The BEFORE and the AFTER of being born-again

[John Zain]

- BEFORE --------------------- BORN AGAIN ------ AFTER
• man is NOT able to choose -- due to: ------- • man IS able to choose
- spiritual life (Note-1) ---- God’s gift of --- spiritual life (Note-4)
• God chose (elected) -------- grace-faith --- • man chooses to be fully
- whomever He wished --------- (Note 3)--------- sanctified (or not to be)
- (Note-2) ------------------------------------- (Note-5)

Note-1
Man is unnable to choose spiritual life because:
-- he is spiritually blind and deaf … Matthew 13:13-15, John 9:39, John 12:37-40.
-- he is spiritually dead in his trespasses and sins … Eph 2:1-5, Eph 4:18, Colossians 2:13.
-- he is at enmity with God (an enemy of God) … Romans 8:7, Ephesians 2:15-16.
-- he sees the gospel as utter foolishness … 1 Corinthians 1:18.

Note-2
The people God elected were chosen according to His foreknowledge … 1 Peter 1:1-2.
He predestined them and chose them before the foundation of the world … Ephesians 1:4-5.
The election of grace had nothing to do with any of the OT-type of works … Romans 11:5-6.
He predestined according to His purpose and according to His will … Ephesians 1:11.
His choice was by mercy and compassion, not by what anyone had done … Romans 9:15-16.
He had mercy on whom He wished, and He hardened whom He wished … Romans 9:18.
He prepared vessels of mercy beforehand, and called them, all for His glory … Romans 9:23.
Those whom had been appointed to eternal life believe in the gospel … Acts 13:48.
IMO, our English word “believe” in the NT really means: believe, trust, follow, and obey.
Those who make it through to the end are the called, chosen, and faithful … Rev 17:14.

Note-3
Jesus said that one needs to be born-again to be in the kingdom of God … John 3:3-5.
God accomplishes this by giving His gift of grace-faith to some … Ephesians 2:8-9.
And He gives (draws) these ones to Jesus … John 6:37-65, 10:29, 17:2, 17:9, 17:24.
This enables them to believe, be born-again, receive eternal life … John 3:16, 3:36, 5:24.
They have been given the Holy Spirit to live inside of them … John 14:16-17,14:26; Rom 8:11
… 1 Corinthians 3:16; Galatians 4:6; 2 Timothy 1:14; 1 John 3:24; 1 John 4:12-16.
They have been born-again with an incorruptible seed … 1 Peter 1:23.
They are a new creation in Christ … 2 Corinthians 5:17.

Note-4
Man is able to choose to continue his spiritual life because he has the Holy Spirit
inside of him … leading, guiding, teaching, revealing spiritual truth, etc.

Note-5
The elect were chosen “for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit” … 2 Thess 2:13.
Man is required to be progressively sanctified … Rom 8:14; 1 Cor 1:18; Heb 2:11, 10:14.
IMO, every redeemed born-again person has undergone some of the sanctification process,
but he/she really needs to co-operate with God’s Spirit in being sanctified unto holiness.

The big question
What are we to think about those who refuse to co-operate with the Holy Spirit in sanctification?
There is a long list of serious warnings to the churches, such as:
the disobedient are shut out ---- believing in vain --- being disqualified
the lukewarm are rejected ------ practicing sin ------ not continuing in the faith
living according to the flesh ----- falling away ------- not being an overcomer
falling as in OT disobedience examples -------------- w/o holiness no one will see the Lord
not working out salvation with fear and trembling --- not remaining steadfast to the end
excluded from the kingdom of God (those subject to the Lord and in fellowship with Him)

And Jesus’ warnings in the gospels
The narrow way leading to eternal life is difficult, and few find it … Matthew 7:14.
Those who do the will of Father God shall enter the kingdom of heaven … Matthew 7:21.
Deny yourself (your soulish life) and follow Jesus to find eternal life ... Matthew 16:24-26.
If you do not forgive, Father God will not forgive your trespasses … Mark 11:25-26.
He who loves his life in this world will lose eternal life … John 12:25.
And there are many other “hard sayings of Jesus”

Conditional security?
What’s with these warnings? Are they serious? Can a born-again Christian lose salvation?

