us,
Luk 1:3 it seemed good to me also, having followed all things closely for some time past, to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus,
Luk 1:4 that you may have certainty concerning the things you have been taught. (ESV)
They are certainly eyewitness testimonies of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus.
Likely earlier.
It's interesting that you used "plagiarised," in what seems to be a purposeful attempt to discredit the Matthew and Luke. But, that is also fallaciously begging the question. That those two gospels seemed to have used Mark as a source is likely, but that doesn't mean the authors plagiarised.
No, there is every reason to believe they are intended to portray the truth.
None of this shows that the gospel accounts are false or that there is even any difficulty within them. Jesus is the most unique figure in history, the one and only Son of God. How Pilate dealt with him and the Jews wanting Jesus dead could very well have been different than how he normally dealt with others.
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