Explanation
Some Scriptures appear to go against the above, but often they refer only to the elect.
Was Paul writing specifically to the “faithful” brethren? … Ephesians 1:1, Colossians 1:2.
If “believe” in the NT really means to believe, trust, follow, and obey
… then perhaps “whosoever believes” are really only the elect.

 

[gr8grace]

I think that this whole post is related Matt 7:15-23. It has a lot of scriptures and is neat and well thought out, It has all the Christian cliches. But it rejects what Matt 7:21 commands. It does NOT do the will of The Father. John 6:40.

Matthew 7:15-23, – “Beware of the false prophets who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16) “You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes, nor figs from thistles, are they? 17) “Even so, every good tree bears good fruit; but the bad tree bears
bad fruit. 18) “A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19) “Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20) “So then, you will know them by their fruits. 21) “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. 22) “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23) “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

(Lordship salvation) “You will know them by their fruits” means one’s eternal status can be determined by his behavior.
A good tree [true believer] cannot produce bad fruit [wickedness] nor can a bad tree [unbeliever] produce good fruit [good works]. Every tree [professing Christian] that does not bear good fruit [good works] will be thrown into the fire [go to hell]. 21) “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. Those who profess to be Christians but do not do the will of the Father producing good works will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

(Grace postion ME): This is about unbelieving false prophets who look, talk, and act like believers but aren’t.
You will know them by their fruits . . . these are unbelievers and their fruits are what they say, their false doctrines, not their outward appearance or behavior. A good tree [true prophet] cannot produce bad fruit [give false doctrine], nor can a bad tree [false prophet] produce good fruit [give true doctrine]. “Not
everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven [there are those who claim to believe in Christ but are lying] but he who does the will of My Father [the will of the Father is to believe in Christ, John 6:40] who is in heaven.

To follow the WILL of the Father one needs to BELIEVE it . And this OP is not based on the Will of the Father. And in John 6:40 the word "believes" is not the same "believes" that this OP is operating under.

the "believes" in the John 6:40 is...pisteuw o to have faith in a person or thing (Christ) There is NOTHING in that word that says obey,follow.....it simply says "faith"

Faith Only for Salvation Verses: Jn 1:12, 3:15-18, 3:36, 5:24, 6:40, 6:47, 11:25-26, 12:46, Acts 16:30-31, Rom 1:16, 3:22:28, 4:2-6, 4:24, 6:23, Gal 2:16, 3:26, Eph 2:8-9, 1 Tm 1:16, Tit 3:5, 1 Jn 5:13.

2
ANY SCRIPTURE THAT REQUIRES ANYTHING OTHER THAN FAITH FOR SALVATION IS NOT REFERRING TO ETERNAL SALVATION (GOING TO HEAVEN) BUT TO SOME OTHER TYPE OF DELIVERANCE
The New Testament is full of warnings to believers to grow up spiritually, 2 Peter 3:16, to stand firm for the faith, 1 Cor. 16:13, to hold fast their confidence, Heb. 10:35, to do good works, Col. 1:10, etc. Failure to comply with these mandates will result in loss of rewards, but this does not mean anyone loses their eternal salvation or that they are unsaved because they had a faulty or fake faith in Christ.

Confusion reigns when one fails to recognize the difference between Justification or Positional Sanctification which happens to every believer the moment they believe in Christ and Experiential Sanctification which mature believers achieve by learning and applying God’s Word after they are saved. These mature believers are the ones who redeem the time by producing Divine Good to be rewarded at the Judgment Seat of Christ, 1 Cor. 12:13-15. Believers who fail to produce Divine Good will lose heavenly rewards but will never lose eternal life in Christ.

So whats with these warnings? If we do not use EISEGESIS And use EXEGESIS most of the verses you use are for EXPERIENTIAL sanctification and NOT POSITIONAL sanctification.(rewards or blessings lost) NOT SALVATION!!!

They are serious, if we follow Grace we get blessed beyond imagination. But if we preach lordship salvation (but at some point had faith alone) rewards and blessing are lost.

Can born again Christians lose salvation? absolutely , positively, with out a doubt, NO NOT EVER!!

For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:38-39)


Jesus Christ is eternal life. Being in union with Him means we share His life as stated in 1 John 5:11-13. We also share His divine righteousness as in 2 Corinthians 5:21.

And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life. (1 John 5:11-13)

He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. (2 Corinthians 5:21)

 

[Deborah13]

Excellant post Jarrod. Bless you.

 

[ivdavid]

the "believes" in the John 6:40 is...pisteuw o to have faith in a person or thing (Christ) There is NOTHING in that word that says obey,follow.....it simply says "faith"

Of course, it simply says "faith" - but as James puts forth, obedience to God's will is an evidential indicator of our faith. If Abraham had not obeyed God's will in preparing to sacrifice Isaac, it would have been evidence of Abraham not having faith in God. Man acts according to his beliefs - If I tell a man that he's drowning in the middle of the ocean and he does not immediately flap his arms about trying to stay afloat, it shows that he hasn't believed me. So, true faith is distinguished from a fake professing faith by one's walk in Christ(fruits) - there may be much backsliding but never a complete falling away, for God preserves us in the faith of His Son. And if it be such that some fall away completely, then that is evidence of such never having had any true faith in God at any point in time. And obviously, nobody is saved on the merit of his obedience(fruits) but rather on the finished work of Christ alone that he clings on to(faith).

And both you and the OP seem to be saying the same thing on eternal security - are you agreeing with the OP in all you've written?(Because it seems as if you are disagreeing with the OP when it too is upholding eternal security).

 

[Agape]

Note-4
Man is able to choose to continue his spiritual life because he has the Holy Spirit
inside of him … leading, guiding, teaching, revealing spiritual truth, etc.

Scripture please.

 

[gr8grace]

Of course, it simply says "faith" - but as James puts forth, obedience to God's will is an evidential indicator of our faith. If Abraham had not obeyed God's will in preparing to sacrifice Isaac, it would have been evidence of Abraham not having faith in God. Man acts according to his beliefs - If I tell a man that he's drowning in the middle of the ocean and he does not immediately flap his arms about trying to stay afloat, it shows that he hasn't believed me. So, true faith is distinguished from a fake professing faith by one's walk in Christ(fruits) - there may be much backsliding but never a complete falling away, for God preserves us in the faith of His Son. And if it be such that some fall away completely, then that is evidence of such never having had any true faith in God at any point in time. And obviously, nobody is saved on the merit of his obedience(fruits) but rather on the finished work of Christ alone that he clings on to(faith).

And both you and the OP seem to be saying the same thing on eternal security - are you agreeing with the OP in all you've written?(Because it seems as if you are disagreeing with the OP when it too is upholding eternal security).

Not even close. Here is what the OP says about Eternal security. This is a quote from Him.

Revelation 21:
7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.
8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral,
sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake
which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

We have a problem ...
Born-again Christians who are habitual liars will be thrown into the lake of fire!

Best they co-operate with the Holy Spirit and get rid of this weakness.
Anyone like to see the other verses that warn against this sin,
which God twice calls an abomination?

 

[gr8grace]

Of course, it simply says "faith" - but as James puts forth, obedience to God's will is an evidential indicator of our faith. If Abraham had not obeyed God's will in preparing to sacrifice Isaac, it would have been evidence of Abraham not having faith in God. Man acts according to his beliefs - If I tell a man that he's drowning in the middle of the ocean and he does not immediately flap his arms about trying to stay afloat, it shows that he hasn't believed me. So, true faith is distinguished from a fake professing faith by one's walk in Christ(fruits) - there may be much backsliding but never a complete falling away, for God preserves us in the faith of His Son. And if it be such that some fall away completely, then that is evidence of such never having had any true faith in God at any point in time. And obviously, nobody is saved on the merit of his obedience(fruits) but rather on the finished work of Christ alone that he clings on to(faith).

And both you and the OP seem to be saying the same thing on eternal security - are you agreeing with the OP in all you've written?(Because it seems as if you are disagreeing with the OP when it too is upholding eternal security).

Well I believe that it works a little different than that. If I tell a man that he Is drowning in the middle of the ocean and he believes me, I remove the ocean.

 

[John Zain]

About 20 years ago, a world-wide evangelist did some thorough research
on pisteo ("believe" in the English NT),
and came away convinced that is means: to believe, trust, follow, obey.
I trust his conclusions.

IMO, what Jesus thinks of lukewarm Christians (in Rev 3:16) reflects the above.

And we have another "coincidental" 3:16 ... give me a break!
Our incredible God had His hands all over the formation of our Bible.

Born-again Christians who have habitual sin in their lives are in great danger!
If they were to die in this condition, they would be discarded.
(Regardless of exactly what pisteo in the NT means) ... no IMO here ... this is a fact.

 

[Deborah13]

And Jesus’ warnings in the gospels
The narrow way leading to eternal life is difficult, and few find it … Matthew 7:14.
Those who do the will of Father God shall enter the kingdom of heaven … Matthew 7:21.
Deny yourself (your soulish life) and follow Jesus to find eternal life ... Matthew 16:24-26.
If you do not forgive, Father God will not forgive your trespasses … Mark 11:25-26.
He who loves his life in this world will lose eternal life … John 12:25.
And there are many other “hard sayings of Jesus”

We need to remember that what you call hard sayings are only hard unless you have been taught differently. I'd like to suggest that you take Mark 11:25-26 and determine what the OT says about this. Jesus was talking almost exclusively to the Jews throughout the 4 Gospels many of the things He said did not match up with their teachings. Take adultery, it was not just an act as they supposed but even lust in the heart. Which in this day and age would include such things as pornagraphy in mags., internet, etc. and be just as destructive to a marriage as the actual act. So Jesus was stretching the limits to show them that they could not fullfil (and I'm sure many of the Pharisees had not fulfilled even this one) the Law and that if they were going to mandate others to the Law they had better smarten up. He was setting the stage for pure Grace.

 

[WIP]

Let's stay on topic lest this thread be closed.

 

[cupid dave]

Let's stay on topic lest this thread be closed.

Yes, this is good to thik about.

The list of before and after seems forced and denominational but it fails mostly because it does not hypothesize just what tgis experience is.

Nicodemus said: How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

Thisrtells us that Jesus was talking about an experience where one clearly dies and then is born again in this same life.
It very much suggests the Near Death Experience where men have asked for centuries, "Have you seen the light?"

The well documented NDE now is clearly a hypothesis welcome on the table of ideas as the explanation for what Jesus was talking about.
This experience seems to have allowed the person to "see the kingdom of God."

The "before" situation is that a person has g=heard the pastors, ministers, and priest,.
He has read the bible.
He may believe all that he has heard.
He may believe what I write here.

But unless he submit to the baptism as rendered by John he does not change, until held under until the near death actually kills him, but he is sent back.
Then he KNOWS.
He was there, he did that.

Better, Jesus said, that men baptize their feet than chance the accident which got John arrested and beheaded.
Better to have faith in what they hear and what is written.

 

[John Zain]

Note-4
Man is able to choose to continue his spiritual life because he has the Holy Spirit
inside of him … leading, guiding, teaching, revealing spiritual truth, etc.

Scripture please.

John 14:16-26 ...
One who is born-again has the Holy Spirit inside of him/her, teaching him/her all things.

He/she has the option of doing this becuse he/she IS born-again.
Normal man does not have this option because he/she does not have the Holy Spirit.

 

[Agape]

John 14:16-26 ...
One who is born-again has the Holy Spirit inside of him/her, teaching him/her all things.

He/she has the option of doing this becuse he/she IS born-again.
Normal man does not have this option because he/she does not have the Holy Spirit.

Thanks John, but what do you mean by the "option of doing this"? Doesn't the Spirit take up residence in the believer's life at salvation? (Rom. 8:9,14; 1 Cor. 6:19; Eph. 1:13-14; 2 Tim 1:14; 1 John 2:27, 3:24,4:13)

 

[ivdavid]

Here is what the OP says about Eternal security. This is a quote from Him.
"Born-again Christians who are habitual liars will be thrown into the lake of fire!"

Is this quote from some other thread? If so, I've misread the ambiguously worded OP in this thread and I'd obviously agree with your stance on eternal security.

If I tell a man that he Is drowning in the middle of the ocean and he believes me, I remove the ocean.

This was only meant to show that a man acts according to what he believes - not the effects of such belief. If God promises Abraham His eternal covenant in Isaac and Abraham does believe it, then he would naturally sacrifice Isaac when commanded by God as a consequent act arising of such faith, wouldn't you agree? This is the point I'm trying to make here - not that Abraham is saved only because of his acts of obedience and that if he hadn't obeyed, God would have forsaken him. Man's acts of faithlessness too is compensated for by God's preserving grace.

 

[gr8grace]

Is this quote from some other thread? If so, I've misread the ambiguously worded OP in this thread and I'd obviously agree with your stance on eternal security.


This was only meant to show that a man acts according to what he believes - not the effects of such belief. If God promises Abraham His eternal covenant in Isaac and Abraham does believe it, then he would naturally sacrifice Isaac when commanded by God as a consequent act arising of such faith, wouldn't you agree? This is the point I'm trying to make here - not that Abraham is saved only because of his acts of obedience and that if he hadn't obeyed, God would have forsaken him. Man's acts of faithlessness too is compensated for by God's preserving grace.

I only meant to show that God acts according to what He has promised. My focus is God not man, and what God promised if we believe on His Son.

And yes that was posted from a different thread, so I had a easier time "reading between the lines"

 

[cupid dave]

John 14:16-26 ...
One who is born-again has the Holy Spirit inside of him/her, teaching him/her all things.

He/she has the option of doing this becuse he/she IS born-again.
Normal man does not have this option because he/she does not have the Holy Spirit.

What I understand is that we must be Born Again in order to see the kingdom of Heaven.

But in John 14, the entire chapter concerns the identification of Christ with the concept of Truth, as a personified Ideal that men can seek and acquire and accept and abide by along the way of their life.


17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

 

[Deborah13]

So would I be correct in saying that your doctrine is that mans salvation onto eternal life = irresistible grace + faith + works ??

Could you give your answer that simply for my benefit and maybe some others as well? Thanks

 

[John Zain]

Thanks John, but what do you mean by the "option of doing this"? Doesn't the Spirit take up residence in the believer's life at salvation? (Rom. 8:9,14; 1 Cor. 6:19; Eph. 1:13-14; 2 Tim 1:14; 1 John 2:27, 3:24,4:13)

Yes, Note-4 is tricky.
By normal man, I meant unsaved man.

 

[John Zain]

So would I be correct in saying that your doctrine is that mans salvation onto eternal life = irresistible grace + faith + works ??
Could you give your answer that simply for my benefit and maybe some others as well? Thanks

Well, IMO, this describes ONLY the actual ELECT who make it through to the end ...

“And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God,
to those who are the called according to His purpose.
For whom He foreknew, He also predestined …
whom He predestined, these He also called;
whom He called, these He also justified;
and whom He justified, these He also glorified.” (Romans 8:28-30)

IMO, God’s elect are ...
foreknown >> predestined (chosen) >> called >> justified >> glorified

Elsewhere, we've been going through a LONG analysis of Hebrews 6:4-6
and the conclusion is ...
A BORN-AGAIN PERSON CAN FALL AWAY AND NOT BE SAVED.
I.E. he/she never was a part of the elect in Romans 8:29-30!

And, of course, this makes sense of and explains
... all of those serious warnings to the churches!

This is just another one of those important spiritual Truths,
which are "somewhat hidden" in the NT ... I have a list of about 7 so far.

 

[Deborah13]

OK you still have not clearly stated your doctrine in a way that I can understand it for sure to my understanding it is still ambiguous. So...

1. Do you believe in irresistible grace? Please do not quote scripture to answer the question, a simple yes or no is what is needed here.